The significance of Arihant

vstol Jockey

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Dec 1, 2017
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Where did i question the range? You are to yet prove that we bought S400 to cover our cities. but your link is proving otherwise (How it is to make up the shortage of fighters)


Yes, And IN gave the requirement to be around ~60 MRH currently (Last decade tender) We barely have half of it. It has to do with so many variables like the area to cover, availability etc. Not one to one relationship with subs.



According to you, if they have 5 subs then we should have 5 helicopters!


You describing only one mission of an attack submarine, Sea denial. All the other mission of hunting other surfaces/sub surface elements to

If SSBN is moving all the time isn't exposing itself? Also if its SSB in shallow waters then the same logic applies. It doesn't have to move.
Few things which members must know. A DE sub must lie in the approach path of a ship if it has to do a successful intercept. This ability of a sub is very well known and plotted on the chart of every ship as LLAs-Limiting lines of Approach. If a sub is outside the LLAs, it can never carry out a successful attack.
A DE sub must retain about 75-80% of its battery charge during the attack to be able to run away. And the moment they go above a speed of 6 kts, they create so much of sound underwater that ships can hear them from many 10s of miles. The game played by sub is that of wait and watch. It has to be in position or the pray must come to it. Take the case of INS Khukri, the ship went out hunting for the sub and the sub was waiting for them. Next is the case of Ghazi, sub was waiting and it feared that it has been detected and ran into its own mines.
There are many tactics followed by ships to fool a sub. Zig-zagging to deny a clear aiming point, high speed in sub infested areas, turn count masking and random dunking sonar searches by helicopters are few of them. Only SSNs can chase and attack a ship but for that they will need to travel at over 25-27 kts which again will create a sound underwater which will make them easy target.
The advent of missile firing subs has created problems for the ships but again the sub must have very clear target data to be able to fire the missile and for that it will need the support of someother platform-aircraft or ship or satellite.
We are giving far too many capabilities to DE subs here which they infect do not possess. Going thru the screen of a CBG during excercise is one thing and attacking it in reality is way another thing.
Aa far as India is concerned. We have been detecting Pak subs even by our satellites and that too as deep as 60meters. And our LOFAR sonobuoys have capability which probably noone else has. They detect soundwaves of such low frequency that on many occassions we have recorded the communication/sound of whales talking to eachother. Imagine at what distance they can pick out a sub!!.
 

hellbent

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Dec 4, 2017
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With Indian fishing still involved in bottom trawling if we had Sosus net I bet we would be seeing pictures of Sosus net and sensors pretty much every week. I like your optimism, but it doesn't drive our security establishment. We just bought diver detections net for our naval harbour in the last 2 years or so.

No

India has deployed deep sea hydrophone arrays , I have posted pics of same. Since a few years they are working on a laser based deep sea detection system ( don't confuse it with the laser based comms system which is publicly known to be under development )

2nd I have pics of another deep sea sensor , it is a standalone system meant to be operated in secrecy and very specific in its role , not to be confused with sosus type sensor. I will not reveal it's purpose.

3rd I suspect there is a jugaad type system based on certain info , I suspect it is deployed specifically in own waters . But I cannot confirm the existence of the same.

First 2 systems I am 100% sure , third system 1% sure.
 
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Chain Smoker

Well-Known member
Mar 2, 2020
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No

India has deployed deep sea hydrophone arrays , I have posted pics of same. Since a few years they are working on a laser based deep sea detection system ( don't confuse it with the laser based comms system which is publicly known to be under development )

2nd I have pics of another deep sea sensor , it is a standalone system meant to be operated in secrecy and very specific in its role , not to be confused with sosus type sensor. I will not reveal it's purpose.

3rd I suspect there is a jugaad type system based on certain info , I suspect it is deployed specifically in own waters . But I cannot confirm the existence of the same.

First 2 systems I am 100% sure , third system 1% sure.
Seabed array consisting of passive hydrophones, multiple arrays are interlinked via cables to form a networked grid .

Analogue to American fish hook underseas surveillance system though not as sophisticated as the American ones, but will get there someday.

Official name is P216 or something like that

Newer versions r online and active at strategic locations underseas

Old picture of old version
3fe9f9c5e775a.jpeg
 

hellbent

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
667
1,455
Seabed array consisting of passive hydrophones, multiple arrays are interlinked via cables to form a networked grid .

Analogue to American fish hook underseas surveillance system though not as sophisticated as the American ones, but will get there someday.

Official name is P216 or something like that

Newer versions r online and active at strategic locations underseas

Old picture of old version
View attachment 15183

Yes
 

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,791
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switzerland
Aa far as India is concerned. We have been detecting Pak subs even by our satellites and that too as deep as 60meters. And our LOFAR sonobuoys have capability which probably noone else has. They detect soundwaves of such low frequency that on many occassions we have recorded the communication/sound of whales talking to eachother. Imagine at what distance they can pick out a sub!!.

Would the Chinese and Pakistanis doing the same to detect Indian subs? Not very far, the British Navy has it's own naval base in Indian ocean as well.
 

Ymir

Active member
Mar 22, 2020
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108
Norway
I guess only typhoon class can launch a Ballistic missile while docked. No other submarine in the world can do this.

The picture shown is a Delta III - K-44 Ryazan.
8uh8splpg0o11.jpg


Delta IVs can do that.
(U)_DELTA IV.jpg


As can Typhoon.
Capture.PNG


In fact any submarine can. Hello down there, neighbors:p.
IMG_8315.jpg


Russia just trains its submarine crews on firing while docked. Other countries don't, but their submarines can. Russia also practices launching cruise missiles from submarines docked in port. They did so last year with one of their Yasen class submarines.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
Where did i question the range? You are to yet prove that we bought S400 to cover our cities. but your link is proving otherwise (How it is to make up the shortage of fighters)

What on earth are you talking about? I never said anything about S-400 covering cities or bases. Only that they can do BMD.

Yes, And IN gave the requirement to be around ~60 MRH currently (Last decade tender) We barely have half of it. It has to do with so many variables like the area to cover, availability etc. Not one to one relationship with subs.

Ever heard of China?

According to you, if they have 5 subs then we should have 5 helicopters!

Lol.

You describing only one mission of an attack submarine, Sea denial. Not all the other mission of hunting other surfaces/sub surface elements to ISR.

It doesn't matter what role. That's how SSKs operate.

If SSBN is moving all the time isn't exposing itself? Also if its SSB in shallow waters then the same logic applies. It doesn't have to move.

SSBN is moving in deep waters, that's different. SSB hiding or moving in shallow waters will make it vulnerable anyway. SSKs are smaller and have their own means of survival. SSB has to be this giant 5000-6000T behemoth that the Pakistanis cannot build anyway.

Dude, I seriously do not understand what's so confusing.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
Aa far as India is concerned. We have been detecting Pak subs even by our satellites and that too as deep as 60meters. And our LOFAR sonobuoys have capability which probably noone else has. They detect soundwaves of such low frequency that on many occassions we have recorded the communication/sound of whales talking to eachother. Imagine at what distance they can pick out a sub!!.

"Civilians" have no clue about the amount of advancements we have achieved when it comes to ASW.
 

Vicky

Rajaraja Chola
Dec 1, 2017
371
411
Canada
No

India has deployed deep sea hydrophone arrays , I have posted pics of same. Since a few years they are working on a laser based deep sea detection system ( don't confuse it with the laser based comms system which is publicly known to be under development )

2nd I have pics of another deep sea sensor , it is a standalone system meant to be operated in secrecy and very specific in its role , not to be confused with sosus type sensor. I will not reveal it's purpose.

3rd I suspect there is a jugaad type system based on certain info , I suspect it is deployed specifically in own waters . But I cannot confirm the existence of the same.

First 2 systems I am 100% sure , third system 1% sure.

If we do have such systems then I am glad and rest assured makes IN job easier. Are the hydrophone arrays networked in real time?
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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Nov 30, 2017
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What on earth are you talking about? I never said anything about S-400 covering cities or bases. Only that they can do BMD.
You Post #81
S-400 creates an area effect. 2 regiments can easily protect the whole of Delhi. The Russians use 5 regiments to protect Moscow.
My reply
I said SAM role, meaning it will not be deployed to secure Indian cities for that we have a separate BMD system. Indian military leadership has specifically mentioned on multiple occasions that S400 will be used to make up for the reduced number of fighter squadrons. Which all points to building an A2/AD network along the 3000 km border along with MRSAM and Akash.

Are you getting periodic blackouts or something?

Only that they can do BMD.
That is the only point I was making. It does not matter S400 has an 'unproven' BMD capability. IAF will not be using it for that 'role'.

Ever heard of China?
So now we buy helicopters based on the exact number of Chinese subs now?

It doesn't matter what role. That's how SSKs operate.
lol
Dude, I seriously do not understand what's so confusing.
No, this is your normal routine, muddle the topic then playing dumb. At least try to remember what you said and be consistent with it. It was the same thing with AMCA MTOW discussion, apparently, it can be both 30ton + and exactly 25 ton !.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,248
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Mumbai
To those who may be interested. This is a link to a blog post by PKS on the SOSUS network & India's gains in being associated with the network as well as India's SW & ASW capabilities ( in the screenshot) . The blog Post's from 2016 . A bit dated but should give us an idea.

TRISHUL: DEFEXPO 2016 Show Report-2

IMG_20200406_081153.jpg
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
You Post #81

My reply


Are you getting periodic blackouts or something?

It's obvious you don't realise it's you who brought in cities, not me. So I'm gonna have to throw your statement back at you.

Let me refresh your memeory. What you originally said is Pakistanis will overwhelm our BMD. I said no. You still insisted Pak can ovewhelm any BMD. Then I brought in the example of S-400 and that we are buying 6000 missiles with most of them capable of BMD particularly designed to stop missiles that Pak possesses. Then you put up some nonsense posts about not believing it until I posted a link from fas.org confirming what I said. This is when you switched gears claiming the S-400 is being bought for SAM role and not protect cities, to which I replied what you stated is nonsense since S-400 will deal with any threat, including MRBMs, I never said anything about cities. Then I proceeded to explain a bit about the S-400 and gave the example of Delhi and Moscow, signifying that the S-400 creates an area effect and can protect a very large region the size of Delhi, since you also had issues about the range of the system.

Then you came up with some random nonsense about how S-400 will not be deployed to protect cities, but I told you not to speculate, since we do not know where the S-400s are being placed. Now you are claiming I said S-400 is going to protect Delhi. It's clear your understanding of this subject is pretty much zero.

:rolleyes:

That is the only point I was making. It does not matter S400 has an 'unproven' BMD capability. IAF will not be using it for that 'role'.

You still don't get it. It doesn't matter what you think, the S-400 is BMD capable.

You claimed Pakistan will overwhelm our BMD, but my entire point was with 6000 missiles, forget our own BMD, the Pakistanis can't even overwhelm the S-400's BMD capability. It doesn't matter where the S-400 is placed, it will still stop Pakistan's entire inventory of missiles, from cruise missiles to ballistic missiles. A 40N6 placed inside Delhi will even be able to provide BMD all the way to Meerut. Now don't go saying IAF will place S-400 in Meerut.

And no, you do not understand how and why the S-400 can manage to do BMD, and it's not unproven, rather it's Pakistan's MRBMs that are actually much younger and unproven. Hell, the S-300 first came into service back in the 80s, and came with BMD capability, while Pakistan's first MRBM became operational in the late 90s.

The Russians created the capability to stop Pakistani missiles long before Pakistan even had them. I would actually say the Russians have conducted many times more tests on the S-300/400 than Pakistan's total MRBM inventory. Unproven you say!!! Hell, in just 1 exercise, the S-400 was tested against more missiles than Pakistan's total MRBM tests ever conducted.

Dude, you are really hilarious, the way you have become convinced by your own nonsensical views.

So now we buy helicopters based on the exact number of Chinese subs now?

More or less. If we were dealing with the USN, we would need a whole lot more than if we were dealing with the Chinese. Suffice to say Pakistan is countered no matter what. Hence an oversupply.

As China's navy grows, so will ours. Different story that we can't match them at all this decade.

With claims like Pakistan will get Type 039 SSBs, never mind all that nonsense about BMD, I shouldn't even be entertaining your ridiculous posts.

No, this is your normal routine, muddle the topic then playing dumb. At least try to remember what you said and be consistent with it. It was the same thing with AMCA MTOW discussion, apparently, it can be both 30ton + and exactly 25 ton !.

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Look at this again. Keep bringing stuff you don't understand into the conversation only so you can digress. What do you know about aircraft? Do you know Su-30MKI has multiple MTOWs? And that's AMCA's 25T "MTOW" is not actually "MTOW"?

Let me clue you in.
Su-35's empty weight is 18.5T, internal fuel load is 11.5T and payload is 8T. The total comes up to 38T. But why do the Russians advertise its MTOW as 34T?

And then, Su-30MKI's MTOW is advertised as 39T. But the Su-30MKI has inferior structural integrity and even fuel load and payload versus the Su-35. So why is it advertised as 39T and Su-35 as 34T?

At these MTOW figures, with full fuel, all the Su-35 can carry is 4T of payload. Otoh, with full fuel, the MKI can carry 11T of payload. :ROFLMAO: Confused?

If we use Vstol's math for MTOW, then we get 38T for Su-30 but we get 43T for Su-35. Let's check one other jet, the PAK FA, we get 55T. So why is the PAK FA advertised with an MTOW of 33T only? Similarly, with the same math, we get 32.5 to 35T MTOW for AMCA, but ADA is claiming 25T. I bet you have no clue why this is so.

Have you ever considered you do not understand this subject at all? It's not just a random number. Don't expect me to explain this. You do your own research, like I did.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
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Nov 30, 2017
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It's obvious you don't realise it's you who brought in cities, not me. So I'm gonna have to throw your statement back at you.

Let me refresh your memeory. What you originally said is Pakistanis will overwhelm our BMD. I said no. You still insisted Pak can ovewhelm any BMD. Then I brought in the example of S-400 and that we are buying 6000 missiles with most of them capable of BMD particularly designed to stop missiles that Pak possesses. Then you put up some nonsense posts about not believing it until I posted a link from fas.org confirming what I said. This is when you switched gears claiming the S-400 is being bought for SAM role and not protect cities, to which I replied what you stated is nonsense since S-400 will deal with any threat, including MRBMs, I never said anything about cities. Then I proceeded to explain a bit about the S-400 and gave the example of Delhi and Moscow, signifying that the S-400 creates an area effect and can protect a very large region the size of Delhi, since you also had issues about the range of the system.

Then you came up with some random nonsense about how S-400 will not be deployed to protect cities, but I told you not to speculate, since we do not know where the S-400s are being placed. Now you are claiming I said S-400 is going to protect Delhi. It's clear your understanding of this subject is pretty much zero.
The entire premise of the discussion was nuclear deterrence. Thus it's directly tied to securing cities. For this purpose, we have our own BMD system. My point was that it can be overwhelmed with enough numbers.

Now you bring in S400 saying it will be used for the job to counter pakistani MRBMs (again implicitly cities). This is speculation because every IAF official source is saying S400 is to bridge the gap in reduced squadron numbers (Thus for SAM role). In this argument, you are accusing me of speculation before proving why it will be used in BMD role while we have separate systems for the role.

Not answering the rest, it looks like you got emotional with all the phrases and emoji selections. :cautious:
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,248
13,143
Mumbai
The entire premise of the discussion was nuclear deterrence. Thus it's directly tied to securing cities. For this purpose, we have our own BMD system. My point was that it can be overwhelmed with enough numbers.

Now you bring in S400 saying it will be used for the job to counter pakistani MRBMs (again implicitly cities). This is speculation because every IAF official source is saying S400 is to bridge the gap in reduced squadron numbers (Thus for SAM role). In this argument, you are accusing me of speculation before proving why it will be used in BMD role while we have separate systems for the role.

Not answering the rest, it looks like you got emotional with all the phrases and emoji selections. :cautious:
Yes. Usually he's a stoic. After those episodes with Sancho, this is the first time I'm seeing him go ballistic & abuse emoticons. Can't remember the last time he used them leave alone abuse them. You shouldn't have mentioned blackouts & then qualified it with periodic . It has a rather perjorative implication, if you know what I mean. Good thing you're thick skinned too. Else this could've got nasty.
 
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hellbent

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
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If we do have such systems then I am glad and rest assured makes IN job easier. Are the hydrophone arrays networked in real time?

Please understand it's not a rosy picture overall.

Sosus type sensors are not a joke to deploy , maintain and operate. From what I could manage to gather Indian deployment is networked alright but rather localised in 1 or 2 regions . It's not an single grid like sosus. Neither it is extensive.

From Indian perspective it is a work in progress , we are definitely not in the level of Americans and Japanese when it comes to sosus type sensors.

Having these hydrophone arrays is not the ends , because our systems are not exactly top of the line , rather they are work in progress . Plus extracting info from the data sent by the sensors is another headache .

But nevertheless they matter because it is laying foundation for better systems in future. Nobody will share such technology.

We are also investing in underwater gliders which can operate standalone for months . Initial models of the same I have posted the pics.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
The entire premise of the discussion was nuclear deterrence. Thus it's directly tied to securing cities. For this purpose, we have our own BMD system. My point was that it can be overwhelmed with enough numbers.

Okay, okay. Then only China won't be able to overwhelm our BMD, only Pakistan can, with their super advanced missiles, all 30 of them.

Now you bring in S400 saying it will be used for the job to counter pakistani MRBMs (again implicitly cities).

Oh, really? How is that implictly implying cities? Isn't that again your assertion?

So implicitly you are implying all military targets can eat nukes?

This is speculation because every IAF official source is saying S400 is to bridge the gap in reduced squadron numbers (Thus for SAM role). In this argument, you are accusing me of speculation before proving why it will be used in BMD role while we have separate systems for the role.

It's simple. Wherever the S-400 is deployed, there is no real need to deploy our BMD. At least we know for sure that its endoatmospheric capabilities are superior to our Phase I BMD. If the 40N6 information on Deagel is correct, then it is capable of exoatmospheric interception up to an altitude of 185Km, making it superior to our Phase I BMD overall. You underestimate the Russians too much, and it's funny the extent to which you have overestimated Pakistan.

Also do you really think India will openly claim we are building a BMD network with imported systems? Of course, India is going to say the S-400 is for SAM role. That doesn't make the system BMD-incapable overnight.

Not answering the rest, it looks like you got emotional with all the phrases and emoji selections. :cautious:

Forget it, you won't have answers for those anyway.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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Nov 30, 2017
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Oh, really? How is that implictly implying cities? Isn't that again your assertion?

So implicitly you are implying all military targets can eat nukes?
MRBMs are used against cities! Calm down sherlock.
It's simple. Wherever the S-400 is deployed, there is no real need to deploy our BMD. At least we know for sure that its endoatmospheric capabilities are superior to our Phase I BMD. If the 40N6 information on Deagel is correct, then it is capable of exoatmospheric interception up to an altitude of 185Km, making it superior to our Phase I BMD overall. You underestimate the Russians too much, and it's funny the extent to which you have overestimated Pakistan.

Also do you really think India will openly claim we are building a BMD network with imported systems? Of course, India is going to say the S-400 is for SAM role. That doesn't make the system BMD-incapable overnight.
Ok, Classified like every time.