The Russian Air War and Ukrainian Air Defence : Discussions

Tatvamasi

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Further Western support is needed to ensure that Kyiv can counter Moscow's updated approach to the air war in Ukraine.

Executive Summary​

  • Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) conducted significantly more extensive fixed-wing strike operations during the first days of the invasion than has been previously documented, while Ukrainian ground-based air-defence (GBAD) capabilities were suppressed by initial attacks.
  • During this period, Ukrainian fighter aircraft inflicted some losses on VKS aircraft but also took serious casualties due to being totally technologically outmatched and badly outnumbered.
  • Russian fighters have remained highly effective and lethal against Ukrainian aircraft near the frontlines throughout the war, especially the Su-35S with the R-77-1 long-range missile and, in recent months, the Mig-31BM with the R-37 very long-range missile.
  • From early March, the VKS lost the ability to operate in Ukrainian-controlled airspace except at very low altitudes due to its inability to reliably suppress or destroy increasingly effective, well-dispersed and mobile Ukrainian surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.
  • Russian GBAD has also been highly effective since March, especially the long-range S-400 SAM system supported by the 48Ya6 ‘Podlet-K1’ all-altitude long-range surveillance radar system.
  • Numerous MANPADS provided to Ukrainian troops and later mobile air-defence teams meant that low-altitude Russian fixed-wing and rotary penetrating sorties beyond the frontlines proved to be prohibitively costly during March, and ceased by April 2022.
  • Throughout the war, most Russian airstrikes have been against pre-designated targets with unguided bombs and rockets. The Su-34 fleet has regularly also fired stand-off missiles such as the Kh-29 and Kh-59 against fixed targets, and Su-30SM and Su-35S fighters have regularly fired Kh-31P and Kh-58 anti-radiation missiles to suppress and target Ukrainian SAM radars.
  • Without air superiority, Russia’s attempts at strategic air attack have been limited to expensive cruise and ballistic missile barrages at a much more limited scale. These failed to achieve strategically decisive damage during the first seven months of the invasion. However, the latest iteration is a more focused and sustainable bombardment of the Ukrainian electricity grid, blending hundreds of cheap Iranian-supplied Shahed-136 loitering munitions against substations with continued use of cruise and ballistic missiles against larger targets.
  • The West must avoid complacency about the need to urgently bolster Ukrainian air-defence capacity. It is purely thanks to its failure to destroy Ukraine’s mobile SAM systems that Russia remains unable to effectively employ the potentially heavy and efficient aerial firepower of its fixed-wing bomber and multi-role fighter fleets to bombard Ukrainian strategic targets and frontline positions from medium altitude, as it did in Syria.
  • It follows that if Ukrainian SAMs are not resupplied with ammunition, and ultimately augmented and replaced with Western equivalents over time, the VKS will regain the ability to pose a major threat.
  • In the short term, Ukraine also needs large numbers of additional man-portable air-defence systems (MANPADS) and radar-guided anti-aircraft guns, such as the Gepard, to sustain and increase its ability to intercept the Shahed-136s and protect its remaining power infrastructure and repairs to damaged facilities.
  • In the medium term, Ukraine needs cost-effective ways to defend itself against the Shahed-136. One option could be compact radar and/or laser ranging and sighting systems to allow numerous existing anti-aircraft guns to be much more accurate and effective against them.
  • The Ukrainian Air Force fighter force needs modern Western fighters and missiles to sustainably counter the VKS. Russian pilots have been cautious throughout the war, so even a small number of Western fighters could have a major deterrent effect.
  • Any Western fighter supplied in the short–medium term needs to be capable of dispersed operations using mobile maintenance equipment and small support teams, and flying from relatively rough runways, to avoid being neutralised by Russian long-range missile strikes.
Full Report : https://static.rusi.org/SR-Russian-Air-War-Ukraine-web-final.pdf
 
Lets limit this thread to discussions about Russian air war over ukraine.

Notice Declaration GIF by Outlander
 
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The Russians are apparently getting a massive new inventory of low end ballistic missiles that cannot be stopped by Ukraine due to lack of BMD. It will allow the Russians to protect their own inventory of Iskanders.
 
The Russians are apparently getting a massive new inventory of low end ballistic missiles that cannot be stopped by Ukraine due to lack of BMD. It will allow the Russians to protect their own inventory of Iskanders.
Lets limit this thread on air war that had already happened not future.
 
The Russians are apparently getting a massive new inventory of low end ballistic missiles that cannot be stopped by Ukraine due to lack of BMD. It will allow the Russians to protect their own inventory of Iskanders.
They are getting Iranians fateh-110. I really think we should immitate the Iranian model. The Iranian military isn't any good but they have lot of cheap options that can cause lot of harassment for the enemy. And we need to fight a cheap war.
 
They are getting Iranians fateh-110. I really think we should immitate the Iranian model. The Iranian military isn't any good but they have lot of cheap options that can cause lot of harassment for the enemy. And we need to fight a cheap war.

We have drones. And missiles too, that's the point of the IRF.

The RuAF is just sitting this war out, they are letting the missile guys do all the hard work.
 
I think most people are underestimating both SU30SM and SU35S. Both these fighters have done heavy damage to Ukrainian fighter planes than vice versa(read plenty of air to air kills for both types).

Also gen wise, even though both these planes trace their roots to SU27, they are much updated versions of it.


The first flight of SU30SM in MKI guise happened in 1997 after Raptor/Typhoon/Rafale's first flight. SU35S' first flight happened in 2008. They both are 4+ and 4++ gen fighters.


Like I said in the other Russia vs Ukraine thread, SU30SM and SU35S combo can take on Rafales and Typhoons with aplomb. And in my opinion fighting a defensive war inside Russia they can hold fort against F22 and F35 as well.

For Russia to strike deep into Europe, they will need a large number of SU57Ms. I think in next 5-6 years, VVS would gain rather worrying strength for Pentagon just like Chinks have got now.
 
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I think most people are underestimating both SU30SM and SU35S. Both these fighters have done heavy damage to Ukrainian fighter planes than vice versa(read plenty of air to air kills for both types).

Also gen wise, even though both these planes trace their roots to SU27, they are much updated versions of it.


The first flight of SU30SM in MKI guise happened in 1997 after Raptor/Typhoon/Rafale's first flight. SU35S' first flight happened in 2008. They both are 4+ and 4++ gen fighters.


Like I said in the other Russia vs Ukraine thread, SU30SM and SU35S combo can take on Rafales and Typhoons with aplomb. And in my opinion fighting a defensive war inside Russia they can hold fort against F22 and F35 as well.

For Russia to strike deep into Europe, they will need a large number of SU57Ms. I think in next 5-6 years, VVS would gain rather worrying strength for Pentagon just like Chinks have got now.
The flankers are a dated design. Atleast the Russian ones. What the Chinese did with the j-16 is what we really need. A high composite aircraft with al-41f1, maws, jamming wing pods and aesa radar with stealth shopping on it's vents. The su-35 might pose a threat to american aircrafts but not too more modern eurocanards.
 
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We have drones. And missiles too, that's the point of the IRF.

The RuAF is just sitting this war out, they are letting the missile guys do all the hard work.
We don't have loitering munitions of the size the Iranians use. Although our loitering munitions are superior they are still expensive. We need something like the arash-2, shahed 136, karar, raad 85, Meraj and ababil 2t. These have a warhead of above 30kg. Much bigger than anything we have in our loitering munition inventory. Also Iranian missiles are based on Chinese copies of scuds and other designs which are far cheaper. I hope we can have a second grade layer of Soviet copies of missiles which can be exported to Vietnam, Armenia and such and can be used to harass like what the Russians are doing with Iranian drones and missiles.
Like main should be a pralay, pragati, prithvi and a 300km ballistic missile. Along with iskander and atacms being produced. And a second layer of cheaper missiles that can be produced within a week which are basically scud and older Russian missile design copies. That are easier to intercept but just cause pure harassment. Just need to fix gps guidance and they are as good as any other ballistic missile
 
We don't have loitering munitions of the size the Iranians use. Although our loitering munitions are superior they are still expensive. We need something like the arash-2, shahed 136, karar, raad 85, Meraj and ababil 2t. These have a warhead of above 30kg. Much bigger than anything we have in our loitering munition inventory. Also Iranian missiles are based on Chinese copies of scuds and other designs which are far cheaper. I hope we can have a second grade layer of Soviet copies of missiles which can be exported to Vietnam, Armenia and such and can be used to harass like what the Russians are doing with Iranian drones and missiles.
Like main should be a pralay, pragati, prithvi and a 300km ballistic missile. Along with iskander and atacms being produced. And a second layer of cheaper missiles that can be produced within a week which are basically scud and older Russian missile design copies. That are easier to intercept but just cause pure harassment. Just need to fix gps guidance and they are as good as any other ballistic missile



We already have a decent inventory of bigger drones. Now the focus is on small drones that are man portable. Due to increased accuracy, there is no need for heavier drones like the ones Iran's got.

Indigenous.

Imports.


Govt support for the drone ecosystem.
 


We already have a decent inventory of bigger drones. Now the focus is on small drones that are man portable. Due to increased accuracy, there is no need for heavier drones like the ones Iran's got.

Indigenous.

Imports.


Govt support for the drone ecosystem.
Harpy is of a smaller size although the shahed 136 has a larger warhead it's inaccurate. We do need something like shahed 136 with a 50kg warhead. The Iranians copied polish warmate and harpy. They have also a bunch of other loitering munutions that came in yemen
images - 2022-11-09T045808.049.jpeg


 
Harpy is of a smaller size although the shahed 136 has a larger warhead it's inaccurate. We do need something like shahed 136 with a 50kg warhead. The Iranians copied polish warmate and harpy. They have also a bunch of other loitering munutions that came in yemenView attachment 25157

We use Harop. Additionally, there are too many options to choose from the local industry. We are safe in this area.
 
We use Harop. Additionally, there are too many options to choose from the local industry. We are safe in this area.
We are safe for the first week. We need an inventory of atleast 10,000 such loitering munitions. The Chinese have a far better variety of these drones. Although they do have a lot UAV's and UCAV's where we are at a disadvantage too.
 
What happens after this 10k ? When does this imaginary scenario end? Moot discussion.
We produce them. A 10,000 target will force our government to ask the industries to set up mass manufacturing of these systems.