The Indian Navy's Helicopters and purchases plans

Bon Plan

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Aviation Update: German Navy Helicopter not Fit to Fly over Water

More tongue in cheek than a serious point.



One single helicopter in the light utility class. Honestly, European and especially the French have amazing tech. However, I'd just take this L on helicopters though. It's not even comparable.
Don't use German exemple.....
only 4 Eurofighter ready for war on 130+ delivered...
low disponibility of German Leopard 2...
=> Lack of maintenance, in all branch of the german army.
 

Bon Plan

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Yes, it can fly over the sea, but do you notice how placid those conditions are? 11 years after they first entered service and Norwegian Navy NH90s still can't operate in rough sea conditions, which with the North and Barents Seas being the roughest on this planet where poor sea states are the norm, not the exception, is a really big drop off in their capabilities.

They can operate in this.



They can't operate in this.





The Sea King can. And the Lynx, which the NH90 replaced.

View attachment 2896

And these aren't my words: Rough Sea Renders Useless Norway's Soon-to-Be-Delivered Helicopters

The NH90 has not been able to perform up to its requirements.
Not over a lake :
1532351877949.png

1532351971395.png

1532352137673.png
 

Kvasir

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Pic one is mild bluster on a clear day, nothing rough. Pic number two is a visual description of what happens when water hits rocks, not an indicator of sea state. Pic three is just foggy (look at the waters around the ship).



This is what the NH90 has to be able to operate in, something both Norway and as @sunstersun pointed out, Germany whose operations extend into the North Sea, have to contend with. As noted both in the article he posted, and the one I did and this one, quoting Norwegian brass, they can't do - Forsvaret lar milliardhelikoptre stå ubrukt, frykter at de ikke tåler parkering på kystvaktfartøy i dårlig vær




This prototype does a nice job illustrating what they need to be able to do, but while this prototype does nicely for Germany during a landing on Sachsen, the production models that Germany and Norway have or will have can't do that. It's not BS or disparaging to the NH90, it's documented and an ongoing problem that's been highlighted repeatedly.

This is mild by North Sea standards.


I'm not arguing that the NH90 can't operate in rough seas, look above to see a video of just that. Rather, those that either Germany or Norway operate can't perform their missions in those sea conditions due to issues with the helicopters, as noted in the links I've posted, and as my previous post points out, written about the issues Norway's have faced, not the program as a whole. Our older helicopters, small and large, perform better then our new helicopters and that's a problem.



Maybe India would have better luck? Still best to go with the S-70.
 

Ashwin

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Indian Navy to trial new ESM system on Kamov Ka-31 helicopters
02 July 2018

The Indian Navy will trial a newly developed airborne electronic warfare (EW) system aboard its Kamov Ka-31 airborne early warning helicopter.

A June 2018 tender document for the programme disclosed that the country’s Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is seeking a vendor to perform “platform modification and installation” of the Sarang electronic support measures (ESM) system for the aircraft type. The vendor should execute the contract within 18 weeks from order placement.

The Sarang ESM system comprises several antennae types, including cavity-backed spiral antennae for the high-accuracy baseline interferometer (BLI) direction finding system that are mounted at various locations on the airframe to obtain all around coverage, associated line replaceable units, and a ruggedised laptop display inside the cockpit.
 
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Himanshu

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Dec 3, 2017
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indopacfront.blogspot.com
India Clears Decks For 24 American MH-60 Romeo Helicopters For Navy

The Indian Navy gets to exhale a bit, as a crucial and long-pending demand for a replacement of its old fleet of Sea King anti-submarine/utility helicopters gets off the ground. The Indian MoD today cleared decks for the navy to go ahead and contract for 24 Lockheed Martin-Sikorsky MH-60 Romeo maritime helicopters in a government-to-government deal with the Pentagon. The deal is expected to be worth $1.8 billion.

The move comes days days before Delhi and Washington engage in a crucial ‘2+2’ dialog in the Indian capital, in which US Secretary of Defense James Mattis will meet with his Indian counterpart Nirmala Sitharaman on a range of issues, including military trade. The MH-60 Romeo proposal has been key to discussions over the better part of three years now.

The move is the first major step towards an expanded requirement detailed by the Indian Navy last year for 123 medium multirole helicopters to replace the Mk.42B and UH-3H Seakings service. The move also brings to a formal end all speculation that the the MH-60R’s older cousin, the Sikorsky S-70B, was being considered for a smaller fleet of 18 units. In a troubled earlier iteration of the contract in question here, designated MRH (multirole helicopter), the Indian Navy had veered towards the Sikorsky S-70B in a face-off against the NH Industries NH90. With Lockheed Martin’s acquisition of Sikorsky and the expanded requirement in mind, the S-70 Bravo fell off the table, making way for the more capable MH-60 Romeo and the number pushed up to 24.

The MH-60R uses the same airframe as the S-70B, but with major improvements to its cockpit and avionics, and changes to its tailwheel to ease handling on a ship deck.

With today’s decision, the navy’s formal future requirement for such helicopters now stands at 147 helicopters, making it one of the largest copter contests in the world. No timeframe, however, exists on the 123 future helicopters, with budgetary and other pressures coming into play. That acquisition, which will be executed under the Strategic Partnership model, will be a far more complicated venture involving an Indian production line. Sources in the navy tell Livefist, the acquisition of the 123 ‘N-MRH’ helicopters will begin once the navy has gotten off the ground on its other major helicopter acquisition program — the 111 naval utility helicopters. The MoD, crucially, also cleared decks today for this latter procurement to move forward.

But with the trigger pulled on 24 to start with, the navy has every reason to feel upbeat.

Progress towards a contract for new airframes is major relief for the Indian Navy that has fought hard through troublesome meandering contests and red tape to replace this crucial airborne capability. In the recent floods in the southern Indian state of Kerala that killed hundreds and displaced thousands, the navy’s old Sea Kings performed admirably in rescue operations. But to all involved, it has become clear that it’s time for them to be retired.

If the navy’s plans stay on track to progress the requirement for 123 more helicopters as a competitive bid, it will float a tender next year. The 123 NMRH helicopters will operate off aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the two upcoming indigenous aircraft carriers (Vikrant and Vishal), the three Shivalik-class stealth frigates, the follow-on P-17A frigates as well as current and future destroyer types (Delhi-class, Kolkata-class and Visakhapatnam-class). Apart from the MH-60R, contenders will likely include the NHIndustries NH90 and Airbus Helicopters H225M (earlier EC 725). As reported by Livefist last year, the Indian Navy has split its requirement into two variants: a standard multirole version and one kitted out specifically for special operations.
 
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Abingdonboy

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Whilst this appears to be progress one has to concede the IN’s helicopter plans are a mess

123+ NMRH required for over a decade- 24 ordered and no progress on larger NMRH deal

111 NUH needed only a DAC clearance for AON in 4 years and no real reason why they couldn’t have just ordered 111+ ALH for this role.

Delays and an incoherent policy defines these efforts
 
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GuardianRED

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Whilst this appears to be progress one has to concede the IN’s helicopter plans are a mess

123+ NMRH required for over a decade- 24 ordered and no progress on larger NMRH deal

111 NUH needed only a DAC clearance for AON in 4 years and no real reason why they couldn’t have just ordered 111+ ALH for this role.

Delays and an incoherent policy defines these efforts
Can you clarify the Quantity of NMRH ? how did the no. 123+ come to be?
 

sunstersun

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So I'd imagine this purchase is the equivalent of the Rafale purchase. How could you possibly win the first tender, then lose the second tender.
 
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randomradio

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So I'd imagine this purchase is the equivalent of the Rafale purchase. How could you possibly win the first tender, then lose the second tender.

Sikorsky won the previous tender, this 24 units deal is a continuation of that. Due to the Agusta scandal, all copter deals were cancelled.

So yeah, this 24 units deal will give Sikorsky a massive advantage in the new 123 units tender. Pretty much the same as the Rafale deal.
 
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randomradio

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111 NUH needed only a DAC clearance for AON in 4 years and no real reason why they couldn’t have just ordered 111+ ALH for this role.

IN rejected the ALH after operating a few of them. Its undercarriage is too weak for deck operations. Failed rotor blades folding requirement. Has crappy endurance, which can only be met by something like the MH-60.

NUH is expected to be almost half the weight of the ALH, so the ALH can't fulfil that requirement either. The ALH is too big and heavy.
 

randomradio

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Can you clarify the Quantity of NMRH ? how did the no. 123+ come to be?

IN needs 4 LHDs and 3 carriers, and double the number of landing ships, corvettes, frigates and destroyers. That's why the large numbers of NMRH.

The 24 units are required for our existing ships. And then 123 for our future requirement, the numbers will increase further of course.
 
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Angel Eyes

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IN needs 4 LHDs and 3 carriers, and double the number of landing ships, corvettes, frigates and destroyers. That's why the large numbers of NMRH.

The 24 units are required for our existing ships. And then 123 for our future requirement, the numbers will increase further of course.
What will happen to Hal IMRH...
 

Abingdonboy

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IN rejected the ALH after operating a few of them. Its undercarriage is too weak for deck operations. Failed rotor blades folding requirement. Has crappy endurance, which can only be met by something like the MH-60.

NUH is expected to be almost half the weight of the ALH, so the ALH can't fulfil that requirement either. The ALH is too big and heavy.
1) IN has ordered more ALH MK.3 in 2017
2) MH-60 is NMRH, I’m talking about NUH where ALH is perfect
3) ALH has better endurance than any of the proposed NUH contenders
4) read IN’s NUH RFI, MTOW is 6,000kg. ALH has MTOW of 5,800kg and it’s empty weight is less than Panther (which is taking part) but ALH has superior payload capacity and internal volume.


Whatever way you cut it IN is behaving disgracefully and ignoring the best possible option.

With HTSE-1200 ALH will be utterly untouchable in its class.
 

Abingdonboy

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What will happen to Hal IMRH...
IMRH will change the face of Indian airlift capacity. Will be the first medium sized helo IA ever operates, will be the natural successor to the Mi-17 in India service, will be the IN’s best option for filling up these aviation requirements, will offer unmatched performance for ICG and will be an option for CAPFs if they ever require a helo of this class.


Cannot wait for IMRH, it will be truly game changing.
 

randomradio

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1) IN has ordered more ALH MK.3 in 2017

It's for land based squadrons. IN and CG ordered 16 each.

2) MH-60 is NMRH, I’m talking about NUH where ALH is perfect

The navy doesn't think so. Neither does HAL.

4) read IN’s NUH RFI, MTOW is 6,000kg. ALH has MTOW of 5,800kg and it’s empty weight is less than Panther (which is taking part) but ALH has superior payload capacity and internal volume.

Nope. IN has asked for 5T. I would recommend reading the RFI again.

Whatever way you cut it IN is behaving disgracefully and ignoring the best possible option.

Even HAL agrees the ALH is not suitable for deck ops, that's why they are pushing for Ka-226.
 
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Ashwin

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India fast-tracks purchase of MH-60R helicopters
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

16 November 2018

India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) has issued a letter of request (LOR) to the US government on 15 November regarding the intended purchase of 24 Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk multirole naval helicopters for the Indian Navy (IN).

IN officials told Jane’s that the long-delayed request to acquire the platforms for an estimated INR135 billion (USD1.88 billion) – under the US Foreign Military Sales programme – is likely to be signed within a year.

The IN anticipates the delivery of the MH-60Rs, which are intended to replace the service’s fleet of Sea King Mk 42B/C and Ka-28 helicopters, to begin around 2020 and be completed 48 months later.
 
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