The enemy at the gates has a new weapon and Indian Army needs to wake up

[Ashwin]

Sniping is one of the most cost-effective tactics in an insurgency, both for security forces as well as terrorists.

Over the last one month, there have been a number of reports of our security forces suffering casualties from sniper fire in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K). While sniping has been an ongoing feature of fighting on the Line of Control (LoC), alleged terrorist snipers have struck for the first time in the Valley and seem to have caught the security forces by surprise.

Intelligence reports indicate that two sniper pairs of Jaish-e-Mohammed have infiltrated into the Valley. Since September 2018, three kills in Kashmir’s interior have been attributed to terrorist snipers.

This has generated a lot of public interest, particularly in light of earlier reports about our troops suffering casualties from sniper fire on the LoC.

Making every shot count
Sniping is one of the most cost-effective tactics in an insurgency, both for the security forces as well as the terrorists.

Based on intelligence, reconnaissance and observation, kills can be achieved at very long range. The world record is held by a Canadian sniper, who achieved an astounding 3,540-metre ‘kill’ in Iraq last year. Snipers are also used to shoot terrorists mingling with crowds in hostage situations, and during a firefight where the sniper is in an over-watch position.

Since snipers are highly skilled, they make every shot count. In Jammu and Kashmir, approximately 5,000 rounds are used to kill one terrorist. Snipers, on the other hand, take only 1.3 rounds to achieve a kill.

A sniper has to be physically fit, mentally robust, skilled at field-craft, and an exceptional marksman. He must be a master of camouflage, have the guile to bait the enemy and develop infinite patience to get the “sure shot”. The sniping duel in Stalingrad between Vasily Zaytsev (Russian Army) and Major Erwin König (German Army), immortalised in the movie Enemy at the Gates, is a classic example of the stuff snipers are made of.

A sniper must have the scientific temper to understand the external ballistics of the bullet at long range, which is influenced by a host of factors that include gravity, wind speed and direction, altitude, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure and centrifugal force. At long range, even a mild crosswind requires a significant “off set” of the aiming point away from the target, which has to be accurately calculated.

The prolonged specialised training and the relatively high cost of equipment deters terrorist organisations from training and using snipers. Short training capsules in field-craft, and skills to effectively use a weapon like the AK-47 at short range meet the requirements of terrorist outfits.

New dimension
The reason for the likely change of tactics by the terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir is due to their diminishing numbers and inability to counter the effective security grid.

In my view, they are unlikely to use high-end sniper rifles with long range. What is more likely is the induction of “sharpshooters” who use a modern standard rifle like the US Army M4 rifle fitted with day and night vision telescopic sights to engage targets up to 500 metres. This would be a cost-effective alternative as, till now, terrorist attacks that involve the use of AK-47 are restricted to ranges of 20-50 metres. A few personnel of the Special Service Group of the Pakistan Army, with sophisticated sniper rifles, could also be inducted. The use of “sharpshooters” and some snipers can be a game changer in the ongoing proxy war. The security forces would have to take additional preventive security measures for the “off set” threat.

This new dimension is a wake-up call for the Indian Army to field its own snipers, which are the best countermeasure against the enemy “sharpshooters”/ snipers, in a more effective manner. To the best of my knowledge, we have never killed a terrorist using a sniper. The situation at the LoC is no different.

We have nearly 5,000 Dragunov sniper rifles with an effective range of 1300 metres inour inventory at the scale of 10 per Infantry/ Special Forces/Assam Rifles/ Rashtriya Rifles Battalion. Reports have surfaced recently about the Indian Army starting the process of importing 5,000-6,000 modern sniper rifles for Rs 982 crore to replace the Dragunov sniper rifle. It is surprising that there seems to be no plan to induct specialist sniper rifles for ranges beyond 1500 metres.

Yawning gap
Where then are our snipers? Why are we not effectively using them? The answer lies in the proverbial statement – it is not the gun but the man behind the gun that makes the difference. We have not been able to develop the requisite skills in our snipers. They are no more than “sharpshooters”, a little better than the average soldier but certainly not skilled snipers.

There is no specialist trade of “sniper”, but any above-average soldier after limited training wields the sniper rifle. Snipers lack specialised clothing and gear. Simulators are not available and training ammunition is inadequate. The sniper course conducted at the Infantry School lacks quality. Very few of our snipers can pass the universal test of a sniper, which is to score a first round “head shot” at 600 metres and a first round “body shot” at 1,000 metres. If a sniper cannot pass this test, he cannot be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharpshooter.

What is the solution? In my view, radical changes need to be made in our approach towards training of snipers. A specialised trade of “sniper” must be created. A core group of 100 snipers, after a selection based on international standards, must be trained in the sniper schools of western armies to create a pool of sniper instructors. A sniper training school must be established and all snipers must be trained there. Refresher training must be organised at Corps Battle schools under sniper instructors. In addition to the standard sniper rifles, we must import specialised long-range sniper rifles for “super snipers”. We must also kit our snipers up with gear of international standards.

Unless these reforms are carried out, no matter what rifles are imported, we will continue to produce only “sharpshooters” and not snipers, and remain at the receiving end in the changed scenario in Jammu and Kashmir.

Lt Gen H.S. Panag PVSM, AVSM (R) served in the Indian Army for 40 years. He was GOC in C Northern Command and Central Command. Post retirement, he was Member of Armed Forces Tribunal.

@Hellfire @Milspec @Parthu

 

[Guynextdoor]

But sniping is a two way street. In management we call it 'low entry barrier business model' and only a moron would enter it. If they kill with a sniper, we can kill two. There is no sustainable competitive advantage they get out of this. And since their overall levels of training and motivation are among the worst in the world and ours is among the best this can only end badly for them.

'where are our sinpers'- we aren't gonna advertise them and they won't accept any kills unlike us. Besides the answer to a sniper shot is better an artillery barrage than a sniper shot in return.

 

[Milspec]

But sniping is a two way street. In management we call it 'low entry barrier business model' and only a moron would enter it. If they kill with a sniper, we can kill two. There is no sustainable competitive advantage they get out of this. And since their overall levels of training and motivation are among the worst in the world and ours is among the best this can only end badly for them.

'where are our sinpers'- we aren't gonna advertise them and they won't accept any kills unlike us. Besides the answer to a sniper shot is better an artillery barrage than a sniper shot in return.

Disagree quite a bit.

Snipers are not to counter sniper unless in an active battlefield. Here Snipers are being used to terrorize posts and patrols, and the idea promulgated by the retired officer is we should do the same to Pakistani troops.

My theory here is a bit convoluted and it lies in rifleman culture. Gun culture for all flaws in Pakistan also yields rifleman culture, where as proper firearms training starts early, good shooting position, proper use of iron sights and good understanding of glass and reticle happens long before entering service. The result is on an average you have better shooters in the countries with rich rifleman culture like United States, Australia, Pakistan, South Africa, vs countries like UK, China, India, and Japan.

Shooting skills in Pakistani army is celebrated and there is a lot of focus on precision fire, clear with the choice of thier main battle rifle, the G3, arguable the most solid breach in any battle rifle. It has little to no recoil dampening, but yields one of the most accurate fire in semi auto. Compare that to Indian army which ditches the fine SLR for an Insas which picked an AK style operating mechanism, inherently trading accuracy for reliability. This shows you the mindset towards accuracy. Also the developments of these platforms shows you the mindset of both sides, Pakistani army developed the PSR 90 , a scope free floating barrel with polygonal rifling copy of a PSG90 as a development of their license produced G3, while we kept flirting with Insas LMG and AK variants from OFB.

In addition their regular infantry units routinely employ the ssg 69 and multiple 50 cal system they bought in small numbers and trial state of the art sniper systems for short batch purchases, while Indian Army doesn't field anything other that the SVD for precision fire, OFB even stopped producing the Vidhwansak.

Lastly is my observation of disdain for shooting discipline among Indian forces including paramilitary and law enforcement regularly. Poor shooting stance, non-existent cheek welds, bent front sights, poor safety measure routinely visible in in everyday life. In Mumbai airport, security has their AK pointed towards public, Police officers shooting their pistols without lining up the sights, jawans holding the buttstock on the insas literally on their chests. Even in the NCC our CO did not know the correct way of fast reloading a smle. Rifleman culture or lack thereof, and general disdain for firearms has alienated the sport of rifle shooting from India, Army's disregard for precision and range time for the jawans has led to degradation of skills, and poor procurement of good quality firearms does not give Indian forces the opportunity to invest in sniper schools for Forces and Paramilitary.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sniping is one of the most cost-effective tactics in an insurgency, both for security forces as well as terrorists.

Over the last one month, there have been a number of reports of our security forces suffering casualties from sniper fire in Jammu and Kashmir (J&K). While sniping has been an ongoing feature of fighting on the Line of Control (LoC), alleged terrorist snipers have struck for the first time in the Valley and seem to have caught the security forces by surprise.

Intelligence reports indicate that two sniper pairs of Jaish-e-Mohammed have infiltrated into the Valley. Since September 2018, three kills in Kashmir’s interior have been attributed to terrorist snipers.

This has generated a lot of public interest, particularly in light of earlier reports about our troops suffering casualties from sniper fire on the LoC.

Making every shot count
Sniping is one of the most cost-effective tactics in an insurgency, both for the security forces as well as the terrorists.

Based on intelligence, reconnaissance and observation, kills can be achieved at very long range. The world record is held by a Canadian sniper, who achieved an astounding 3,540-metre ‘kill’ in Iraq last year. Snipers are also used to shoot terrorists mingling with crowds in hostage situations, and during a firefight where the sniper is in an over-watch position.

Since snipers are highly skilled, they make every shot count. In Jammu and Kashmir, approximately 5,000 rounds are used to kill one terrorist. Snipers, on the other hand, take only 1.3 rounds to achieve a kill.

A sniper has to be physically fit, mentally robust, skilled at field-craft, and an exceptional marksman. He must be a master of camouflage, have the guile to bait the enemy and develop infinite patience to get the “sure shot”. The sniping duel in Stalingrad between Vasily Zaytsev (Russian Army) and Major Erwin König (German Army), immortalised in the movie Enemy at the Gates, is a classic example of the stuff snipers are made of.

A sniper must have the scientific temper to understand the external ballistics of the bullet at long range, which is influenced by a host of factors that include gravity, wind speed and direction, altitude, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure and centrifugal force. At long range, even a mild crosswind requires a significant “off set” of the aiming point away from the target, which has to be accurately calculated.

The prolonged specialised training and the relatively high cost of equipment deters terrorist organisations from training and using snipers. Short training capsules in field-craft, and skills to effectively use a weapon like the AK-47 at short range meet the requirements of terrorist outfits.

New dimension
The reason for the likely change of tactics by the terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir is due to their diminishing numbers and inability to counter the effective security grid.

In my view, they are unlikely to use high-end sniper rifles with long range. What is more likely is the induction of “sharpshooters” who use a modern standard rifle like the US Army M4 rifle fitted with day and night vision telescopic sights to engage targets up to 500 metres. This would be a cost-effective alternative as, till now, terrorist attacks that involve the use of AK-47 are restricted to ranges of 20-50 metres. A few personnel of the Special Service Group of the Pakistan Army, with sophisticated sniper rifles, could also be inducted. The use of “sharpshooters” and some snipers can be a game changer in the ongoing proxy war. The security forces would have to take additional preventive security measures for the “off set” threat.

This new dimension is a wake-up call for the Indian Army to field its own snipers, which are the best countermeasure against the enemy “sharpshooters”/ snipers, in a more effective manner. To the best of my knowledge, we have never killed a terrorist using a sniper. The situation at the LoC is no different.

We have nearly 5,000 Dragunov sniper rifles with an effective range of 1300 metres inour inventory at the scale of 10 per Infantry/ Special Forces/Assam Rifles/ Rashtriya Rifles Battalion. Reports have surfaced recently about the Indian Army starting the process of importing 5,000-6,000 modern sniper rifles for Rs 982 crore to replace the Dragunov sniper rifle. It is surprising that there seems to be no plan to induct specialist sniper rifles for ranges beyond 1500 metres.

Yawning gap
Where then are our snipers? Why are we not effectively using them? The answer lies in the proverbial statement – it is not the gun but the man behind the gun that makes the difference. We have not been able to develop the requisite skills in our snipers. They are no more than “sharpshooters”, a little better than the average soldier but certainly not skilled snipers.

There is no specialist trade of “sniper”, but any above-average soldier after limited training wields the sniper rifle. Snipers lack specialised clothing and gear. Simulators are not available and training ammunition is inadequate. The sniper course conducted at the Infantry School lacks quality. Very few of our snipers can pass the universal test of a sniper, which is to score a first round “head shot” at 600 metres and a first round “body shot” at 1,000 metres. If a sniper cannot pass this test, he cannot be called a sniper and remains a marksman or a sharpshooter.

What is the solution? In my view, radical changes need to be made in our approach towards training of snipers. A specialised trade of “sniper” must be created. A core group of 100 snipers, after a selection based on international standards, must be trained in the sniper schools of western armies to create a pool of sniper instructors. A sniper training school must be established and all snipers must be trained there. Refresher training must be organised at Corps Battle schools under sniper instructors. In addition to the standard sniper rifles, we must import specialised long-range sniper rifles for “super snipers”. We must also kit our snipers up with gear of international standards.

Unless these reforms are carried out, no matter what rifles are imported, we will continue to produce only “sharpshooters” and not snipers, and remain at the receiving end in the changed scenario in Jammu and Kashmir.

Lt Gen H.S. Panag PVSM, AVSM (R) served in the Indian Army for 40 years. He was GOC in C Northern Command and Central Command. Post retirement, he was Member of Armed Forces Tribunal.

@Hellfire @Milspec @Parthu

As usual IA generals’ first suggestion is to seek foreign help!

Actually India already has world class snipers in the NSG and the Navy has their own special forces sniper school. I also find it weird that the general didn’t mention the snipers within the special forces of his own branch, he’s either ignorant or has other interests becuase his analysis is woeful and prescriptions flawed.

 

[Arvind]

Disagree quite a bit.

Snipers are not to counter sniper unless in an active battlefield. Here Snipers are being used to terrorize posts and patrols, and the idea promulgated by the retired officer is we should do the same to Pakistani troops.

My theory here is a bit convoluted and it lies in rifleman culture. Gun culture for all flaws in Pakistan also yields rifleman culture, where as proper firearms training starts early, good shooting position, proper use of iron sights and good understanding of glass and reticle happens long before entering service. The result is on an average you have better shooters in the countries with rich rifleman culture like United States, Australia, Pakistan, South Africa, vs countries like UK, Germany, China, India, and Japan.

Shooting skills in Pakistani army is celebrated and there is a lot of focus on precision fire, clear with the choice of thier main battle rifle, the G3, arguable the most solid breach in any battle rifle. It has little to no recoil dampening, but yields one of the most accurate fire in semi auto. Compare that to Indian army which ditches the fine SLR for an Insas which picked an AK style operating mechanism, inherently trading accuracy for reliability. This shows you the mindset towards accuracy. Also the developments of these platforms shows you the mindset of both sides, Pakistani army developed the PSR 90 , a scope free floating barrel with polygonal rifling copy of a PSG90 as a development of their license produced G3, while we kept flirting with Insas LMG and AK variants from OFB.

In addition their regular infantry units routinely employ the ssg 69 and multiple 50 cal system they bought in small numbers and trial state of the art sniper systems for short batch purchases, while Indian Army doesn't field anything other that the SVD for precision fire, OFB even stopped producing the Vidhwansak.

Lastly is my observation of disdain for shooting discipline among Indian forces including paramilitary and law enforcement regularly. Poor shooting stance, non-existent cheek welds, bent front sights, poor safety measure routinely visible in in everyday life. In Mumbai airport, security has their AK pointed towards public, Police officers shooting their pistols without lining up the sights, jawans holding the buttstock on the insas literally on their chests. Even in the NCC our CO did not know the correct way of fast reloading a smle. Rifleman culture or lack thereof, and general disdain for firearms has alienated the sport of rifle shooting from India, Army's disregard for precision and range time for the jawans has led to degradation of skills, and poor procurement of good quality firearms does not give Indian forces the opportunity to invest in sniper schools for Forces and Paramilitary.

You mean to say gun wielding goons shooting from their a$$es in their teen makes a better riflemen?

Sniping is specialized trait, just like professional sports shooting. People are highly trained and 1-2 year of local gun shooting in marriages dont make someone better prospect to be a good sniper.

 

[Ashwin]

You mean to say gun wielding goons shooting from their a$$es in their teen makes a better riflemen

No. But as he clearly explained there is a definite culture developed with the easy access of the guns. It might be bad for the society but not for a profession depends on it everyday.

 

[Milspec]

You mean to say gun wielding goons shooting from their a$$es in their teen makes a better riflemen?

I do not think I could be clearer than what I already said. If the only thing you derrived from all that I wrote was some how I was condoning gun violence, then you have other things to worry dear. If you need clarification on something you are having difficulty in understanding, just ask;, you do not need to attach your interpretation by stating "you mean so and so... ". Weapons and respect for weapons was always a part of Indian culture, there are other countries like Switzerland and canada where gun ownership is very high but sane laws, education and enforcement ensure precautions against gun violence.

Sniping is specialized trait, just like professional sports shooting. People are highly trained and 1-2 year of local gun shooting in marriages dont make someone better prospect to be a good sniper.

Read what I wrote, try to comprehend the content and then comeback.

 

[Milspec]

As usual IA generals’ first suggestion is to seek foreign help!

Actually India already has world class snipers in the NSG and the Navy has their own special forces sniper school. I also find it weird that the general didn’t mention the snipers within the special forces of his own branch, he’s either ignorant or has other interests becuase his analysis is woeful and prescriptions flawed.

Special forces are for special missions, they cannot be just deputed for training GI's. If US armed forces just had the Seals/GB's and no Rangers, there would be a gaping hole in sustaining their on ground capabilities. The point is General infantry needs Dedicated detachments of Snipers, better Equipment, and I would add rest of the army needs better accurate firearms, training, range time and shooting discipline. There is not a single 1 MoA system in the infantry barring sf and other specialized units.

 

[Arvind]

I do not think I could be clearer than what I already said. If the only thing you derrived from all that I wrote was some how I was condoning gun violence, then you have other things to worry dear.

Condoning gun violence? Where do you get it from my post? I could not be more clear in my assertion that local population with no formal training but just having hands on illegal guns do not make a good riflemen. Infact its sometime hard to make them un-learn the wrong way they are use to handle a gun.

If you need clarification on something you are having difficulty in understanding, just ask;, you do not need to attach your interpretation by stating "you mean so and so... ". Weapons and respect for weapons was always a part of Indian culture, there are other countries like Switzerland and canada where gun ownership is very high but sane laws, education and enforcement ensure precautions against gun violence.

So isn't an individual is supposed to have their own interpretation? What does that question mark in my statement meant for if not ask and get clarified.

Seems you dont like to be questioned.

Read what I wrote, try to comprehend the content and then comeback.

Never mind.

 

[Arvind]

No. But as he clearly explained there is a definite culture developed with the easy access of the guns. It might be bad for the society but not for a profession depends on it everyday.

Easy access doesn't mean correct training or a better prospect of being a good riflemen. Just because a person got hold of arm few year early in his life, doesn't mean he will be better positioned once the guy with no exposure to arm and him get through specialized training programs.

How much time it will take for a newbie to come at same level of a person with some exposure to arm? Are these pakistanis shooting day in day out? We definitely have some weird picture of them in this case.

If Pakistan has better training standard, say it.

 

[Valkyrja]

The point is General infantry needs Dedicated detachments of Snipers

The IA doesn't have dedicated sniper teams? That's... unique. And disappointing. And I hope I'm just misunderstanding you.

Just about every other modern military has both squad level marksman and dedicated snipers.

This one of my absolute favorite pictures because of the sheer amount of sniper theory on display.

there are other countries like Switzerland and canada where gun ownership is very high but sane laws, education and enforcement ensure precautions against gun violence.

Same here. Firearm ownership is extremely high, but firearm violence is extremely low. Laws have been tightened in recent years of course, to the point that if I didn't have clearance to own them, I'd have a handful of "illegal" firearms in my house including semi-auto shotguns and rifles.

We grow up with firearms. We know how to shoot them, we know how to maintain them and we know how to be safe with them. It's part of our culture. And why we dominate at biathlon.

Easy access doesn't mean correct training or a better prospect of being a good riflemen.

It doesn't, that's true. Being a sniper is different from being a marksman. Many of the best shots and marksman in the Norwegian Military grew up seal hunting with .308 or .338 bolt action rifles and that translate due to the familiarity, but that doesn't afford the specialized tactics, theory and psychology that snipers have.

I grew up with firearms in my hands. With my dad in the military, we had plenty around and I had access to ranges to practice at. When I joined the Norwegian Air Force I could shoot better then most... after I had my eyes fixed that is. But that didn't make me better when I had to transition to shoot on water on a rolling boat, or during aerial gunnery drills due to my unit's specialization. I could ski and shoot better then you've every seen.

I had to learn those skills, but I had plenty of experience with firearms safety, marksmanship and range drills that provided me a solid background to build on from my days on the range as a civilian. Our culture of firearms ownership and usage has translated in the military for thousands of Norwegians like me. And maybe the youth of Pakistan or India are different, you'd be able to say with a lot more authority then me, but for us there's been a translation from civilian ownership to military usage.

 

[Milspec]

Condoning gun violence? Where do you get it from my post? I could not be more clear in my assertion that local population with no formal training but just having hands on illegal guns do not make a good riflemen. Infact its sometime hard to make them un-learn the wrong way they are use to handle a gun.

So isn't an individual is supposed to have their own interpretation? What does that question mark in my statement meant for if not ask and get clarified.

Seems you dont like to be questioned.

Never mind.

The Pakistanis I know who grew up with firearms and hunting, started hunting geese with a 22LR, one of themI met once shared about his childhood where they would put about 1000 rounds of 22lr in a week just plinking within their siblings, with a 22 bolt action rifles and later dropped three years of savings in his teen for a used K98 mauser., very similar to what kids will do here in the US with their cricketts and 10/22's and later transition to Ar15, TC 's Howa's and remington 700's. Shooting with 22lr's and 17hmr builds exceptional iron sights skills which is very helpful in bulding good shooting fundamentals. In the US, every household that is comfortable with owning a firearm, invariable has a Remington 700 at home with a 3-9 scope, anyone who has gone hunting here is well versed with shooting at a min 100 yards within 2-3 MoA, such command on shooting fundamentals, are immensely helpful in making of good marksman. Compare that with zilch , zero exposure to Firearms, Zero pre-disposition towards shooting.
When you are culturally averse to firearms, your institutions do not care much about creating capabilities as well, combine that with the Cluster-*censored* that is India's Small arms production and procurement, you have armed forces and paramilitary which more often than less picks bad firearms, makes poor decision to aid training and sustaining range time, and have generally poor marksmanship skill. Exactly opposite to countries which know and understand the relevance of good equipment and training will be more accommodating in ensuring their forces regularly train and qualify marksmanship requirements, ensure that forces are provided with the best of equipment like firearms, scopes and match grade ammunition, and are more open to adopting advances in firearms such as new cartridges, surface treatments, shooting aids etc.

 

[Milspec]

I had to learn those skills, but I had plenty of experience with firearms safety, marksmanship and range drills that provided me a solid background to build on from my days on the range as a civilian. Our culture of firearms ownership and usage has translated in the military for thousands of Norwegians like me. And maybe the youth of Pakistan or India are different, you'd be able to say with a lot of authority then me, but for use, there's been a translation from civilian ownership to military usage.

@Arvind the exact point I was trying to make.

 

[Milspec]

Easy access doesn't mean correct training or a better prospect of being a good riflemen. Just because a person got hold of arm few year early in his life, doesn't mean he will be better positioned once the guy with no exposure to arm and him get through specialized training programs.

How much time it will take for a newbie to come at same level of a person with some exposure to arm? Are these pakistanis shooting day in day out? We definitely have some weird picture of them in this case.

On contrary there is @Nordic Wolf exactly refuting what you are saying. Having good safety, marksmanship and drill fundamentals will definately aid you be a better marksman.

I can't tell how long will a someone with no exposure take to reach an individual with some exposure. I live in the US and have normal exposure to firearms, not that there is standard, but I feel that it's normal. I usually visit the range about twice a month, and on a average will go through 1500 to 2000 rounds of 7.62 x 39 and 5.56N, about a 1000 rounds of 7.62x51 nato and about 3000 rounds of 9mm in a year because that's what i usually end up buying in a year (not even counting 12g and 22lr). I have been to Carbine camps and Long range classes, high speed low drag classes and 3 gun events over the years and that is similar to most of gun enthusiasts I know. I don't know how long it will take some one without any gun experience to gain the same advantage that someone with normal exposure to guns have when going in for specialized skill, but building basics will definitely be advantageous.

 

[_Anonymous_]

So, in effect, all those years of combating insurgencies have finally started telling on the operational efficiencies of the IA.


Trust Pakistan to be an obliging neighbour and highlight our underbelly, misusing tactics for strategy, as they've done so often in the past, right from Siachen onwards to Kargil, to the Parliamentary attack to 26/11 forcing changes in our doctrines, equipment & deployment of personnel, thus sharpening and shaping the professionalism of our armed forces, inevitably preparing the path for their own doom, on the day of the final reckoning.

Look at the CSN & the ICG , a decade after the 26/11 attacks . While both ought to have been completely rejuvenated and up to the task, we are still some time away from getting there as per the original plan, though a lot has been accomplished.

A much better scenario compared to what it was when 26/11 was executed, considering that both CSN & the up gradation of the ICG as a full time sentry force was conceptualized nearly 2 decades ago by the powers that be with the files making the recommendations gathering dust under babudoms backside citing what else but no funds and no pressing urgency.

After a few study groups and committees, I imagine this problem of the IA too would be set right in about a decade from now with some jugaad & band aid doing the trick with attendant losses, in the interim.

 

[Arvind]

I had to learn those skills, but I had plenty of experience with firearms safety, marksmanship and range drills that provided me a solid background to build on from my days on the range as a civilian. Our culture of firearms ownership and usage has translated in the military for thousands of Norwegians like me. And maybe the youth of Pakistan or India are different, you'd be able to say with a lot more authority then me, but for us there's been a translation from civilian ownership to military usage.

The western standards of having and operating arms are quite high compared to what an armed person in India or Pakistan may have. We never get trained, no standard posture or even a thought for security. Check out the number of deaths caused in this area because of poor handling of guns.

My question is specially in India-Pak scenario. Considering what I said above, does this civilian translation into military usage is so significant that it still give you an edge even the other go through a professional training? That is my what I would love to hear from experienced folk in gun usage.

 

[Milspec]

The western standards of having and operating arms are quite high compared to what an armed person in India or Pakistan may have. We never get trained, no standard posture or even a thought for security. Check out the number of deaths caused in this area because of poor handling of guns.

My question is specially in India-Pak scenario. Considering what I said above, does this civilian translation into military usage is so significant that it still give you an edge even the other go through a professional training? That is my what I would love to hear from experienced folk in gun usage.

Most HSLD drills, ISPC Pistol classes, 3 gun courses, long range clinics, all are conducted by mostly by veterans or highly experienced operators. What do you think such foundation classes will build? Even hunting classes sets up exceptional muzzle discipline and safety regimen.

Take this out of your mind that Pakistani firearm owners are just idiots firing in the air in the marriages. There is a huge population there that can shoot very effectively and more than that, their establishment composed of individuals who appreciate the quality of good marksmanship inculcates programs in the military to create good shooting skills, which is non existent in India. Selection of their small arms points towards the way both forces value accuracy.

 

[randomradio]

The IA doesn't have dedicated sniper teams? That's... unique. And disappointing. And I hope I'm just misunderstanding you.

Just about every other modern military has both squad level marksman and dedicated snipers.

Each battalion has 10 marksmen with the Dragunov. There are about 4800 marksmen positions in the IA in total. But overall sniper training has atrophied.

Interesting fact: The word sniper originated in India.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Disagree quite a bit.

Snipers are not to counter sniper unless in an active battlefield. Here Snipers are being used to terrorize posts and patrols, and the idea promulgated by the retired officer is we should do the same to Pakistani troops.

My theory here is a bit convoluted and it lies in rifleman culture. Gun culture for all flaws in Pakistan also yields rifleman culture, where as proper firearms training starts early, good shooting position, proper use of iron sights and good understanding of glass and reticle happens long before entering service. The result is on an average you have better shooters in the countries with rich rifleman culture like United States, Australia, Pakistan, South Africa, vs countries like UK, China, India, and Japan.

Shooting skills in Pakistani army is celebrated and there is a lot of focus on precision fire, clear with the choice of thier main battle rifle, the G3, arguable the most solid breach in any battle rifle. It has little to no recoil dampening, but yields one of the most accurate fire in semi auto. Compare that to Indian army which ditches the fine SLR for an Insas which picked an AK style operating mechanism, inherently trading accuracy for reliability. This shows you the mindset towards accuracy. Also the developments of these platforms shows you the mindset of both sides, Pakistani army developed the PSR 90 , a scope free floating barrel with polygonal rifling copy of a PSG90 as a development of their license produced G3, while we kept flirting with Insas LMG and AK variants from OFB.

In addition their regular infantry units routinely employ the ssg 69 and multiple 50 cal system they bought in small numbers and trial state of the art sniper systems for short batch purchases, while Indian Army doesn't field anything other that the SVD for precision fire, OFB even stopped producing the Vidhwansak.

Lastly is my observation of disdain for shooting discipline among Indian forces including paramilitary and law enforcement regularly. Poor shooting stance, non-existent cheek welds, bent front sights, poor safety measure routinely visible in in everyday life. In Mumbai airport, security has their AK pointed towards public, Police officers shooting their pistols without lining up the sights, jawans holding the buttstock on the insas literally on their chests. Even in the NCC our CO did not know the correct way of fast reloading a smle. Rifleman culture or lack thereof, and general disdain for firearms has alienated the sport of rifle shooting from India, Army's disregard for precision and range time for the jawans has led to degradation of skills, and poor procurement of good quality firearms does not give Indian forces the opportunity to invest in sniper schools for Forces and Paramilitary.

Does anyone knows how popular are rifle ranges in Pakistan? The only one that I have heard about is one operated by celebrated rifleman Zaid Hamid. BTW there are many countries with very active 'Gun Culture' without any remarkable achievement in sharpshooting. As any skill, these skills should be teachable. One of the most successful snipers Ivan Sidorenko - Wikipedia was a peasant who didn't even start his training till he was conscripted in red army. With a massive population like what we are having, we should be after to sift right candidates and train them with the best western instructors.

I do know even in protection of non-military installations Indian security forces use snipers and anti material rifles.

@Hellfire might know better about Indian sniper situation.

On civilian side, I have seen Serbu BFG-50a in action. I don't want to be anywhere near the business end of this weapon. At USD 10K per piece it is not a bad expense for what it brings on the table. We should have few of these or likes of these on LoC, if we do not already have.