You are imagining things, just like the optimists. A few months of delay in the engine doesn't matter when considering the whole program is delayed by a year. GE will never have such constrains of that scale.
Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions
- Thread starter Schwifty
- Start date
You are imagining things, just like the optimists. A few months of delay in the engine doesn't matter when considering the whole program is delayed by a year. GE will never have such constrains of that scale.
I beg to differ. HAL has screwed up things even more royally. Something as simple as an intermediate trainer jet. A project that was started in 1997 and has to yet see mass production because they were not able to get the design working.
HAL HJT-36 Sitara - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
How can a company which builds aircraft for living screw up subsonic jet?
Even if one accepts ADA etc, how come HAL is not able to manufacture Tejas at a fast enough rate? I mean US in 1980s was doing 200 fighters a year!
It's a program-specific problem, nothing to do with HAL as a company. They may have struggled with Sitara, but not with LCA Mk1A. Anyway what's needed out of them is not R&D, but production, and they are good at that.
The US had 70 years of aerospace history when they made the F-16. When the Chinese made the J-10, they had 50, it took them 60 years to make the J-20. We barely have 30.
And why the F-16 production rate was high? The US ordered thousands of jets. A little over 4600 jets were produced, and the production rate was around 0.5% to 8% of the total per year. The IAF will order 220 LCA Mk1/A and at least 200 Mk2s, and all of that will be delivered by 2040 at 25+ a year. So that's 6-7% per year, so the production rate is pretty much the same. And I've counted export orders for the F-16, we don't know about LCA's exports yet.
Both LCA and MRFA are delayed pending the engine decision on AMCA and the contract with GE for F414.
Adding to what Vstol's posted, the US is not a reliable partner when it comes to R&D, they are only suitable for direct imports.
Also, the weight reduction goal of Mk1A was 1000 kg. If HAL has managed even half that, an afterburning version of the Kaveri can become realistic, with French assistance.
If the US swindles us out of the F414, then we have to ensure the Mk2 is ready to handle AMCA's new engine. And while the first batch of Mk1As are dependent on F404, we need to make the second batch compatible with Kaveri.
If they screw us out of both engines, then just out of spite, I'm sure we will throw money at the Russians.
I doubt they will. We are facing delays in F404 deliveries for some reason, but I doubt they will back off from a contract with India for F414s when we are planning on developing an alternate engine.
Lets wind the clock back to .... 1986. J-10 had not flown at all. Pakistan and China started out with Proposal for a joint trainer. In an year in 1987, design for JL-8 which will later be called as "KaraKoram-8" began. In late 1990, K-8 was flying. It was introduced in 1994. All in all from proposal to introduction, 8 years.
Am I to believe that China in 1986 had more experience and expertise in designing and building a basic subsonic jet than HAL in 2010s? Even if say in 2012 HAL had dumped and restarted from scratch, was it too much to expect that a finished IJT had started production in 2019 or 2020? We all knew it did not go that way.
Oh and the order book. Let see the order book.
In 1975, US set goal of designing and building 650 F-16s at a rate 15 per MONTH. Is it too much to expect that HAL in 2023 (thats almost 50 years after that, you can not claim that US had an experience of 50 years in building jets in 1975... Jets were just 30 year old technology back then) can produce 3 jets per month against an order book of 83 MK1A???? HAL does not plan to produce anything more than 16 PER YEAR anytime soon!
Leave Fifth gen, I have massive doubts that HAL can deliver anything in any reasonable time including powered gliders. Its a company that deserve to be closed and its assets sold to private companies. Govt should get out of the business of manufacturing at all. At the very most, it should be a public private partnership with Govt role limited to providing land and money -- for which they hold shares.
From 1974 to 1989, the Chinese received a lot of Western help. For example, in aviation they received assistance from IAI and Grumman in developing the J-10 airframe, they received a digital FBW from an American company. Elbit transferred their EL/M-2035 and EL/M-2032 for the J-10 as well, which they call KLJ-3. They have received weapons tech as well, for example, the PL-8 is Israel's Python III. The J-10's engine is also based on an American engine. Similarly the Germans transferred engine tech for ships, that they license produce. The Swedes transferred their Stirling AIP tech, which they now use on their subs. And so on. The total help they have received from the West is unknown.
We have never received that level of technical cooperation from anyone. All of our achievements are our own.
Whether you make 4 or 400, there is no difference. Getting to 4 is harder than getting to 400. All you need is orders. HAL can also make 400 or even 1000 LCAs a year, as long as you order up to 10,000 jets. You are comparing irrelevant things. LCA's production rate is being expanded to 27/year, not counting exports or new lines for LCA Mk2. AMCA will be built via PPP, under IAF supervision at Sulur. But HAL is all set to build LCA and TEDBF.
Good watch. Bhadauria mentions the overoptimistic timelines previously given by ADA. He expects the first flight to occur by 2026-27.
In the end, only the French did not transfer weapons capabilities to China.
Gonna have to disappoint you.
The French provided helicopter tech to China. The Dauphin was license produced under the name Harbin Z-9. It went the Flanker way with China illegally continuing production. So France's tech transfers led to the development of the Z-19 and Z-10 attack helicotpers. Both are powered by French Arriel engines, copied. A turboprop variant led to the development of the Y-12 aircraft.
The Z-19 was developed along the lines of Aerospatiale Gazelle, the Chinese bought a few for evaluation. The sanctions prevented license production of the Gazelle.
The Harbin Z-8 is Aerospatiale Super Frelon. It uses Turbomeca Turmo derived WZ-6 engine. Multiple variants have been designed, the latest one called Z-18.
France also sold SAMs post sanctions. The Crotale's cousins are still in use today under the designation HQ-7 and exported under the designation FM-90. Pakistan also operates them, so does Iran.
France also provided an unknown amount of submarine technologies post sanctions. One of those is a missile targeting system in their nuclear submarines. There may have been a lot of cooperation between the two on Agosta as well.
Both Sea Harrier and M2000 sales failed to happen, likely due to sanctions.
And France did try to lift military sanctions on China after the Cold War.
EU Eyes Lifting China Arms Embargo | Arms Control Association
The Israelis and Americans are the ones who helped the most.
The Brits also supplied 2 Spey jet engines in 1975 that were used on their version of the F-4 Phantom II, a year before the F-15 entered service. It's the equivalent of handing over 2 F100s in 2004.
The overall level of assistance the Chinese got was ridiculous. It was quite literally all given away simply 'cause the Chinese had opened up their economy and the West got fooled into thinking the Chinese will switch to a democracy. The irony is there's a greater chance of a post-Putin Russia becoming a democracy.
So, Chinese got all of these for( Promised of) changing political structure away from Communism to democracy, therefore breaking away from USSR....????
In 1969, the Chinese and Soviets fought a short border war, this led to a split between the two and have become enemies ever since. That led to the famous Ping-pong diplomacy in 1971 in Japan and Nixon's China visit in '72. One of the American table tennis players made a sappy speech that sounded like vasudhaiva kutumbakam, and that became famous. Then the Americans lifted the Korean War sanctions and that followed with the opening up of China in 1974. Kissinger led the charge, which is why he's famous.
So the West spent all of Cold War giving them money and technology, and after the Cold War, they continued giving them technology and money, and then after that they let them into the WTO and gave them a frig load of civilian technology and way more money, practically sold themselves to the Chinese, until Trump was like, "WHAT THE F&CK!!!"
Basically, the West collectively removed their brains before talking to China in 1972. After figuring out that they were basically victims of the greatest scam in human history, that lasted 40 years, still continues for some, they are coming to terms with it. Now, after creating a second superpower, their next great plan is to rely on India.
But t
Basically American capitalist did not wanted to pay enough to Americans workers so they wanted to outsource all manufacturing to someone else..
And kept printing dollar at home after 1971 delinking of dollar with gold..
But they made sure future Chinese domestic consumption should fell down.. that's how one child policy came in exchange of all this what they are today... Today china tfr is very low they will have alot of old population in future and less working population in future..
Basically American capitalist did not wanted to pay enough to Americans workers so they wanted to outsource all manufacturing to someone else..
And kept printing dollar at home after 1971 delinking of dollar with gold..
Once the Chinese fix their economy, they can fix their birthrate through harsh regulation.
Weirdly, both Europe and the US happily enriched their enemies, including oil trade with the Soviets. The overreliance of the Soviet on oil and the Chinese one-child policy had nothing to do with the West. The Soviets and Chinese were just dumb enough to do it, typical of socialist eonomies to dig their own graves.
I
The fact that Rockefeller foundation funded a research in india during Indira for non surgical methods to make people sterile although nothing came out of it but still Indira sterilized 6 million peoples..
Each couple in china has responsibility of 8 parents. China will not have growth like it had before which was not organic either..
It's real estate is not going to recover they used more concrete in 3 years than usa did in entire 20th century.. it has build more houses than the number of people.. real estate accounts 29% of its GDP..
China literally started making bullet train to come out of 2007 crash to show +ve numbers.. since then they have invested alot.. there railways make looses in tens of billions every year.. the railway ministry has a debt of 900 billion. This all things are inflated those real estate bubble this all are the thing in its GDP..
It's economic numbers are highly inflated the light density data of china shows China's GDP could be around half what they are claiming..
It has longest lockdowns still after COVID in 3-4 years it added 4 trillions in its Economy.. where all other parameters are -ve still they had growth..
I Heard it was done in exchange of American financial & economical support.. this policy was applied the same year when china opened up. 1979.. Kissinger was always doing stuff like population control take it in India or Africa..
The fact that Rockefeller foundation funded a research in india during Indira for non surgical methods to make people sterile although nothing came out of it but still Indira sterilized 6 million peoples..
Each couple in china has responsibility of 8 parents. China will not have growth like it had before which was not organic either..
It's real estate is not going to recover they used more concrete in 3 years than usa did in entire 20th century.. it has build more houses than the number of people.. real estate accounts 29% of its GDP..
China literally started making bullet train to come out of 2007 crash to show +ve numbers.. since then they have invested alot.. there railways make looses in tens of billions every year.. the railway ministry has a debt of 900 billion. This all things are inflated those real estate bubble this all are the thing in its GDP..
It's economic numbers are highly inflated the light density data of china shows China's GDP could be around half what they are claiming..
It has longest lockdowns still after COVID in 3-4 years it added 4 trillions in its Economy.. where all other parameters are -ve still they had growth..
& When Tejas mk2 will be inducted
Even if their economy is overinflated, their infrastructure is amazing and will last centuries. If they get their birth rates up, then they can solve their high dependency ratio over the long term.
Yeah, the West faked the population crisis to put controls on population growth in the Third World. Any idiot by the 90s could tell that population wasn't going to be a problem. Luckily, we didn't take it seriously, while the Chinese overdid it.
2030-32 or 2038+, implying never. The Americans could hold the F414 program hostage.
