Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[Rajput Lion]

Kaveri is following its own path. The AMCA engine will give us the know-how and know-why for future programs.

And if the Americans provide 100% ToT for F414, then they are a shoo-in for AMCA's engine as well.

We need to get ahead of the curve and try to enter a JV for VCE tech. That way we won't play catch-up and our aviation industry would remain up to date.

Without VCE tech, we won't be able to start our next generation air dominance program aka MKI replacement, IMHO.

 

[randomradio]

We need to get ahead of the curve and try to enter a JV for VCE tech. That way we won't play catch-up and our aviation industry would remain up to date.

Without VCE tech, we won't be able to start our next generation air dominance program aka MKI replacement, IMHO.

We need hot parts, we can take care of engine design for the cold parts.

 

[randomradio]

Its called moolah. Paisa fekh, tamasha dekh. When you throw peanuts at developments, you will get a monkey. Not a gorilla.

Sufficient funding was provided, or we wouldn't have had a family of engines at the end of the day.

The problem is the time it's taken, their fault, and its low use case, not their fault.

One criticism is we are reliant on foreign test facilities, the lack of enough capex here is valid criticism. But GTRE got all the money they needed to make one engine and its derivatives.

 

[LX1111]

I recall that in the 1990s, when China wanted to import AL 31 production from Russia, 14 academicians of AVIC signed a petition to the State Council. Said the introduction of AL 31 would destroy China's WS 10, it would destroy China's own engine industry

Sufficient funding was provided, or we wouldn't have had a family of engines at the end of the day.

The problem is the time it's taken, their fault, and its low use case, not their fault.

One criticism is we are reliant on foreign test facilities, the lack of enough capex here is valid criticism. But GTRE got all the money they needed to make one engine and its derivatives.
.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I recall that in the 1990s, when China wanted to import AL 31 production from Russia, 14 academicians of AVIC signed a petition to the State Council. Said the introduction of AL 31 would destroy China's WS 10, it would destroy China's own engine industry

Chinese have indeed done a commendable job as far as building their aviation industry. But your engines are still far away from western engines in terms of TBO.

We on the other hand now have loaf of world's best engine tech(in terms of low maintenance, safety and TBO) in form of GE engines. So no matter how late we're in terns of our own turbofan engine, once we get there we shall emulate the western especially the American standard in all the above mentioned things.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[zinswinsin]

We don't have time, 4.5 engine tech for hot parts is something China and Russia both have, so it makes sense to just give it to India.

100% TOT is a must imo. I hope this is the start of a productive industrial-technical partnership.

 

[LX1111]

Chinese have indeed done a commendable job as far as building their aviation industry. But your engines are still far away from western engines in terms of TBO.

We on the other hand now have loaf of world's best engine tech(in terms of low maintenance, safety and TBO) in form of GE engines. So no matter how late we're in terns of our own turbofan engine, once we get there we shall emulate the western especially the American standard in all the above mentioned things.

Just my 2 cents...

For now, the F 414 deal is mainly licensed, with about 60% of production in India. No different from India's AL 31 production, WS 19 is already under development, and in February was AECC announced that it research plan was 25% shorter than expected，

 

[Hydra]

For now, the F 414 deal is mainly licensed, with about 60% of production in India. No different from India's AL 31 production, WS 19 is already under development, and in February was AECC announced that it research plan was 25% shorter than expected，

Can u tell the thrust of ws10 & ws19?

 

[Rajput Lion]

For now, the F 414 deal is mainly licensed, with about 60% of production in India. No different from India's AL 31 production, WS 19 is already under development, and in February was AECC announced that it research plan was 25% shorter than expected，

But according to some sources you are still 2% away from full indigenisation, aren't you? WS19 is for J-35, if I am not wrong!

 

[LX1111]

Can u tell the thrust of ws10 & ws19?

WS 10 belongs to the third generation high-thrust turbofan, to the standard F 110, T / W is about 8.
WS 19 belongs to the fourth generation medium thrust turbofan engine, to the standard EJ 200, T/W about 10

 

[randomradio]

I recall that in the 1990s, when China wanted to import AL 31 production from Russia, 14 academicians of AVIC signed a petition to the State Council. Said the introduction of AL 31 would destroy China's WS 10, it would destroy China's own engine industry

That's being corrupt.

This benefits only the industry, not the air force, that's stuck with old technologies. What India is doing benefits both.

We are buying both Russian and Western engine tech, modernising exiting engines (AL-31FP) on our own and developing new engine tech at the same time. Which is why we had such a huge advantage with the Su-30MKI against the PLAAF for so long. Imagine had the Rafale deal gone through a decade ago?

And even without owning any engine technology, we now have a massive engine industry.

Why does this work for us, it's 'cause we have multiple aviation programs. LCA will absorb possibly 100% of the F414, which probably has the best engine hot parts in the world today. We are already manufacturing 85% of the AL-31FP and replacing the rest with Indian parts. We are developing the Kaveri engine for UCAVs and will soon begin development of an AMCA engine with a foreign partner, combining Indian tech with Western tech. Plus if we manufacture the Rafale in India, we will get another 100% ToT for this engine. That's 5 engine programs. All that for just a few billion dollars.

So the IAF gets top notch technologies and the industry gets Western-standard engine tech. And development time is compressed to just 10 years.

China could have produced the AL-31F for the J-11A/B and developed the WS-10 for J-10 and J-16. Instead, China fell for the industry's trap. The same thing has happened in the Type 052. Instead of 1 larger S-band radar, PLAN was forced to accept two different smaller S and C band radars because the lab that developed the C band radar wanted to participate too. Something like that can never happen in India.

 

[LX1111]

That's being corrupt.

This benefits only the industry, not the air force, that's stuck with old technologies. What India is doing benefits both.

We are buying both Russian and Western engine tech, modernising exiting engines (AL-31FP) on our own and developing new engine tech at the same time. Which is why we had such a huge advantage with the Su-30MKI against the PLAAF for so long. Imagine had the Rafale deal gone through a decade ago?

And even without owning any engine technology, we now have a massive engine industry

I have not seen official data on the production of AL 31 in India, nor have I seen specific information on the improvement of AL 31 in India，For now, India is mainly assembling the AL 31 or making simple parts, just as Türkiye makes the F 110，India's own Kaffee engine has made little headway. I may call it death too much, but it is more appropriate to call it hibernation，France's Snecma has advised India to replace its core engine, which means the engine is fundamentally a failure.So it is an exaggeration to say that India has a good engine industry

 

[LX1111]

Why does this work for us, it's 'cause we have multiple aviation programs. LCA will absorb possibly 100% of the F414, which probably has the best engine hot parts in the world today. We are already manufacturing 85% of the AL-31FP and replacing the rest with Indian parts. We are developing the Kaveri engine for UCAVs and will soon begin development of an AMCA engine with a foreign partner, combining Indian tech with Western tech. Plus if we manufacture the Rafale in India, we will get another 100% ToT for this engine. That's 5 engine programs. All that for just a few billion dollars.

So the IAF gets top notch technologies and the industry gets Western-standard engine tech. And development time is compressed to just 10 years

I can call it your fantasy, India is now only getting the assembly line, and South Korea, Poland is no different，You fantasize that India can reach the level of GE

 

[LX1111]

China could have produced the AL-31F for the J-11A/B and developed the WS-10 for J-10 and J-16. Instead, China fell for the industry's trap. The same thing has happened in the Type 052. Instead of 1 larger S-band radar, PLAN was forced to accept two different smaller S and C band radars because the lab that developed the C band radar wanted to participate too. Something like that can never happen in India.

China has been using WS 10 since J -11b, and the WS 10B used by J -16 has reached 144KN.
The 99M1 engine developed by the Russian Salute Design Bureau has also achieved a thrust of 137KN, which is invested by China,For J -10 B / C
No C-Band radar on 052, that's HQ 9's transponder antenna

 

[Ashwin]

I have not seen official data on the production of AL 31 in India, nor have I seen specific information on the improvement of AL 31 in India，For now, India is mainly assembling the AL 31 or making simple parts, just as Türkiye makes the F 110，India's own Kaffee engine has made little headway. I may call it death too much, but it is more appropriate to call it hibernation，France's Snecma has advised India to replace its core engine, which means the engine is fundamentally a failure.So it is an exaggeration to say that India has a good engine industry

You clearly don’t know much about anything india. You have read some random things probably from pakistani sources. Thus trying to educate us with half truths.

We produce AL-31 engine from scratch. We signed agreement for 30 year production for ~950+ engines in early 2000s. Russians or western nations trust us to share production technology. We may not know who to develop but we know what to produce. We increased MTBO working with Russian.

French offer with Kaveri core replacement was from 2004 when it was still considered or LCA. Also makes perfect sense financially. Those are no longer valid.

Chinese put in insane amount of money over few decades to have few flight worthy engines. We dont have that desperation because we have technical access. Few billion investment with the french will get us a proper EJ200 class engine with western level reliability in a decade. Lets hope Chinese can reach such reliability after spending $30 billion or so.

 

[randomradio]

I have not seen official data on the production of AL 31 in India, nor have I seen specific information on the improvement of AL 31 in India，For now, India is mainly assembling the AL 31 or making simple parts, just as Türkiye makes the F 110，India's own Kaffee engine has made little headway. I may call it death too much, but it is more appropriate to call it hibernation，France's Snecma has advised India to replace its core engine, which means the engine is fundamentally a failure.So it is an exaggeration to say that India has a good engine industry

India’s HAL Makes 50th Su-30 Engine Built from Raw Materials

BENGALURU --- The 50th AL31FP engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi Engine Division of HAL (Koraput) has been handed over to IAF in Delhi ...

www.defense-aerospace.com

“The AL31FP engine powers Su-30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forgings are manufactured at HAL”, said Mr. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL. He handed over the documents related to the 50th Raw Material Phase Engine of Su-30MKI to Air Marshal S.B. Deo, VCAS.

The replacement of Russian parts with India is a new development. We will know more in time.

 

[randomradio]

China has been using WS 10 since J -11b, and the WS 10B used by J -16 has reached 144KN.
The 99M1 engine developed by the Russian Salute Design Bureau has also achieved a thrust of 137KN, which is invested by China,For J -10 B / C
No C-Band radar on 052, that's HQ 9's transponder antenna
View attachment 28065

 

[lcafanboy]

We need to get ahead of the curve and try to enter a JV for VCE tech. That way we won't play catch-up and our aviation industry would remain up to date.

Without VCE tech, we won't be able to start our next generation air dominance program aka MKI replacement, IMHO.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665065818848149506

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665066291164590082

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665066611529641985

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665067224728576001

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665067548868505602

https://twitter.com/Jordan_W_Taylor/status/1665067646126104576?s=20

Apparently GE is already on the verge of making 6th gen fighter engines. GE414 itself is being transformed into a 6th generation engine using newer ceramic materials and even hot section like Blades which till now are made using single crystal Nickel super alloy blades. So for GE selling off older technologies to India for a huge sum of money which they can use to make 6th generation engine makes good business sense as that will still keep India grappling for newer technologies as when AMCA arrives I am sure GE414 won't be able to power it as the AMCA will definitely be under powered if it uses GE 414 as AMCA mk2 will definitely weigh more than conceptualized due to 6th gen avionics & DEW electric power needs...

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665065818848149506

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665066291164590082

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665066611529641985

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665067224728576001

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665067548868505602

https://twitter.com/Jordan_W_Taylor/status/1665067646126104576?s=20

Apparently GE is already on the verge of making 6th gen fighter engines. GE414 itself is being transformed into a 6th generation engine using newer ceramic materials and even hot section like Blades which till now are made using single crystal Nickel super alloy blades. So for GE selling off older technologies to India for a huge sum of money which they can use to make 6th generation engine makes good business sense as that will still keep India grappling for newer technologies as when AMCA arrives I am sure GE414 won't be able to power it as the AMCA will definitely be under powered if it uses GE 414 as AMCA mk2 will definitely weigh more than conceptualized due to 6th gen avionics & DEW electric power needs...

That's how the world works. We should be thankful for giving access to current available tech at such cheap rates.

Build infrastructure and invest in R&D to catch up. There is no other way around it.

Next generation engine is from ADVENT program for 6th generation fighter and F-35 reengine. CMC is very small part in a larger picture.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665065818848149506

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665066291164590082

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665066611529641985

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665067224728576001

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1665067548868505602

https://twitter.com/Jordan_W_Taylor/status/1665067646126104576?s=20

Apparently GE is already on the verge of making 6th gen fighter engines. GE414 itself is being transformed into a 6th generation engine using newer ceramic materials and even hot section like Blades which till now are made using single crystal Nickel super alloy blades. So for GE selling off older technologies to India for a huge sum of money which they can use to make 6th generation engine makes good business sense as that will still keep India grappling for newer technologies as when AMCA arrives I am sure GE414 won't be able to power it as the AMCA will definitely be under powered if it uses GE 414 as AMCA mk2 will definitely weigh more than conceptualized due to 6th gen avionics & DEW electric power needs...

@vstol Jockey hopes this is offered for AMCA.