T-90 Bhishma / T-72 Ajeya of Indian Army : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

Show me any recent pic of an operational IA T-72 with DRAWA-T? This picture which I have attached is the original CIA upgrade.
View attachment 51181

They wanted 600 in total and got just that. Of these 600, the second batch of 300 units were inked in 2010 dubbed "TISAS-300" which had "enhanced specifications". There's also TISAS(U) upgrades with some TIFCS elements. View attachment 51183View attachment 51184View attachment 51185


Is there any reference or citation

Well idk, I have very strong reasons to believe ESSA-72 is TIFCS-418 and Elbit TIFCS is TIFCS-1000 which I have mentioned in my older messages. If you have any source for this, then pls send.

First time hearing it, could be true or not, I don't know. But the interiors I have seen so far do have Mk.2s. Then there's also the gripe about what exactly is the difference between Mk.1 and Mk.2, if it's the FOVs (even the BMP one has different figures) or digital/analogue FPA or something else. View attachment 51186View attachment 51187


A recent Army promo literally shows a T-72 with ESSA-72.View attachment 51188View attachment 51189
IOL has tenders where they are requesting it's deliverables. Product 7136 is ESSA-72.View attachment 51191

Okay, let's begin from scratch. I checked my records, and this is how it is.

Drawa-T was selected for Rhino. You won't find them in pics because it's FCS and internal to the tank. The TI is Israeli. It was selected at the same time as Sosna-U and ESSA-72 were evaluated, and was supposed to act as a stopgap. In the end, even Sosna-U and ESSA-72 did not go through in their original makes, although some tanks got them. So it wasn't a competition between all 3.

Here are two additional links for the Drawa.

Project Rhino – T-72 Upgrade – Indian Army

T-72 Ajeya Indian main battle tank (1982)

Indian main battle tank T-72 Ajeya - Developed from the export version of the Soviet T-72 called T-72M, it was mdernized in the 1990s as the Mark II with components from the Polish PT-91

tank-afv.com

ELOP TISAS was chosen as the TI stopgap, and the contract overlaps with Drawa. So all the Drawas come with TISAS. Initial numbers planned were 700, but only 600 were contracted. I guess we ordered more TISAS with the assumption that we could buy more Drawas for it. The larger contract could have made it more worthwhile for ToT. 450 more would have doubled the previous contract.

Since we were denied ToT for Drawa, we had to restart the FCS program. The TISAS acted as standalone.

TIFCS is part of the Israeli family. We chose this as our next gen FCS to succeed Drawa.

https://www.elbitsystems.com/land/combat-vehicle-systems/optronics/tifcs

Looks like we chose the ESSA-72U TI because it uses dual axis stabilization and fully integrates with the fire control compared to the original.

And on TIFCS-1000, we removed ESSA-72U and replaced it with Elbit's LWIR TI instead.

I knew we had Catherine-FC on TIFCS-418, but I did not know it was via Peleng's ESSA family, 'cause the original T-90S-derived version was rejected the first time. So I thought the Israelis did things on their own considering the FCS is theirs and used Belarussian parts to complete it rather than just Frankenstein it as per your document.

As for CTI, yes, the Mk2s are on T-72s, it's not zero, but not in the numbers as per contract. The program is delayed by a year or more compared to where it should be due to TIFCS getting the higher priority. Assuming each upgrade takes a month for a batch, it's easier for the IA to take 1 batch of tanks out of circulation for two months instead of taking out 2 batches of tanks out for 1 month. And I'm sure the TIFCS is the primary upgrade, so the secondary CTI upgrade is easier to follow as it integrates into the TIFCS for HTK.

So as and when the TIFCS-418s are delivered, the CTI is more likely to follow. And once the 1000s attain maturity, the CTIs for it should follow as well. And because Optel said their 418s were delayed due to delays from the Belarussian side, the CTIs are naturally delayed too, which in turn delays the CTIs for the 1000s due to potential limits to the number of tanks available for upgrades at a time.

Hopefully things are a lot more clear now.

 

[RandomGoober]

"TIFCS" in IOL's product brochure. Most likely ESSA-72/TIFCS-418 (matches the FOV figures and the "recommended by T-72/90 chief designer" mention). https://indiaoptel.in/product-brochure

As I understand it, this is some kind of a redundancy measure or just IOL wanting to have its own solution for the T-72s.

The most ubiquitous Elbit TIFCS/TISAS systems on the T-72s right now are by ADTL.

 

[RandomGoober]

CTI-T72 Mk.2 apparently has a 640x512 detector. This might explain the difference between Mk.2 and Mk.1 (which has a 320x256 detector).

 

[randomradio]

"TIFCS" in IOL's product brochure. Most likely ESSA-72/TIFCS-418 (matches the FOV figures and the "recommended by T-72/90 chief designer" mention). https://indiaoptel.in/product-brochureView attachment 51662View attachment 51663

As I understand it, this is some kind of a redundancy measure or just IOL wanting to have its own solution for the T-72s.

The most ubiquitous Elbit TIFCS/TISAS systems on the T-72s right now are by ADTL.

Rather this proves ESSA-72U is using the Catherine-FC in the LWIR band.

 

[RandomGoober]

Rather this proves ESSA-72U is using the Catherine-FC in the LWIR band.

Gunner thermals are mostly LWIR. This is ESSA-72 using Catherine-FC (similiar zooms and FOVs).

ESSA-72U has different zooms and FOVs and it also adds a new day channel and integrated LRF, which normal ESSAs don't have. It also likely doesn't use Catherine-FC.

 

[randomradio]

Gunner thermals are mostly LWIR. This is ESSA-72 using Catherine-FC (similiar zooms and FOVs). View attachment 51696

ESSA-72U has different zooms and FOVs and it also adds a new day channel and integrated LRF, which normal ESSAs don't have. It also likely doesn't use Catherine-FC.
View attachment 51697

The second brochure is for the T-72BME which uses the Catherine FC, the MWIR version.

The "or" indicates it can handle the LWIR too. So ours comes with LWIR.

 

[RandomGoober]

117th T-90 Bhishma Mk.3

https://twitter.com/x/status/2057894582378229823

 

[Ad 04 30]

What are the full details of Mk3 upgrade?

What does it include?


Also, do we own the IPR for guns and sights?

 

[Ashwin]

Source

 

[RandomGoober]

Source

These T-72s look really strange. Never seen that ERA arrangement before and also the gunner sight looks weird.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

These T-72s look really strange. Never seen that ERA arrangement before and also the gunner sight looks weird.

During installation of the cage the iconic light along the canon has been replaced with ERA panels.

 

[randomradio]

These T-72s look really strange. Never seen that ERA arrangement before and also the gunner sight looks weird.

It's the good ol' CIA planned 15 years ago.

The ERA arrangement is a lot cleaner now ever since they got rid of the infrared searchlight (large yellow disc) and gunner's laser sight (the box above the main gun).

TPD-K1 removed the need for the box and the searchlight. And CTI removed the need for the commander's searchlight (smaller green disc). The searchlights acted as a torch at night for the earlier optics. The model above already has a GTI in place.

 

[RandomGoober]

It's the good ol' CIA planned 15 years ago.

The early CIA looked like this:
All the ERA on the cheeks was installed on angled mounts (think of it like T-72AV vs T-72B with K1). In those new post pics, it looks like majority of the ERA was fixed on the natural curvature of the turret and you can see it has way more ERA elsewhere.


Also worth mentioning that we later added dividers/barriers between the ERA columns on the turret roof and hull glacis in production CIAs to maybe prevent mass sympathetic detonation.



You can see that those tanks in that post don't have it either.

 

[RandomGoober]

The ERA arrangement is a lot cleaner now ever since they got rid of the infrared searchlight (large yellow disc) and gunner's laser sight (the box above the main gun).

TPD-K1 removed the need for the box and the searchlight. And CTI removed the need for the commander's searchlight (smaller green disc). The searchlights acted as a torch at night for the earlier optics. The model above already has a GTI in place.

That box above the main gun is actually the external commander display.

TPD-K1 is the day sight, the searchlight was for the old legacy night sight.

 

[randomradio]

The early CIA looked like this:View attachment 51829 View attachment 51827View attachment 51828View attachment 51821View attachment 51823
All the ERA on the cheeks was installed on angled mounts (think of it like T-72AV vs T-72B with K1). In those new post pics, it looks like majority of the ERA was fixed on the natural curvature of the turret and you can see it has way more ERA elsewhere.
View attachment 51830

Also worth mentioning that we later added dividers/barriers between the ERA columns on the turret roof and hull glacis in production CIAs to maybe prevent mass sympathetic detonation.
View attachment 51824View attachment 51825
View attachment 51826

You can see that those tanks in that post don't have it either.

When I said 15 years, I was referring to how old the program is and how it took this long to build it up to standards as was envisioned. The picture I posted is the second CIA, with ERA frames.

The first CIAs came with DRDO's ERA Mk1 without frames, the yellow tanks in your post. The second CIA, camo tank, came with the same ERA but with frames. The new tanks come with ERA Mk2 without frames. The second design was chosen due to the packing density and lack of weak points. That's why the angles are different. And don't confuse this ERA Mk2 with the T-90-style Mk2s, that design wasn't chosen. It's probably the next evolution if chosen.

As for why angled mounts were chosen for the first 2 modernizations compared to the third, the first two used Russian-style fitment for the Kontakt-1 design, ERA Mk1 is an Indianised Kontakt-1, and ERA Mk2 is an Indianised Kontakt-5, so the third one adapts to the shape of the tank.

The frames were added on the second not just for protection from sympathetic detonation, but also for making the angle uniform and the bricks easier to replace. ERA Mk2 minimized/removed the threat of sympathetic detonations through design efficiency alone. And Kontakt-5 already comes with better maintenance procedures in mind.

Yeah, you are right about it being the commander's aux display. Our tanks came with a built-in laser right from the beginning. So, more accurately, gunner TI removed the need for TPD-K1's night abilities, hence the removal of the searchlight. Plus in the new image, the aux displays may either not have been fitted temporarily, removed for the photo, or comes on only some specific command/training versions.