Sukhoi Su-30MKI

AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
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Indian….. helmet, targeting pod, IRST, IFF/CIT, the full EW suite, cockpit etc. Many of them are official projects.
Yes. It’s substantial if we look holistically. But the poster was proposing J11 type of indigenisation, which IMO is not possible under current set up.
BTW how an AESA radar (Uttam mk 2 as mentioned in some reports) which is based on western mil std will talk to a plane with Russian avionics having Russian GOST data bus. Or we planning to rewrite the whole avionics suite for MKI ? Which is next to impossible imo.

Some Indian private company [Tonbo ?] is involved I believe. So it’s good news.
EW suite:

And yes, the MKI will use podded jammer. The IAF doesn't want major changes in the airframe. The podded jammer is under flight testing.
What kind of EWS (internal I assume) are they going to use ? Is it a distributed antenna system (DAS) ?
Podded SPJs are convenient and provides mission flexibility. So no


Uttam radar development is complete. Now it's only about adding in more advanced tech or scaling it up. A GaN version will begin testing next year. Regardless of whether it's chosen or not for the MKI, at least the option exists now.
Uttam should be fitted in LCA without waiting for GAN or Vivaldi TRM development. We need to tailor its backend processing which will need a lot of operational data and time. Upscaling it by adding few TRMs, increasing cooling power or by using GAN modules will not be that big of headache.
Plenty of non-Russians weapons are being integrated on the MKI. The latest one was the MICA IR. Derby ER is coming up next along with ASRAAM.

SPICE integration has already completed. Two WVR missiles, one BVR missile and a family of glide bombs, that's already plenty.
All three are Heat seeking/IR/EO homing WVRAAMs with no communication with the Radar of the jet.
Even those Spice and Popeye use separate modules to function.
The only thing left is a Western stealth cruise missile, but one hasn't been chosen yet, pending an Indian option.
Nirbhay/ITCM will be enough for MKI as we already have SCALP on Rafale for the time being till we have our own longer range alternative.
 

HariPrasad

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Dec 5, 2018
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AESA radar is not clear yet, but most of the stuff going on MKI will be Indian. This includes the helmet, targeting pod, IRST, IFF/CIT, the full EW suite, cockpit etc. Many of them are official projects.

IRST:

EW suite:

And yes, the MKI will use podded jammer. The IAF doesn't want major changes in the airframe. The podded jammer is under flight testing.

Uttam radar development is complete. Now it's only about adding in more advanced tech or scaling it up. A GaN version will begin testing next year. Regardless of whether it's chosen or not for the MKI, at least the option exists now.

Plenty of non-Russians weapons are being integrated on the MKI. The latest one was the MICA IR. Derby ER is coming up next along with ASRAAM. SPICE integration has already completed. Two WVR missiles, one BVR missile and a family of glide bombs, that's already plenty. The only thing left is a Western stealth cruise missile, but one hasn't been chosen yet, pending an Indian option.

Yes, Even MKI has many avionics which are not Russian from day 1. After agreeing that Astra's seeker is replaced by Indian seeker, he once again says that Astra and Brahmos' seeker are Russian. How can you argue with a guy who changes his position after couple of post.

AESA radar is not clear yet, but most of the stuff going on MKI will be Indian. This includes the helmet, targeting pod, IRST, IFF/CIT, the full EW suite, cockpit etc. Many of them are official projects.

IRST:

EW suite:

And yes, the MKI will use podded jammer. The IAF doesn't want major changes in the airframe. The podded jammer is under flight testing.

Uttam radar development is complete. Now it's only about adding in more advanced tech or scaling it up. A GaN version will begin testing next year. Regardless of whether it's chosen or not for the MKI, at least the option exists now.

Plenty of non-Russians weapons are being integrated on the MKI. The latest one was the MICA IR. Derby ER is coming up next along with ASRAAM. SPICE integration has already completed. Two WVR missiles, one BVR missile and a family of glide bombs, that's already plenty. The only thing left is a Western stealth cruise missile, but one hasn't been chosen yet, pending an Indian option.

Kota Harinarayan in his latest interview said that they have developed the capability to integrate any weapon with Tejas. India follows open system architech algorithm which makes integration of other weapons very easy.

AESA radar is not clear yet, but most of the stuff going on MKI will be Indian. This includes the helmet, targeting pod, IRST, IFF/CIT, the full EW suite, cockpit etc. Many of them are official projects.

IRST:

EW suite:

And yes, the MKI will use podded jammer. The IAF doesn't want major changes in the airframe. The podded jammer is under flight testing.

Uttam radar development is complete. Now it's only about adding in more advanced tech or scaling it up. A GaN version will begin testing next year. Regardless of whether it's chosen or not for the MKI, at least the option exists now.

Plenty of non-Russians weapons are being integrated on the MKI. The latest one was the MICA IR. Derby ER is coming up next along with ASRAAM. SPICE integration has already completed. Two WVR missiles, one BVR missile and a family of glide bombs, that's already plenty. The only thing left is a Western stealth cruise missile, but one hasn't been chosen yet, pending an Indian option.

Uttam with some 700+TRM is under testing. Fabrication of Uttam mk2 with 900+ TRM is recently hivdn for 2 units at a cost of 28 crore INR. Next in line is GAN based Uttam.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,576
11,326
India
Yes. It’s substantial if we look holistically. But the poster was proposing J11 type of indigenisation, which IMO is not possible under current set up.
BTW how an AESA radar (Uttam mk 2 as mentioned in some reports) which is based on western mil std will talk to a plane with Russian avionics having Russian GOST data bus. Or we planning to rewrite the whole avionics suite for MKI ? Which is next to impossible imo.

The MKI uses NATO standard and an Indian mission computer. We can even integrate the American APG-83 on it, if given the tech. It doesn't use exclusive Russian data bus.

Some Indian private company [Tonbo ?] is involved I believe. So it’s good news.

Should be many companies, since it's a tender.

What kind of EWS (internal I assume) are they going to use ? Is it a distributed antenna system (DAS) ?
Podded SPJs are convenient and provides mission flexibility. So no

Yeah, internal. A distributed antenna for RWR and ESM is the norm anyway. SPJ will be in the form of wingtip pods, which is also pretty normal for a Flanker. The Typhoon also uses a similar setup. The added advantage for the MKI is it generates its own power and can be upgraded much faster.

Uttam should be fitted in LCA without waiting for GAN or Vivaldi TRM development. We need to tailor its backend processing which will need a lot of operational data and time. Upscaling it by adding few TRMs, increasing cooling power or by using GAN modules will not be that big of headache.

That's already been done as of a few years ago. Uttam Mk1 is production ready and will go on LCA Mk1A from the 2nd squadron onwards. Uttam Mk2 for LCA Mk2 is also ready and will go on the prototype next year.

All three are Heat seeking/IR/EO homing WVRAAMs with no communication with the Radar of the jet.
Even those Spice and Popeye use separate modules to function.

Both WVR and BVR missiles require integration with the radar. SPICE doesn't. You forget that Astra has been integrated with the MKI's radar without needing any Russian assistance. In Indian contracts, even for MMRCA, OEMs must allow enough source code transfer that allows the independent integration of any weapons of our choice.

Nirbhay/ITCM will be enough for MKI as we already have SCALP on Rafale for the time being till we have our own longer range alternative.

The IAF was looking at both the Taurus and Storm Shadow for the MKI. Regardless of Indian alternatives in the future, a stopgap number is needed through imports.
 

AbRaj

Senior member
Dec 6, 2017
2,490
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Republic of Wadiya
The MKI uses NATO standard and an Indian mission computer. We can even integrate the American APG-83 on it, if given the tech. It doesn't use exclusive Russian data bus.
As per PKS it’s still GOST R.
And I assume there is more than just Data Bus compatibility, required for deep integration of various components using feedback data from Radar, EWS and avionics which is encrypted by the OEM precisely to prevent third party access. you can’t change Radar without messing up with other systems, without authorisations/encryption codes by

@Picdelamirand-oli can verify that.
Should be many companies, since it's a tender.
True. And I don’t think it’ll be a problem.
Yeah, internal. A distributed antenna for RWR and ESM is the norm anyway. SPJ will be in the form of wingtip pods, which is also pretty normal for a Flanker. The Typhoon also uses a similar setup. The added advantage for the MKI is it generates its own power and can be upgraded much faster.
True. And that’s why I think changing the engine to AL-41 makes sense. As with more powerful radar, EWS , SPJ and other planned electronics upgrades, it will need much more powerful IDG and therefore higher thrust engine.
That's already been done as of a few years ago. Uttam Mk1 is production ready and will go on LCA Mk1A from the 2nd squadron onwards. Uttam Mk2 for LCA Mk2 is also ready and will go on the prototype next year.
Uttam is not inducted and operational yet. It still has to face the real life missions on any operational fighter jet. It’s still being tested by LRDE on a LCA testbed, which is different from being operational.
Both WVR and BVR missiles require integration with the radar. SPICE doesn't. You forget that Astra has been integrated with the MKI's radar without needing any Russian assistance. In Indian contracts, even for MMRCA, OEMs must allow enough source code transfer that allows the independent integration of any weapons of our choice.
We do have (as per PKS) agreements with Russian OEMs for integration of locally developed weapons. It’s just that Russians are not that keen to help certify them on Russian platforms and insist on using Russian products. And that’s why we have to cut deals with them for cooperation. Like purchasing Russian seekers for Astra or Buying propulsion system for integration of own seekers on Yakhont.
Same is true for Nirbhay.
The IAF was looking at both the Taurus and Storm Shadow for the MKI. Regardless of Indian alternatives in the future, a stopgap number is needed through imports.
First we should try to integrate something similar to CBU 105 or 97
for destroying SAMs like HQ 9 and destroying forward columns of Tanks during war. We can’t rely on Jaguars only during wars.
For ALCM we can use Kh-55 and it’s variants or can ask Russians for Kh-101 besides using our own Nirbhay ITCM.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,576
11,326
India
As per PKS it’s still GOST R.
And I assume there is more than just Data Bus compatibility, required for deep integration of various components using feedback data from Radar, EWS and avionics which is encrypted by the OEM precisely to prevent third party access. you can’t change Radar without messing up with other systems, without authorisations/encryption codes by

@Picdelamirand-oli can verify that.

The Astra can only be integrated with MIL-STD-1553B. And it's integrated on the MKI. The same with MICA IR.

Our man is probably talking about more than a decade ago, the Russian supplied jets from 2002. There's no point in MKIsation if we can't customise the jet however we want to.

Uttam is not inducted and operational yet. It still has to face the real life missions on any operational fighter jet. It’s still being tested by LRDE on a LCA testbed, which is different from being operational.

There are no such constraints. You think the Russian AESA option has been through real life missions? If the demand is to use it in combat and then integrate it, then nothing will ever be integrated. This is not a chicken/egg problem. All that either radar has to do is meet IAF's ASR to be considered.

Dunno what's the plan with a new engine. The Russians want India to go for the new engine, I'd also personally like to upgrade to the new engine. But IAF and HAL may fear a new engine without the Russians first buying and operating them in numbers 'cause of previous experience with the AL-31FP.

Anyway, we need to become much more independent of the Russians when it comes to our primary systems, especially the MKI and T-90. Currently we are under the continued risk of blackmail from Russia, and that could go against our interests of large scale indigenisation.

We do have (as per PKS) agreements with Russian OEMs for integration of locally developed weapons. It’s just that Russians are not that keen to help certify them on Russian platforms and insist on using Russian products. And that’s why we have to cut deals with them for cooperation. Like purchasing Russian seekers for Astra or Buying propulsion system for integration of own seekers on Yakhont.
Same is true for Nirbhay.

Certification is done by CEMILAC.

First we should try to integrate something similar to CBU 105 or 97
for destroying SAMs like HQ 9 and destroying forward columns of Tanks during war. We can’t rely on Jaguars only during wars.
For ALCM we can use Kh-55 and it’s variants or can ask Russians for Kh-101 besides using our own Nirbhay ITCM.

CBU-105 is meant for close air support, it won't be used for SEAD/DEAD. Apart from the fact that the Americans won't allow its integration on a Russian jet, due to advances in PGM tech, the CBU-105 is no longer needed, plus it's not in production anymore. Now aircraft can hit moving targets with pinpoint accuracy using PGMs.

For SEAD/DEAD, we need SPICE, SAAW, SANT, Brahmos, SCALP etc, apart from ARMs. Basically anything with SALH, RF or IIR seekers. The Americans plan to use the StormBreaker and the British plan to use the SPEAR family from their F-35s, apart from the HARM. At stand-in ranges, UCAVs are necessary.

As for ALCMs, Western options are politically better. We already have the Brahmos from Russia anyway, and we are gonna add more variants.
 

AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
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The Astra can only be integrated with MIL-STD-1553B. And it's integrated on the MKI. The same with MICA IR.

Our man is probably talking about more than a decade ago, the Russian supplied jets from 2002. There's no point in MKIsation if we can't customise the jet however we want to.
Maybe so. I’m not sure. But he said it last week in his blog.
He also said that ASRAAM too are integrated but all these don’t have proper access radar data but more or less our own jugaad with some help of Israel (in case of Derby and spice ).
There are no such constraints. You think the Russian AESA option has been through real life missions? If the demand is to use it in combat and then integrate it, then nothing will ever be integrated. This is not a chicken/egg problem. All that either radar has to do is meet IAF's ASR to be considered.
Agreed.
Dunno what's the plan with a new engine. The Russians want India to go for the new engine, I'd also personally like to upgrade to the new engine. But IAF and HAL may fear a new engine without the Russians first buying and operating them in numbers 'cause of previous experience with the AL-31FP.
If RuAF are choosing AL-41 over existing AL-31, there must be good reason for spending that much
Anyway, we need to become much more independent of the Russians when it comes to our primary systems, especially the MKI and T-90. Currently we are under the continued risk of blackmail from Russia, and that could go against our interests of large scale indigenisation.
Absolutely. Considering closeness of Putin with Xi Xinping and economical over dependence of Russia on China.
And for that we can use few MKIs as test-bed for our own avionics, subsystems, radars, everything, even at the risk of total weight off of these airframes, like what Chinese did.
Do we need Russian permission/help for
At some point of time, we will have to design our own Heavyweight Fighter jet to replace Su 30/57 etc.
Certification is done by CEMILAC.
Any modifications on Russian aircraft needs OEM certification too. Like we needed certification for integration of own SPJ on Mig 29 which Mig stalled and asked to use those already certified. Same is true for MAWS integration on Mi-17.
CBU-105 is meant for close air support, it won't be used for SEAD/DEAD. Apart from the fact that the Americans won't allow its integration on a Russian jet, due to advances in PGM tech, the CBU-105 is no longer needed, plus it's not in production anymore. Now aircraft can hit moving targets with pinpoint accuracy using PGMs.

For SEAD/DEAD, we need SPICE, SAAW, SANT, Brahmos, SCALP etc, apart from ARMs. Basically anything with SALH, RF or IIR seekers. The Americans plan to use the StormBreaker and the British plan to use the SPEAR family from their F-35s, apart from the HARM. At stand-in ranges, UCAVs are necessary.

As for ALCMs, Western options are politically better. We already have the Brahmos from Russia anyway, and we are gonna add more variants.
I thought sensor fused munitions are better for covering large areas.
Anyway we have many options as you said. BTW do we have anything analogous to Spice/hammer kits which I believe are EOS/GPS guided and jet propelled kits for long range.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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Maybe so. I’m not sure. But he said it last week in his blog.
He also said that ASRAAM too are integrated but all these don’t have proper access radar data but more or less our own jugaad with some help of Israel (in case of Derby and spice ).

He can make whatever claims he wants to, he fakes too much. You can't integrate anything without the appropriate bus installed. This includes Astra, and even the Brahmos.

Another challenge was to ensure the BrahMos separates cleanly from the aircraft when fired, with the signal going from the cockpit, through the Sukhoi-30’s 1553 data bus, to all 12 mounting stations.

If RuAF are choosing AL-41 over existing AL-31, there must be good reason for spending that much

Since they own the engine, an upgrade and commonality with Su-35 is an obvious option for them. Even the MKI will definitely benefit from the upgrade. But it depends if the IAF is willing to spend that more money and take more risk. Our T-90s are also using the old gun and autoloader while the Russians are upgrading to a new gun and autoloader, but we haven't yet opted for it either. Getting upgrades from Russia isn't easy, especially for India, since we like to use our own electronics linked to the Russian systems. Replacing it will mean more R&D effort.

Any modifications on Russian aircraft needs OEM certification too. Like we needed certification for integration of own SPJ on Mig 29 which Mig stalled and asked to use those already certified. Same is true for MAWS integration on Mi-17.

Mig-29 isn't produced in India, so Russian assistance is necessary. We don't produce the Mi-17 either. But the MKI is produced in India. Jaguar upgrade doesn't require British or French help.

I thought sensor fused munitions are better for covering large areas.
Anyway we have many options as you said. BTW do we have anything analogous to Spice/hammer kits which I believe are EOS/GPS guided and jet propelled kits for long range.

In the CBU-105, there are 40 skeets, and each skeet has two sensors, laser and IR. When the skeet is released, it finds the target on its own. Since the laser and IR work together, it's "fused". That's "sensor-fused". Swarm drones are now a much better option.

We are working on 100-150Km long range PGMs in three phases.

1st phase = SAAW (120Kg). Completed.
It's winged and does not have any seeker. Uses satellite guidance to find targets. Western equivalent = SDB I (120Kg).

2nd phase = Gaurav (1000Kg) and Mk2 version of SAAW. Under testing. These will have different types of seekers. Particularly SALH and IIR. Maybe RF, but dunno about this. Last month the IAF tested a 100Km SALH version of the 1000Kg bomb called Long Range Glide Bomb. Western equivalents = SDB II StormBreaker (120Kg), SPICE (60Km for the big ones and 100Km for the smallest one).

3rd phase = Stick a rocket motor on them which increases range up to 150Km. Western equivalents = Hammer (four weight options, 60Km), SPEAR 3 (100Kg, 130Km), SPICE 250 (120Kg, 150Km).

There could be a 500Kg version of Gaurav as well. SAAW will likely come in many more types.

Post phase 3, all these bombs can even be upgraded with swarm capability.

Many other countries are working on such bombs too.
 

Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Yes. It’s substantial if we look holistically. But the poster was proposing J11 type of indigenisation, which IMO is not possible under current set up.
BTW how an AESA radar (Uttam mk 2 as mentioned in some reports) which is based on western mil std will talk to a plane with Russian avionics having Russian GOST data bus. Or we planning to rewrite the whole avionics suite for MKI ? Which is next to impossible imo.


Some Indian private company [Tonbo ?] is involved I believe. So it’s good news.


What kind of EWS (internal I assume) are they going to use ? Is it a distributed antenna system (DAS) ?
Podded SPJs are convenient and provides mission flexibility. So no


Uttam should be fitted in LCA without waiting for GAN or Vivaldi TRM development. We need to tailor its backend processing which will need a lot of operational data and time. Upscaling it by adding few TRMs, increasing cooling power or by using GAN modules will not be that big of headache.



All three are Heat seeking/IR/EO homing WVRAAMs with no communication with the Radar of the jet.
Even those Spice and Popeye use separate modules to function.

Nirbhay/ITCM will be enough for MKI as we already have SCALP on Rafale for the time being till we have our own longer range alternative.
I hadn't realised so much Indian tech went into the SU-30MKI. It's providing a solid base for future projects.
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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He can make whatever claims he wants to, he fakes too much. You can't integrate anything without the appropriate bus installed. This includes Astra, and even the Brahmos.

Another challenge was to ensure the BrahMos separates cleanly from the aircraft when fired, with the signal going from the cockpit, through the Sukhoi-30’s 1553 data bus, to all 12 mounting stations.



Since they own the engine, an upgrade and commonality with Su-35 is an obvious option for them. Even the MKI will definitely benefit from the upgrade. But it depends if the IAF is willing to spend that more money and take more risk. Our T-90s are also using the old gun and autoloader while the Russians are upgrading to a new gun and autoloader, but we haven't yet opted for it either. Getting upgrades from Russia isn't easy, especially for India, since we like to use our own electronics linked to the Russian systems. Replacing it will mean more R&D effort.



Mig-29 isn't produced in India, so Russian assistance is necessary. We don't produce the Mi-17 either. But the MKI is produced in India. Jaguar upgrade doesn't require British or French help.



In the CBU-105, there are 40 skeets, and each skeet has two sensors, laser and IR. When the skeet is released, it finds the target on its own. Since the laser and IR work together, it's "fused". That's "sensor-fused". Swarm drones are now a much better option.

We are working on 100-150Km long range PGMs in three phases.

1st phase = SAAW (120Kg). Completed.
It's winged and does not have any seeker. Uses satellite guidance to find targets. Western equivalent = SDB I (120Kg).

2nd phase = Gaurav (1000Kg) and Mk2 version of SAAW. Under testing. These will have different types of seekers. Particularly SALH and IIR. Maybe RF, but dunno about this. Last month the IAF tested a 100Km SALH version of the 1000Kg bomb called Long Range Glide Bomb. Western equivalents = SDB II StormBreaker (120Kg), SPICE (60Km for the big ones and 100Km for the smallest one).

3rd phase = Stick a rocket motor on them which increases range up to 150Km. Western equivalents = Hammer (four weight options, 60Km), SPEAR 3 (100Kg, 130Km), SPICE 250 (120Kg, 150Km).

There could be a 500Kg version of Gaurav as well. SAAW will likely come in many more types.

Post phase 3, all these bombs can even be upgraded with swarm capability.

Many other countries are working on such bombs too.

He can make whatever claims he wants to, he fakes too much. You can't integrate anything without the appropriate bus installed. This includes Astra, and even the Brahmos.

Another challenge was to ensure the BrahMos separates cleanly from the aircraft when fired, with the signal going from the cockpit, through the Sukhoi-30’s 1553 data bus, to all 12 mounting stations.



Since they own the engine, an upgrade and commonality with Su-35 is an obvious option for them. Even the MKI will definitely benefit from the upgrade. But it depends if the IAF is willing to spend that more money and take more risk. Our T-90s are also using the old gun and autoloader while the Russians are upgrading to a new gun and autoloader, but we haven't yet opted for it either. Getting upgrades from Russia isn't easy, especially for India, since we like to use our own electronics linked to the Russian systems. Replacing it will mean more R&D effort.



Mig-29 isn't produced in India, so Russian assistance is necessary. We don't produce the Mi-17 either. But the MKI is produced in India. Jaguar upgrade doesn't require British or French help.



In the CBU-105, there are 40 skeets, and each skeet has two sensors, laser and IR. When the skeet is released, it finds the target on its own. Since the laser and IR work together, it's "fused". That's "sensor-fused". Swarm drones are now a much better option.

We are working on 100-150Km long range PGMs in three phases.

1st phase = SAAW (120Kg). Completed.
It's winged and does not have any seeker. Uses satellite guidance to find targets. Western equivalent = SDB I (120Kg).

2nd phase = Gaurav (1000Kg) and Mk2 version of SAAW. Under testing. These will have different types of seekers. Particularly SALH and IIR. Maybe RF, but dunno about this. Last month the IAF tested a 100Km SALH version of the 1000Kg bomb called Long Range Glide Bomb. Western equivalents = SDB II StormBreaker (120Kg), SPICE (60Km for the big ones and 100Km for the smallest one).

3rd phase = Stick a rocket motor on them which increases range up to 150Km. Western equivalents = Hammer (four weight options, 60Km), SPEAR 3 (100Kg, 130Km), SPICE 250 (120Kg, 150Km).

There could be a 500Kg version of Gaurav as well. SAAW will likely come in many more types.

Post phase 3, all these bombs can even be upgraded with swarm capability.

Many other countries are working on such bombs too.

It looks like we will be well Stocked in terms of Air to Ground Munitions

Now the question remains , how will you " Drop " them , given the lack of platforms 😜
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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It looks like we will be well Stocked in terms of Air to Ground Munitions

Now the question remains , how will you " Drop " them , given the lack of platforms 😜

Compared to before, our current platforms can carry more. Our overall carry weight with 30 squadrons is greater than it used to be with 42 squadrons. I mean, most of our fleet were Mig-21s and Mig-27s then.
 
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lcafanboy

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Dec 22, 2017
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Is it certified on Su 30 ? (SM/MKI/MKM)
It's certified on Su-35 which is a derivative of su30mki. So there should be no problem in integrating it on su30mki too. Also by all means these 12 will be coming with S117 engines too with 144kn Power. Or may I say a template of super Sukhoi...