Sukhoi Su-30MKI

Dec 4, 2017
238
411
France
Indian Air Force Su-30MKI Deploy to Hasimara
January 8, 2018

By Bellingcat Investigation Team


Commercial imagery from December 2017

Due to ongoing tensions with China, the Indian Air Force has deployed a flight of at least four Su-30MKI Flanker multi-role fighter to Hasimara, the nearest Indian airbase to the recent Doklam standoff. Commercial imagery first captured the aircraft in October but it’s possible they may have arrived earlier. Imagery in August 2017 shows that workers covered the alert revetments on both ends of the runway preventing EO observation. Given regional basing, the aircraft likely arrived from neighboring Tezpur where a full squadron is reportedly deployed.

The advanced fighters join the IAF’s MIG-27ML/UPG at the strategic location. The ground attack aircraft are reportedly operated by No 22 Squadron. The overall number of MIG-27ML/UPG operated from the airbase recently decreased in 2016 when the previously co-located No 18 Squadron was decommissioned. The older non-operational airframes remain parked south of the runway. Domestic news in December reported that 22 Squadron would also be decommissioned. However, the swing-wing aircraft could still be viewed on the main parking apron and in nearby revetments in January.

Short on aircraft, Hasimara is expected to receive new deployments with discussions in the Indian press suggesting one of India’s Dassault Rafale squadrons. Unfortunately, the first batch of the French-built aircraft is not expected to arrive until 2019. Until the Rafale are inducted, the SU-30MKIrotations will likely continue in order to help close the gap of operational assets at the airbase. Imagery captured the Flanker still parked on the apron in December 2017.

In the meantime, imagery continues to show a heavy People’s Liberation Army (PLA) ground presence east of the Doka La border crossing and in areas that could reinforce troops in the disputed Bhutanese territory. Beyond ground forces, China also continues to maintain larger numbers of fighter aircraft at regional airbases near the standoff and has improved infrastructure at key airbases.

Bottom Line: The Su-30MKI rotations will likely remain a stop-gap until the border airbase is re-equipped with new aircraft.

This post originally appeared at Offiziere.ch

Indian Air Force Su-30MKI Deploy to Hasimara - bellingcat
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,792
7,831
Bangalore
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
4,792
7,831
Bangalore
Activation of Civil Airfield: Dehradun


As a routine exercise of activating civil airfield by the IAF, a detachment of two Su-30 MKI aircraft would operate from Jolly Grant Airport in Dehradun.

The detachment would operate from the airfield for two days from 19 Feb 2018, for area familiarisation before returning to their parent base.

Press Information Bureau
 

Shashank

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
858
949
Ban galore
EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India’s most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It’s an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India on a global map for equipment that no country will sell to India without unacceptable conditions. And it is here, at the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) that the Indian Air Force’s most formidable jet, the Su-30MKI is being given sharper teeth than it has ever had before.

The Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), the mother body of the DARE, has a rough time dealing with a reputation for waste and delays. To be sure, most criticism it faces is justified. Which is perhaps why it’s always heartening to hear about success. Scientists quietly working behind the scenes on small projects that are truly contributing to the lofty ideal of self-reliance. The story your correspondent reports on today isn’t doing just that — it’s also set to save the Indian Air Force precious capital going into the future.

It all begins with the Russian SAP-518 jammer pod that Moscow supplied with the Su-30MKI. After grappling for years with the pod, the Indian Air Force finally in 2015 realised it simply couldn’t use them for two reasons. One, they were heavy — and when slung onto wingtip hardpoints, they cut into flying envelope like a butcher’s knife.

‘With the Russian pods, the Sukhoi is basically a transport aircraft,’ one of the scientists says.

The second issue is even worse. The IAF realised the SAP-518 pod hadn’t been properly interfacing with the indigenous on-board radar warning receiver (RWR), therefore killing pilots’ chances to exploit both systems fully. While the reasons why the IAF took their time remains unclear (but at one level understandable), DARE stepped in immediately, offering to help. The result is the pod you see those three scientists standing next to in the photograph above.

DARE’s High Band Jammer (HBJ) pod begins dummy carriage trials in six months on an IAF Su-30MKI, with full integration within the year. By 2019, DARE has committed to seeing the pod become fully operational with the IAF’s Flanker fleet.

Significantly, the HBJ pod will be a fully indigenous one. A DARE scientist explains that the HBJ pod currently has th
ree major systems: the integrated EW suite, the active array phased transmit-receive unit and the cooling system. While the first two have been rapidly developed in-house, the complex cooling system is in process, with DARE sourcing an Israeli system for the moment. The team says they’ll have a fully functional Indian cooling system on the HBJ pod before full integration trials by the end of the year.

Better still, the HBJ pod, the scientists tell Livefist, will spawn a family of EW sensors and systems for platforms like the LCA Tejas, MiG-29 and any other fighter the IAF chooses to operate.

The Indian Air Force, which has embraced the wares from DARE more than equipmentfrom most other DRDO labs is expectedly thrilled. An IAF Su-30MKI pilot at the show confirmed that the HBJ pod was a ‘very promising system’ and that ‘more than anything, it is our own in-house development, so I don’t have to run to the Russians if something doesn’t work’.

A DARE scientist associated with the project tells a familiar story: Russia’s unwillingness to share codes (or its insistence on an additional commercial understanding) that could have helped manage the interfacing issues between the SAP-518 pod and Indian RWR better and faster.

Incidentally, the indigenous DARE RWR on the IAF’s Su-30MKIs will also be
replaced soon. The lab is in final testing of an all digital RWR (the existing system is analog) christened ‘Dhruti’ that will begin ground testing in May this year, followed by a phased installation across the fleet.

DARE is one of the DRDO’s most low-profile laboratories and also one of its most successful. Its systems populate virtually every combat aircraft currently in service, including missile approach warning systems, mission computers and avionics of every kind.

A final little flourish from the unassuming DARE stand at Aero India is the SIVA pod, a development from the nineties that didn’t quite work out and was quietly abandoned. Recently, scientists dusted out from the corner of a DARE warehouse when a team of scientists suddenly realised they could help the people at BrahMos save a penny on testing the airborne seeker on the BrahMos-A.

View image on Twitter


Twitter Ads info and privacy

With the new DRDL-led imaging and monopulse RF seeker (IMR, for a future variant of the BrahMos) fitted into the Siva pod in a matter of days (the DRDL had tendered out for the integration process), the pod was quickly slung onto a Su-30MKI and sent up for the required airborne tests. It was an immediate success, with BrahMos Corp. sending a special word of thanks to the DARE team. Without that flash of brilliance from DARE, BrahMos would have had to hot-step it to Russia or elsewhere to get a testbed. And the Siva pod would have forever remained a failed relic from DARE’s early days. Instead it is now a valuable, cheap test-bed for high-performance systems.

‘Now we have a very capable in-house testbed capable of testing a variety of electronics and systems in the airborne regime. This is the beginning of a testbed capability that is normally very expensive to hire. It will be finetuned and evolved before being offered as a full-fledged service, perhaps even to foreign customers,’ says a DRDO officer.




https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/how-a-secretive-drdo-lab-is-saving-the-iaf-su-30mki.html
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,473
2,895
73
France
transition.wifeo.com
I propose Mirage F1 :LOL:

The second American life of the Mirage F1 is preparing for Châteaudun

The American company ATAC suddenly bought 63 former Air Force Mirage F1s to make plastrons, capable of training the most modern fighters of the US Air Force. In Châteaudun, the aircraft storage base, it's a stirring battle to dismantle the Mirages and send them by truck to Belgium, where some will be revised before their departure to the United States. Report…


Air entrances and wing roots are covered for the long road trip to Belgium. Note at the rear of the fuselage the pivot of the depth, carefully packaged ... As on all other aircraft, the seat is absent from the cockpit. © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr

Despite the delays brought by the waltz of the defense ministers this summer (passage of Jean-Yves Le Drian to Sylvie Goulard then to Florence Parly), the negotiations between the company ATAC and France (Air Force, Ministry of the Armed Forces and DGA), went very fast. " We started the discussions in March, the agreement was signed on August 7 and at the end of December all Mirage F1 will have left Châteaudun " summarizes Pierre Duval who represents ATAC in France under this contract. " The high hierarchy of the Air Force has pushed hard for the case to be made and the French state has also shown a rapid action that surprised everyone, especially in the United States. United ... »

63 Mirage F1 and 157 engines Atar 9K50
ATAC acquires 63 aircraft, 157 Atar 9K50 engines and more than 6 million items representing 10,000m3 of various parts, tools and other test benches (including 84 Cyrano IV radars, 72 1200 and 2200 liter drop tanks). ). Of course, all the equipment purchased is not good flying or in working order.

The purchase of 63 Mirage F1 by the ATAC company gives a supplement of life of at least ten years to the hunter of Dassault. The plane will still be in service sixty years after its first flight ... © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr
For aircraft, 32 are at RDS1 and 31 at RDS2. The Air Force distinguishes three levels of RDS (withdrawal of service): the RDS1 is for aircraft that can quickly resume flights, RDS2 are cannibalisable or can eventually be restarted at the end of a building site and RDS3 are only good for scrap ...

Mirage F1 to rebuild
Among the 32 RDS1s, there are six F1B, 16 Mirage F1CT and 10 Mirage F1CR. Since ATAC's goal is to have about forty operational aircraft, it will also be necessary to rebuild eight aircraft now stamped RDS2. As for the remaining RDS2, once cleared of all the parts that can be useful to the rest of the fleet, they will be destroyed in Europe and will never see the new world ...

An F1CT Mirage lacking its front tip and radar. The question of the radar remains unanswered at the moment: ATAC should launch a tender to equip its Mirage with a new generation equipment, why not an active antenna. © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr
Until the end of November, Châteaudun is therefore the epicenter of this move: the planes leave their storage sheds, go through the GERSA (Maintenance Repair and Storage Group) where they are demilitarized and then they are transferred to hangar where the dismantling team of Sofema works. A dozen mechanics are working on the chain to dismantle the wings, drifts, empennages and reactors, and prepare the whole to the road transport to Belgium.

Dismantling at the chain
To date, about 40 aircraft have already been prepared, including all RDS1. " Twice a week, we take out two fuselages prepared and we install on the trailers explains Franck Larue, the local representative of SOFEMA who heads the disassembly team. For four planes, we also have a fifth trailer that carries the sails, the depths and the drifts .

The dismantling of a fighter plane is a mechanic who ultimately requires very little manpower. The mechanics work in teams of three on each plane. © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr
The planes are sent to SABCA which has, by the way, the experience of the modernization of Moroccan Mirage F1C ... The Belgian company is responsible for the initial revision of the first 32 aircraft. The following will be revised directly in the United States, with ATAC wishing to put their hands in the grease to acquire their own technical know-how.

Skills transfer
This is one of the few certainties that we can have about the program. Because many questions, and most exciting, remain to this day in suspense ... Who will train the American mechanics? The South African company Paramount, which has a good experience of the plane, is well placed to train the " first trainers ". But then ?

ATAC buys no less than 157 ATAR 9K50 reactors with aircraft. All will not be flying ... © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr
Another essential question, what avionics will be given to planes? One thing seems certain: the devices will receive a suite (radio, GPS, transponder, TCAS ...) from trade, available on shelf and cheap. But ATAC also wants to equip the Mirage with a modern and high-performance radar that could be electronic scanning and active antenna (AESA).

Upgrading
The difficulties of integrating such a radar into the Mirage's cell and systems may, however, make it a longer and more costly project than ATAC wants. Several American, Israeli or European industrialists are potentially on the line. But before these future radars are available, it will do with the current Cyrano IV. Their restarting will probably also require the intervention of an industrialist.

The F1CR Mirage were the last retired aircraft in France in June 2014, two years after the F1CT Mirage. ATAC acquires not only a huge stock of spare parts, but also very well maintained aircraft ... © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr
Ditto for engines, about thirty of the 157 are only good for scrap. But what about others? Who will take care of their restart? These questions, and a few dozen others, occupy the days and nights of Pierre Duval and his interlocutors. Against the backdrop of the clock ticking: planes must not only have left Châteaudun at the end of the month, but the top ten must also make their first operational missions in September 2018. This means that the first scheduled flights point and training will have to start in April or May of next year.

US drivers for Mirage F1
The initial training of the first ATAC instructor pilots will be in South Africa with the help of Paramount, again. The South African company now has six CZ single-seaters and four two-seater, acquired just recently. Perhaps former French pilots will be required to provide more advanced training in air-to-air missions or radar work.

The planes, stripped of their wings and drifts, are sent to Belgium on trucks. Four planes leave Chateaudun each week. © Frédéric Lert / Aerobuzz.fr
But the French must not be fooled by dreaming of an American career: eventually, planes will operate from the US Air Force's operational bases against the most modern aircraft in the US arsenal. It is certain that they will be piloted by Americans ...

80,000 flying hours in sight for F1
Finally, let's not forget that the business of the " Red Air " that opens in the United States is colossal: the US Air Force has a need of about 40,000 flight hours per year. This is roughly the equivalent of the activity " hunting " of the Air Force!

This volume of hours will therefore be entrusted to several service companies and an entire ecosystem is now being set up. With about 40 Mirage lines online, ATAC will be able to provide approximately 8,000 flight hours per year. That's 80,000 hours over ten years. A business that can be estimated with a ladle to nearly a billion dollars!

Frédéric Lert

Google Translate
 

Guynextdoor

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
3,867
1,035
India
What are your current options? - MKI, LCA1P, Rafale, LWF.
MKI has almost 6 times the range of a LCA, 3 times the payload, twice the hardpoints, 1.6 times the speed, and more ordinance commonality with the rest of the platforms, and twice as capable radar. This 4 times jibe, is for LCA because both are same Generation aircraft. Not with SU57 or AMCA because there is a generational gap there. In the current comparison with all the platforms in the IAF's arsenal with confirmed book order including the speculated LWF, MKI can hold it's ground against all the platforms.

You bring up AL41, what makes you think AL41 is any more reliable than AL31FN? Can Al31's performance be better, sure I would love that, would that increase price of the aircraft - definately yes.

Adding more MKI will give you a bigger squadron strength, also during its mid life upgrade you will get better bang for your buck.

yes but MKI pushes up the Opex
 

screambowl

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
2,465
1,143
switzerland
Actually twin engine are more reliable than Single engine

Operational cost is high, you would need extra fuel dumps for them. And service time is also longer.
Where as single engines are cheaper to operate. More over you need to fill in the gap. Lighter higher than LCA and lower than MKI.
Yes, you can debate on Mk2 capabilities after installing f414IN would it be able to satisfy what IAF wants and overall compete the Gripen E?
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
idk, the price of the mki is pretty misleading.

yeah it's 57million a pop compared to say 100mil of a rafale, but the MKI upgrade to bring it up to date with a lot of the rafale systems such as AESA radar, avionics and RCS reduction is a rough guess of 8billion for 272 aircraft=30million. And let's be honest, that's a pretty generous guess if you look at the recent costs of upgrades for planes like the F-16. SU-30MKI's probably have to go through structural change to get the RCS reduction India wants.

I don't think more MKI's is anything than a small band aid for the squadron shortage.
MKIs are made in India and India can make all of them without having to waste foreign exchange. Radar, avionics are all changeable by India. India has made its own avionics and UTTAM radar can be fitted 1-2 years later as t gets ready.

The cost of upgrade is irrelevant if it is in rupees. Foreign exchange and imports are the main concern. Domestic spending only creates GDP growth for India and improves the defence industry.

What I would agree is
That upgrading Su-30 MKI with latest avionics will put it on par with most top of the line planes in the world,.
What I do not agree with is ordering more Su-30 MKI. Most experts find AL-31 not so reliable, so, first need to upgrade with AL-41 engine.
Also when China has 5th Gen planes would we feel comfortable facing them with "semi 5th Gen" planes? If we face China with 320+ Su-30 MKI there is good chance the fight may be prolonged and also that China would win due to attrition as china has big numbers and Super Sukhoi might be able to push it on our favour or break even at the most. But with Su-57 we have much better position based on attrition. Never enter a war which you cannot win. Always enter a war in which you have an unfair advantage.

With your point ". At twice the cost of LCA, gives you almost 4 times the capability of an LCA. also qualified for pretty much every possible ordinance in the inventory" can you give me such a ratio for say Su-57 vs LCA or Su-57 vs Su-30 MKI ? it will be theoretical analysis but at present I would take that too for sake of debate.

Thus my take might be
Go for few squadrons of Su-57 (right version we need)
Upgrade Su-30 MKI with latest cutting edge avionics and arm them with Indian missiles and develop further.
Use Tejas to make up numbers specially to protect industrial bases

All future planes like say Tejas Mk2 and AMCA etc, please make them twin engine because I might favour spending more on operating cost of twin engine, rather than lose the plane altogether due to engine failure of single engine

The most important aspect of Su30 MKI is that Russia has given 100% ToT for manufacturing including engine. Accessories like radars are not given as ToT. India already has made UTTAM AESA radar and will be ready after flight trials in 1-2 years. So, that radar can be easily fitted into Su30 MKI. Entire source code is also transferred to India which makes it possible for India to integrate whatever addendum India wants to.

Al31FP is made 100% in India from raw material stage. So, the question of faulty engine is not even a problem. India can make as many engines as it wants. Also, the design of Al31FP is not faulty. It has lower TWR compared to AL41 which has higher thrust for same weight but comparison is like comparing F404 with F414. You don't call F404 as faulty just because F414 delivers higher thrust at same size.

Given this, India can simply make large number of MKIs and the attrition can be taken care of. Also, please don't assume that any war which involves such serious damage of aircrafts will not have missile involvement. So, let us keep war with China aside. The real war is with Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and other Islamic countries. China-Tibet issue has been resolved with Dalai Lama giving statement that Tibet does not want freedom but autonomy and assistance from China.

Next, the single engine planes have advantages in terms of ease of manufacturing and easy replacement during war. The fuel and operational cost are not the only concern here but also the cost of making new planes at fast rate during war. Also, Indian priority is the neighbourhood where Pakistan has depth of 600km and Bangladesh has minimal depth both of which does not require large planes beyond certain limits.

To protect industries from enemy aicrafts or missiles, the best option is SAM and BMD, not our aircraft. SAMs are the biggest assets in defending home assets from enemy aircrafts.

I'm not surprised Sputnik would publish an interview with someone saying the solution is to buy more Russian aircraft.
Su30 MKI is made in India. Russia has been very generous in giving full ToT including the engines Al31FP (Al31F with thrust vectoring) and source codes.

Agreed but the operational costs aspect rather excludes any Russian product and the MKI especially, the ammount of downtime and spares the MKIs SQNs go through is truly horrendous and the sad reality is that latest block MKIs (especially with Brahmos-A capability) aren't even that much cheaper than a current spec Rafale to buy off the shelf but with 2-3x higher operational costs.

That said, IAF will have no choice but to go for more MKIs in the near future for 2 reasons; FGFA isn't coming ANY time soon so the Nasik MKI line will have to be kept open hence more MKIs will be ordered and the fighter mess the IAF is in isn't going to be adressed anytime soon and the IAF really cannot afford to drop to <30 SQNs (which they will at the current stand down rate by 2025).

Remember the MKI requires 2x the pilots and costs 2-3x per flight hour to a Rafale or LCA, all fears that were articulated previously about the IAF becoming a "top heavy" AF were entirely founded and will become a reality soon.

MKI goes through large downtime only due to mismanagement and fund cuts from government. Otherwise, when it is fully made in India, I don't see a reason for it to be any worse than planes which needs imported spare parts. It has 2 pilots but that also increases efficiency of targeting. The cost per flight hour is mostly fuel. That is a concern but is still manageable. Fighters are more designed towards fighting than for peacetime sorty. As long as the cost of operation is good for war, the plane is good. Spending for spare parts from Indian manufacturers is better than spending in foreign exchange for other aircrafts.

As i pointed out earlier, the CPFH will be considerably lower once it enters IAF service. Optimistic analysis puts the number between 8,000 and 9,000 USD.

Once MII starts and production begins in India, value will drop further.

Meanwhile govt has also taken steps to bring down the costs of MKI spares by signing a deal with russia for setting up a larger spares inventory and reducing the delays for its procurement. This will reduce its CPFH close to 10,000 USD.

That's a completely different issue. The Russians have now realized that they won't be getting any order big ticket item on a silver platter like before. So they're trying to squeeze the maximum out of whatever they've already sold to us.
With the opening up of western suppliers, we've been modernizing the soviet-era weaponry with alternative sub-systems, and the Russians are loosing a lot of money over that as their main source of income is not actually the initial capital paid for the purchase of the system, but rather for spares and maintenance cover of the said system. That's why most of the Soviet/Russian systems have such low availability as they force us to buy spares directly from Russia as they refused to share ToT with us.

Now, as far as the Su-30MKIs are considered, steps have been taken to address the spares/availability issue.

India and Russia on Friday signed two long-term support agreements for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft fleet, which is the mainstay of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The pacts provides for an upgraded schedule for delivery of spares from Russia for these jets, local manufacturing of parts and a proposed logistics hub for the fighter jets in Bengaluru by HAL.

India, Russia sign long-term support pact on Sukhoi Su-30MKI

Su30 has higher operational costs mainly due to higher fuel consumption. The maximum thrust of Su30 is 250kN whereas Rafale has 150kN. Even the empty and maximum weight of Su30 is pretty high. Su30 is a hevay plane and it is expected to be fuel guzzler.

As I have mentioned earlier, Russians were extremely generous in giving ToT or making Su30 completely in India including engines. They are not trying to squeeze anything out. I would be really grateful for Russians giving Su30 away in desperate times. I have not seen any other country being so generous.

I would not accuse that Russians force buying of spares from Russia. If India can make the planes, it can also make the spares. Except for Radars and few replaceable subsystems, I am unsure of why this spare parts drama is being done. I feel that paid news lobby may be there to spread negativity about Russian planes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironhide
Dec 4, 2017
238
411
France
Su30 has higher operational costs mainly due to higher fuel consumption. The maximum thrust of Su30 is 250kN whereas Rafale has 150kN. Even the empty and maximum weight of Su30 is pretty high. Su30 is a hevay plane and it is expected to be fuel guzzler.

As I have mentioned earlier, Russians were extremely generous in giving ToT or making Su30 completely in India including engines. They are not trying to squeeze anything out. I would be really grateful for Russians giving Su30 away in desperate times. I have not seen any other country being so generous.

I would not accuse that Russians force buying of spares from Russia. If India can make the planes, it can also make the spares. Except for Radars and few replaceable subsystems, I am unsure of why this spare parts drama is being done. I feel that paid news lobby may be there to spread negativity about Russian planes.

Fuel along with other oils, is only one part of the operational cost calculations, which is around 15% of the total. The majority of the cost comes from spares (30%) and personnel (23%) [for western jets as accurate figures for IAF are unnavailable]

TOT doesn't mean we have the independence to manufacture anything we want in any numbers. All manufacturing is controlled by agreements that are signed with UAC. For each additional production, SOPs are to be followed, including agreement from Russia as well as payment. Rights to most of the high-value spares have been retained by Russia and that is the reason why the cost of spares procured from UAC is too high. The lead time in ordering those spares is anywhere between 12-18 months (causing fleet availability issues) but has been solved by signing the PBL agreement last year bringing down the time to 30 days,

From 2014
Meanwhile, the current arrangement continues, with the IAF vastly underspending on spares (INR 500 million per year, vs. INR 34.5 billion at a standard 5%/year rate), and spares worth INR 4 billion stockpiled by HAL at Nashik. Even if the IAF doesn’t adopt PBL, HAL would like to see 5 years worth of spares stockpiled. Most of the spares must still come from Russia, and surge capability is very poor.

Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability'
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aditya

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,670
8,917
India

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
Fuel along with other oils, is only one part of the operational cost calculations, which is around 15% of the total. The majority of the cost comes from spares (30%) and personnel (23%) [for western jets as accurate figures for IAF are unnavailable]

TOT doesn't mean we have the independence to manufacture anything we want in any numbers. All manufacturing is controlled by agreements that are signed with UAC. For each additional production, SOPs are to be followed, including agreement from Russia as well as payment. Rights to most of the high-value spares have been retained by Russia and that is the reason why the cost of spares procured from UAC is too high. The lead time in ordering those spares is anywhere between 12-18 months (causing fleet availability issues) but has been solved by signing the PBL agreement last year bringing down the time to 30 days,

From 2014
Meanwhile, the current arrangement continues, with the IAF vastly underspending on spares (INR 500 million per year, vs. INR 34.5 billion at a standard 5%/year rate), and spares worth INR 4 billion stockpiled by HAL at Nashik. Even if the IAF doesn’t adopt PBL, HAL would like to see 5 years worth of spares stockpiled. Most of the spares must still come from Russia, and surge capability is very poor.

Govt takes note of Su-30MKI's poor 'serviceability'
Here is the full article:
Even before an Indian Air Force(IAF) Sukhoi-30MKIcrashed on October 14, near Lohegaon Air Baseoutside Pune, concern has been mounting over growing numbers of crashes, incidents involving engine failure, and the worrying fact that, at any given time, barely half the Su-30MKI fleet is available for combat missions.According to ministry of defence(MoD) figures accessed by Business Standard, the serviceability rate of the Su-30MKI was just 48 per cent till last year. The remaining fighters were undergoing repair or maintenance.Today, availability has risen slightly to 55 per cent, far lower than advanced western air forces, which generate 80-85 per cent availability rates. In terms of aircraft numbers, only 106 of the 193 Su-30MKIs that the IAF flies today would be available in war. The remaining 87 fighters, each worth Rs 358 crore at current prices, would remain on the ground."That's more than Rs 30,000 crore just sitting there in hangars," notes a senior MoD official.Last month, The defence ministry held two high-level meetings to find solutions to this problem. According to figures presented in those meeting (a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing "first line" and "second line" maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF's responsibility; (b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and (c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs - the technical terms is: "aircraft on ground". For decades, IAF has accused HAL of poor workmanship and maintenance. At the MoD meeting on Su-30MKI serviceability, HAL turned the tables on the IAF.MoD was informed about serious problems with IAF's management of spares. By standard norms, a fighter fleet consumes five per cent of its worth in consumables and spares each year. By that benchmark the Su-30MKI fleet, currently worth about Rs 69,000 crore - 193 Su-30MKIs at Rs 358 crore a fighter - should consume spares worth Rs 3,450 crore annually.

Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.Without competent inventory management by IAF, and with spares ordered piecemeal when defects arise, Su-30MKI fighters spend weeks on the ground awaiting spares.To ensure that 13-14 per cent of the Su-30MKI fleet is not grounded for want of spares, HAL has stockpiled spares worth Rs 400 crore in Nashik. According to S Subrahmanyan, the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, the inventory is based on a study of consumption patterns of Su-30MKI spares over the preceding five years.HAL says this buffer stock includes spares that are still purchased from Russia, because low consumption volumes make indigenisation non-cost-effective. Even so, non-availability of these spares could ground aircraft. Simultaneously, HAL has proposed to MoD that IAF must order spares required over a five-year period, stocking them at 25 Equipment Depot, IAF's holding depot for spares at Nashik.Separately, HAL has offered the IAF "Performance Based Logistics" (PBL) for the Su-30MKI fleet - a solution common in advanced western air forces. PBL would bind HAL to maintain the Su-30MKI, providing the IAF a specified serviceability rate - calculated in flight hours, or as a percentage of the total aircraft fleet - in exchange for an annual service charge. Besides saving maintenance costs for the IAF, PBL has been found to encourage quality manufacture, since manufacturers know they will be responsible for keeping the aircraft serviceable through its operational life. MoD officials say IAF dislikes PBL model, because outsourcing maintenance to HAL threatens a large maintenance empire built around "base repair depots", manned by IAF personnel. In 2008-09, IAF rejected HAL's proposal for a PBL contract for maintaining the Hawk advanced jet trainer.HAL is confident that it can deliver higher serviceability rates for the Su-30MKI than the current 58 per cent. The company has argued that raising aircraft availability by 20 per cent would make 40 Su-30MKI additionally available to IAF, effectively adding two fighter squadrons to its strike power.The Su-30MKI fleet, which currently numbers 193 fighters - 50 built in Russia and 143 built by HAL, Nashik - will rise to 272 fighters by 2018-19, when HAL delivers the last of the 222 fighters it will build.

It clearly says that HAL purchases spares from Russia for only those which have low volume and hence low economy of scale. I don't think there is a point is getting ToT whereby complete manufacturing is done in India but India is not allowed to manufacture any number it wants.

The highest value spares are in engine as other spares are manufacturable by India. Russia has given ToT for engine for 100% Indian mnaufacture from raw material stage. There is no need for any assembly or import of critical parts.

It may be true that India will have to pay royalty charges to Russia, but the other freedom that India gets in making fully indian jets is immense. India is also allowed to integrate any weapons or subsystems without Russian consent as seen in Brahmos integration or integration of Israeli radars
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ironhide
Dec 4, 2017
238
411
France
It clearly says that HAL purchases spares from Russia for only those which have low volume and hence low economy of scale.

Be it low or high volume, without those spares, the aircraft remains on the ground.

Also, from the same article "Most of the spares must still come from Russia, and surge capability is very poor."

I don't think there is a point is getting ToT whereby complete manufacturing is done in India but India is not allowed to manufacture any number it wants.

I don't think you understand the term 'manufacturing under license'. We can manufacture them in unlimited quantities as long as we pay them for each and every one of them.
And the country of origin always retains control of their product, also makes sure that the customer will have to rely on them to support the product over its entire lifetime.

The highest value spares are in engine as other spares are manufacturable by India. Russia has given ToT for engine for 100% Indian mnaufacture from raw material stage. There is no need for any assembly or import of critical parts.

Instead of rambling on, backup your claims by facts or official statements.
 

Kshithij Sharma

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
756
551
India
Be it low or high volume, without those spares, the aircraft remains on the ground.

Also, from the same article "Most of the spares must still come from Russia, and surge capability is very poor."
This is not in the article you gave. I ha to google your entire paragraph to find another news source: India Ordered, Modernized Su-30MKIs

In this source, they have claimed to have taken the business standard- Ajai Shukla's blog as the main reference but with some distortion
I don't think you understand the term 'manufacturing under license'. We can manufacture them in unlimited quantities as long as we pay them for each and every one of them.
And the country of origin always retains control of their product, also makes sure that the customer will have to rely on them to support the product over its entire lifetime.



Instead of rambling on, backup your claims by facts or official statements.
i fully understand the term "license manufacture". But, you don't seem to understand that manufacturing is 100% as claimed by official sources. HAL and IAF also had said that Al31FP is sully made in India. Even HAL Koraput website says that the engine is made from raw material stages.

So, Russians have no control over Su30 MKI unlike the USA. The relationship is on mutual trust. Also, I am not sure what the terms of license are. It was signed in 2004 or earlier when pricing was very different.

You have been insisting that critical spares are imported despite repeated display of facts that the plane has got full ToT and even the engine is fully Indian made. You don't even have anything to back your statements- either logic or facts. I don't have facts but have logic on my side. So, explain