Shivalik Class (Project 17/17A) & Talwar Class Frigates

[Abingdonboy]

Well we do know that 2 Hulls that are signed and confirmed are for existing unfinished ones at the Russian Shipyard and that the other 2 Hulls to be done at an Indian Shipyard will be signed later - Hopefully, these will have some design changes more suited (Hopefully)

No indication they will be modified for the IN and certainly won't be to the kind of standards the 17As will deliever- MFSTAR and BARAK-8 combo.

I find it rather shameful that the IN is accepting a FRIGATE without their mainstay LRSAM able to fire from it, this indicates this is a purely political deal.


Btw, GRSE laid the keel for their first 17A (yard number 3022) right on schedule, she will be ready for 2023.

I cannot get over the fact that the IN has only ordered 7 of these beasts, the ability to churn out 2 of them PER YEAR is a scale very very few nations on the planet have. India should tap this for at least a decade but as it stands all efforts will cease come 2025, then will the Navy cause another decade of indecsion before ordering their next class of frigates? The general rule of production is never to let capacity go idle, if the capacity is there let them keep churning them out. By 2030 the IN could have 17 P-17A, this is not something to be ignored.

I think the need for the 17As is growing as the destroyer project limps onwards, as it stands 7 P-15A/B by 2022-3, not a very impressive feat and the P-18 is nowhere to be seen. What the IN needs is numbers AND quality, 17A is the answer to their problems until 2030 when hopefully the P-18 and P-19(?) the next-gen frigates ) will be entering service.


Again, the MFSTAR, LRSAM (BARAK-8ER will soon be ready also), Brahmos along with one of the world's most advanced ASW suites is a devestating package.

Forget the 11356!

 

[GuardianRED]

No indication they will be modified for the IN and certainly won't be to the kind of standards the 17As will deliever- MFSTAR and BARAK-8 combo.

I find it rather shameful that the IN is accepting a FRIGATE without their mainstay LRSAM able to fire from it, this indicates this is a purely political deal.


Btw, GRSE laid the keel for their first 17A (yard number 3022) right on schedule, she will be ready for 2023.


View attachment 3590



I cannot get over the fact that the IN has only ordered 7 of these beasts, the ability to churn out 2 of them PER YEAR is a scale very very few nations on the planet have. India should tap this for at least a decade but as it stands all efforts will cease come 2025, then will the Navy cause another decade of indecsion before ordering their next class of frigates? The general rule of production is never to let capacity go idle, if the capacity is there let them keep churning them out. By 2030 the IN could have 17 P-17A, this is not something to be ignored.

I think the need for the 17As is growing as the destroyer project limps onwards, as it stands 7 P-15A/B by 2022-3, not a very impressive feat and the P-18 is nowhere to be seen. What the IN needs is numbers AND quality, 17A is the answer to their problems until 2030 when hopefully the P-18 and P-19(?) the next-gen frigates ) will be entering service.


Again, the MFSTAR, LRSAM (BARAK-8ER will soon be ready also), Brahmos along with one of the world's most advanced ASW suites is a devestating package.

Forget the 11356!

Though I still support the need to built up our numbers and getting these talwar class frigates will genuinely help in this BUT have to agree that we will be getting this hulls more for political reasons than anything else.

Apart from a member mentioning that there is a quota for a number of frigates. Does the IN have a authorize strength?
+
if we are able to increase and plan ahead for the P-19 and soon on - do we have the resources in both support and manpower to man these ships? . I do remember there was a report (not sure how true) that one of the reason in the delay in commissioning the INS Kolkata was they didn't have the numbers to man her

 

[Abingdonboy]

I do remember there was a report (not sure how true) that one of the reason in the delay in commissioning the INS Kolkata was they didn't have the numbers to man her

Training capacity is increasing across all IN training facilities but it's also likely that the next gen of ships will be more automated anyway requiring far less manpower to man them, already the Kolkata's have amongst the largest compliments of ships in their class mostly becuase the IN doesn't face the same labour shortages and costs as Western navies, as this begins to change they will follow the more automation route.

 

[R!cK]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1064744047380783104

https://twitter.com/x/status/1064763077823029248

 

[Ashwin]

India, Russia to build stealth frigates

India on Tuesday signed a $500 mn deal with Russia to locally manufacture two stealth frigates with technology transfer. The agreement was signed between Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) and Rosoboronexport of Russia.

“The $500 mn deal is for material, design and specialists assistance from Russia for the two ships. Balance work will be done by GSL, and it will have a whole lot of Indian equipment including BrahMos missiles,” an official source said.

The cost of the engines for the ships which would come directly from Ukraine and the cost of constructing them at GSL are in addition. While the ships are built by Russia, the engines are supplied by Zorya Nashproekt of Ukraine. Four gas turbine engines, gear boxes and specialist support will cost around $50 mn per ship, the source stated.

“Work on the two frigates will start in two years by mid-2020 and is expected to be completed by 2026- 2027,” the source added.

In October 2016, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for four Krivak or Talwar stealth frigates — two to be procured directly from Russia and two to be built by GSL. Of late, GSL has maintained a good track record. It has delivered 28 ships ahead of schedule in the last four years.

India recently signed a $1 bn deal with Russia for direct purchase of two frigates. The basic structures of the two frigates are already ready at Yantar shipyard in Russia and will be finished now.

After the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded approval for the deal, GSL was selected for the project in February 2017. Following this GSL completed the price negotiations with Russia as well as the Defence Ministry and the Indian Navy. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has already cleared the deal.

India had earlier procured six frigates weighing 4000 tonnes of the same class in two different batches, the Talwar class and the upgraded Teg class. The four ships to be built will weigh 300 tonnes more than the earlier ones and will be armed with BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, Navy officials had said earlier.

 

[Abingdonboy]

India, Russia to build stealth frigates

India on Tuesday signed a $500 mn deal with Russia to locally manufacture two stealth frigates with technology transfer. The agreement was signed between Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) and Rosoboronexport of Russia.

“The $500 mn deal is for material, design and specialists assistance from Russia for the two ships. Balance work will be done by GSL, and it will have a whole lot of Indian equipment including BrahMos missiles,” an official source said.

The cost of the engines for the ships which would come directly from Ukraine and the cost of constructing them at GSL are in addition. While the ships are built by Russia, the engines are supplied by Zorya Nashproekt of Ukraine. Four gas turbine engines, gear boxes and specialist support will cost around $50 mn per ship, the source stated.

“Work on the two frigates will start in two years by mid-2020 and is expected to be completed by 2026- 2027,” the source added.

In October 2016, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for four Krivak or Talwar stealth frigates — two to be procured directly from Russia and two to be built by GSL. Of late, GSL has maintained a good track record. It has delivered 28 ships ahead of schedule in the last four years.

India recently signed a $1 bn deal with Russia for direct purchase of two frigates. The basic structures of the two frigates are already ready at Yantar shipyard in Russia and will be finished now.

After the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded approval for the deal, GSL was selected for the project in February 2017. Following this GSL completed the price negotiations with Russia as well as the Defence Ministry and the Indian Navy. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has already cleared the deal.

India had earlier procured six frigates weighing 4000 tonnes of the same class in two different batches, the Talwar class and the upgraded Teg class. The four ships to be built will weigh 300 tonnes more than the earlier ones and will be armed with BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, Navy officials had said earlier.

Turns out the plan is even worse than I had expected. Instead of all 4 by 2024/5, the final 2 won’t be delivered before 2026-7.

By the end of 2025 all 7 17A will have been delivered.

Just gets more and more nonsensical.

 

[randomradio]

Turns out the plan is even worse than I had expected. Instead of all 4 by 2024/5, the final 2 won’t be delivered before 2026-7.

By the end of 2025 all 7 17A will have been delivered.

Just gets more and more nonsensical.

None of those dates are realistic for anybody.

 

[vstol Jockey]

we are basically buying equipment from Russia to prevent their dockyards from going bankrupt at the cost of making our own dockyards bankrupt. Imagine all these ships could have easily been made within India by giving orders to all those private dockyards which have gone kaput for lack of orders from Navy and ICG.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Turns out the plan is even worse than I had expected. Instead of all 4 by 2024/5, the final 2 won’t be delivered before 2026-7.

By the end of 2025 all 7 17A will have been delivered.

Just gets more and more nonsensical.

To begin with why are the lead times for these frigates as much as 6-7 years? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[randomradio]

we are basically buying equipment from Russia to prevent their dockyards from going bankrupt at the cost of making our own dockyards bankrupt. Imagine all these ships could have easily been made within India by giving orders to all those private dockyards which have gone kaput for lack of orders from Navy and ICG.

We are buying these ships because the first two have progressed a lot in construction and can be delivered very quickly.

 

[_Anonymous_]

We are buying these ships because the first two have progressed a lot in construction and can be delivered very quickly.

So when are the first 2 going to be delivered & why are the remaining 2 with a lead time as long as 6-7 years with 2 years required from date to commence manufacturing?

 

[randomradio]

So when are the first 2 going to be delivered & why are the remaining 2 with a lead time as long as 6-7 years with 2 years required from date to commence manufacturing?

The Russian ships will be delivered in 2022 and 2023.

The first two years is for non-production work, getting supplies, finalising contracts with vendors etc, then each ship needs 5 years to build and 1 year to test. However these two ships won't be ready until 2030 considering the delays when it comes to DPSUs. This contract should have gone to L&T, at least they have the potential to stick to the schedule.

 

[vstol Jockey]

The Russian ships will be delivered in 2022 and 2023.

The first two years is for non-production work, getting supplies, finalising contracts with vendors etc, then each ship needs 5 years to build and 1 year to test. However these two ships won't be ready until 2030 considering the delays when it comes to DPSUs. This contract should have gone to L&T, at least they have the potential to stick to the schedule.

These ships were turning into junk due to engines from Ukraine which were not supplied due to embargo by them for Crimia. Russians had already installed engines for these two ships but were not in a position to operate them. A tripartite deal was done in which India will buy them and Ukraine will supply engines for all four ships. Once again Russians have managed to arm twist us in selling us their Junk.

 

[Sathya]

The Russian ships will be delivered in 2022 and 2023.

The first two years is for non-production work, getting supplies, finalising contracts with vendors etc, then each ship needs 5 years to build and 1 year to test. However these two ships won't be ready until 2030 considering the delays when it comes to DPSUs. This contract should have gone to L&T, at least they have the potential to stick to the schedule.

r they building up the big ship building capacity ?

 

[randomradio]

r they building up the big ship building capacity ?

Yes. Once done, we will have a third shipyard capable of building such classes of ships.

 

[randomradio]

These ships were turning into junk due to engines from Ukraine which were not supplied due to embargo by them for Crimia. Russians had already installed engines for these two ships but were not in a position to operate them. A tripartite deal was done in which India will buy them and Ukraine will supply engines for all four ships. Once again Russians have managed to arm twist us in selling us their Junk.

Why are these ships "junk"?

The Russians do not have engines for these 2 ships anyway, the engine delivery was blocked.

Also, even with the 4 ships, we are still short of 1 ship to get to the sanctioned frigate strength of 24, and it's logical that the sanctioned strength will further increase in order to push the navy to a 200-ship navy over the next decade.

 

[Abingdonboy]

we are basically buying equipment from Russia to prevent their dockyards from going bankrupt at the cost of making our own dockyards bankrupt. Imagine all these ships could have easily been made within India by giving orders to all those private dockyards which have gone kaput for lack of orders from Navy and ICG.

Exactly. For a while now it has been clear India is propping up Russian MIC- FGFA, MKI, T90, Talwar etc etc

I fear I don’t want to know why, these are scandals of epic proportions.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Russian ships will be delivered in 2022 and 2023.

The first two years is for non-production work, getting supplies, finalising contracts with vendors etc, then each ship needs 5 years to build and 1 year to test. However these two ships won't be ready until 2030 considering the delays when it comes to DPSUs. This contract should have gone to L&T, at least they have the potential to stick to the schedule.

5 years to make a 4,000 ton frigate? Absurd.

MDL and GRSE are making more advanced 7,000 ton frigates in the same time.

When they are delivered in 2026-7 they will already be outdated

 

[vstol Jockey]

Why are these ships "junk"?

The Russians do not have engines for these 2 ships anyway, the engine delivery was blocked.

Also, even with the 4 ships, we are still short of 1 ship to get to the sanctioned frigate strength of 24, and it's logical that the sanctioned strength will further increase in order to push the navy to a 200-ship navy over the next decade.

Ship hulls get rusted over a period of time. The hulls of these ships were created six years back so what we are getting are hulls with reduced life. Pls do not teach me about ships. I am a Watch keeping certificate holder from Indian Navy and also the topper of Western command as a Midshipman and also adjudged best Junior officer of western command in 1991.

 

[Milspec]

Exactly. For a while now it has been clear India is propping up Russian MIC- FGFA, MKI, T90, Talwar etc etc

I fear I don’t want to know why, these are scandals of epic proportions.

Really, what makes you say that about MKI, T90, and Talwar?