Shivalik Class (Project 17/17A) & Talwar Class Frigates

Amal

GSLV Mk III
Nov 30, 2017
651
881
Kerala
Da0zglLXUAAUe0j.jpg
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,102
10,617
India
Piecemeal orders. Albeit this is the first order of significant ones. Earlier we used to order 3, then 4 or another 3 of the same type with long delays in between. China builds 7 in one go in one config before going for minor or major upgrade with same base and orders another batch of 7. We should start following their same models. Their single shipyard is building 7 destroyers simultaneously. We have got to adapt and build ships at a faster rate. Time to try out Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine too.

Even they started building with 2 or 3 ships at first. Now they have money.
 

Vicky

Rajaraja Chola
Dec 1, 2017
371
411
Canada
Even they started building with 2 or 3 ships at first. Now they have money.

The thing is we are also building 7 ships. But 4+3. or 2+2+3. The new orders are always placed during execution or end of first order. We can save good amount of money if ordered at once, where integration can be delayed according to budget constraints at shipyard. Even Su30, we never ordered 270 in single go, even though AF wanted 300 and accepted by govt. Instead it was 40+140+70. What sort of Supply chain savings would be there if ordered piecemealsy/? As a result HAL produces only 12 Su30 PA due to these orders. If HAL was given an order of 270, it could be manufacturing 24 PA easily.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,102
10,617
India
The thing is we are also building 7 ships. But 4+3. or 2+2+3. The new orders are always placed during execution or end of first order. We can save good amount of money if ordered at once, where integration can be delayed according to budget constraints at shipyard. Even Su30, we never ordered 270 in single go, even though AF wanted 300 and accepted by govt. Instead it was 40+140+70. What sort of Supply chain savings would be there if ordered piecemealsy/? As a result HAL produces only 12 Su30 PA due to these orders. If HAL was given an order of 270, it could be manufacturing 24 PA easily.

Our order numbers will start increasing as the budget increases.
 

Bali78

Senior member
Dec 26, 2017
1,137
1,157
USA
The thing is we are also building 7 ships. But 4+3. or 2+2+3. The new orders are always placed during execution or end of first order. We can save good amount of money if ordered at once, where integration can be delayed according to budget constraints at shipyard. Even Su30, we never ordered 270 in single go, even though AF wanted 300 and accepted by govt. Instead it was 40+140+70. What sort of Supply chain savings would be there if ordered piecemealsy/? As a result HAL produces only 12 Su30 PA due to these orders. If HAL was given an order of 270, it could be manufacturing 24 PA easily.
When the order for 140 Su-30 was being discussed, there was an article in ToI which complained that China is going to have almost 300+ flankers in few years time and India is still discussing about buying only 140!! That time our total budget was only 3-4 lakh crores. How could India place order for 270 Su-30s at one go? As our budget grows, India can place bigger orders as well. Issue is the price of defense equipment is growing at a much faster rate than our economy. I am not sure how long India can sustain these expensive imports, particularly the Air force!!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Volcano

Vicky

Rajaraja Chola
Dec 1, 2017
371
411
Canada
When the order for 140 Su-30 was being discussed, there was an article in ToI which complained that China is going to have almost 300+ flankers in few years time and India is still discussing about buying only 140!! That time our total budget was only 3-4 lakh crores. How could India place order for 270 Su-30s at one go? As our budget grows, India can place bigger orders as well. Issue is the price of defense equipment is growing at a much faster rate than our economy. I am not sure how long India can sustain these expensive imports, particularly the Air force!!

Course we can. In the end we spent more money on Su30 than China ever did. Due to piecemeal orders, Su30 made in India was costlier than in Russia. Its not like we are going to sanction 4 lakh crores in a single financial year. It will be divided into 10 years or less. Restarting an line is rather cumbersome and costly.
For example L&T makes wings. Now if you order piecemeal, after an order, they dismantle the workspace and do for other projects. When you order again, it again takes up setting up costs, raw material costs, its tax, logistics from raw material to delivery. Finally its more costly than ordering 300 in a single go.
 

Bali78

Senior member
Dec 26, 2017
1,137
1,157
USA
Course we can. In the end we spent more money on Su30 than China ever did. Due to piecemeal orders, Su30 made in India was costlier than in Russia. Its not like we are going to sanction 4 lakh crores in a single financial year. It will be divided into 10 years or less. Restarting an line is rather cumbersome and costly.
For example L&T makes wings. Now if you order piecemeal, after an order, they dismantle the workspace and do for other projects. When you order again, it again takes up setting up costs, raw material costs, its tax, logistics from raw material to delivery. Finally its more costly than ordering 300 in a single go.
I am not questioning the benefits of scale. But during early 2000s India just didn't have the capacity to go for huge orders. In 2003, if somebody had claimed that India is going to have tax base of 20 lakh crores in 2018, most people would have advised him some kind of psychological treatment :). Yet, it's the reality now!! It's easy to look back and suggest something. But that point of time even 140 appeared as a huge number.

The cost of India made flankers is high due to high level of inefficiency in HAL. Even if you place double the order, you won't see much of a price difference. Sometime back I read an article about how expensive titanium blocks imported from Russia for Su-30, are wasted in HAL. Cost efficiency is the last thing any PSU cares about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vicky

Vicky

Rajaraja Chola
Dec 1, 2017
371
411
Canada
I am not questioning the benefits of scale. But during early 2000s India just didn't have the capacity to go for huge orders. In 2003, if somebody had claimed that India is going to have tax base of 20 lakh crores in 2018, most people would have advised him some kind of psychological treatment :). Yet, it's the reality now!! It's easy to look back and suggest something. But that point of time even 140 appeared as a huge number.

The cost of India made flankers is high due to high level of inefficiency in HAL. Even if you place double the order, you won't see much of a price difference. Sometime back I read an article about how expensive titanium blocks imported from Russia for Su-30, are wasted in HAL. Cost efficiency is the last thing any PSU cares about.

HAL on its defence says, you cannot save costs on piecemeal orders. It does cost more in re-establishing supply chain everytime. However Govt should own only 60% of HAL shares and bring in private investors so they can improve on it, while at the same time, government can control HAL and strategic projects.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,102
10,617
India
Looks like the P-17A is unaffected by the accident at GRSE.

GRSE strives to achieve milestones despite major accident - Times of India

Kolkata: Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE) has said that it will achieve its milestones despite the setback suffered due to the accident at the main yard during the thunder squall on April 17.

Around 8 pm on April 17, when the wind speed reached its peak, a 250-tonne Goliath crane came crashing down on the modular hall and some work sheds. “Though some sheds and the modular hall did suffer structural damage, none of the vessels that were being built were affected. During the accident, there was a Landing Craft Utility for the Navy and two Fast Patrol Boats for the Coast Guard that were in various stages of completion. None of these were affected. Even the hull of a stealth frigate under the Navy’s 17A project that was kept in the modular hall was not damaged. We are now working on how to move our operations to our two other units,” a GRSE spokesperson said.

GRSE has been awarded the contract for three of the seven stealth frigates under Project 17A. The first ship, costing upward of Rs 4,000 crore, is expected to sail out by 2022.

By mid 2018-19, GRSE is also likely to bag orders for survey ships and a large number of shallow water ASW vessels. Officials are sniffing a conspiracy behind a media leak from anonymous sources that stated how operations at the shipyard have been crippled and important projects of the Navy will suffer delays because of the accident.

“Despite locational disadvantages such as shallow draft, we are bagging orders because of our performance. We are now competing with other shipyards, including private ones, to bag orders. Somebody may have taken this opportunity to tarnish our image,” an official said.

According to GRSE, the entire shipyard is under insurance cover and there will not be any set back financially.
 

Austerlitz

Well-Known member
Jun 2, 2018
358
707
Kolkata
The ships look great with top notch weapons and sensors,but the thales radar has to go.As do RBUs for a newer alternative like asroc/paket.With all that space left empty they can surely add 16 more barak-8.Also if russia can put 16 oniks/brahmos on a 5k tonne admiral gorshkov frigate we should put 16 brahmos on p17a as well.Hopefully new vls cells will be added on during refits in the kolkata and vizag classes and kamortas as well.Then replace the shtil arm launcher on the shivalik,delhi and talwars with vls,fix the submarine heavy torpedo problem and helicopter shortage and blue water navy is good to roll.
 

Paro

Bloom17
Dec 2, 2017
1,169
1,009
United States
The ships look great with top notch weapons and sensors,but the thales radar has to go.As do RBUs for a newer alternative like asroc/paket.With all that space left empty they can surely add 16 more barak-8.Also if russia can put 16 oniks/brahmos on a 5k tonne admiral gorshkov frigate we should put 16 brahmos on p17a as well.Hopefully new vls cells will be added on during refits in the kolkata and vizag classes and kamortas as well.Then replace the shtil arm launcher on the shivalik,delhi and talwars with vls,fix the submarine heavy torpedo problem and helicopter shortage and blue water navy is good to roll.
are we doing anything to reduce the build time for the ships? china seems to be really efficient in rolling out ships in a very short span.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bali78

Austerlitz

Well-Known member
Jun 2, 2018
358
707
Kolkata
are we doing anything to reduce the build time for the ships? china seems to be really efficient in rolling out ships in a very short span.

New shops are being built through modular process.All steel is now domestic.Earlier these 2 were main culprits.I'm not worried about pace of building,as we couldn't order more ships even if we have time because of budgetary constraints.We need to focus on economy,the bigger the economy,automatically our navy size will grow huge.My dream is one day we have 2-3 carriers equal/similar to the british queen elizabeth class with 5th gen fighters.
 

R!cK

Well-Known member
Dec 8, 2017
240
536
Dubai, UAE
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Oct 29, 2018, 07.40 AM IST

The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.

INS_Trikand_%28F51%29-image10.jpg


Russia has inked a $950 -million deal to supply two new warships to India that will be equipped with Brahmos missiles to add to the firepower of the Navy. The two frigates of the Project 11356 class will be bought directly from Russia and a contract to build two more at an Indian yard is likely to be signed at a later stage.

fregate-20161017.jpg


Sources told ET that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations.

Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route. The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.

The two ships to be brought from Russia are expected to be delivered by 2022, given that the hulls have already been fabricated for a Russian navy order that got stalled following the Ukrainian crisis. The ships have been designed to work with Ukraine-made gas turbines.

frigate.jpg

The two frigates are likely to be brought to India after construction to fit the gas turbines at a local yard as the order for turbines has been placed directly by New Delhi with Ukraine, to bypass any complications given the Ukraine-Russian relations.

There had been initial discussions to involve the Indian private sector to build two of the ships but the government decided to nominate state-owned Goa Shipyard. It is not clear if the decision still stands or the ministry will follow a competitive process to determine the local partner.

8655968577_cff111c24c_b.jpg


The Goa Shipyard has been facing financial stress and has not been able to go ahead on an earlier order for new minesweeper vessels that are desperately needed by the Navy.

The process to acquire the minesweepers has been aborted twice and an attempt is now being made to issue tenders for the project.

India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
Staff member
Administrator
Nov 30, 2017
5,176
8,547
Bangalore
First locally built 11356 frigate to be handed over to Indian Navy in 2023

The first frigate of Russian project 11356 built by a license in India will be handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023, a representative of Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) told TASS at Euronaval naval show.
"After the signing of a corresponding contract the first (frigate of project 11356) will be laid in 2019 and handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023. Yantar shipyard on the Baltic Sea will provide the necessary technological assistance and supply some sections for assembly," the source said.

The venue for the frigate construction has been determined. Some India-designed onboard equipment will be installed. "The power plant will be supplied by Ukraine, in particular, by Zorya-Mashproekt," he said.
The weapons of the frigate have not been determined yet. "However, talks are underway with BrahMos Aerospace Company," the source said.

Indian media earlier reported the government planned to procure in Russian four frigates of project 11356. Two will be built by Yantar shipyard and two by GSL. They are designed to strike at surface warships and submarines in blue and green waters and fight air targets solo and within groups. A corresponding agreement was not signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India on October 4-5.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,102
10,617
India
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Oct 29, 2018, 07.40 AM IST

The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.

INS_Trikand_%28F51%29-image10.jpg


Russia has inked a $950 -million deal to supply two new warships to India that will be equipped with Brahmos missiles to add to the firepower of the Navy. The two frigates of the Project 11356 class will be bought directly from Russia and a contract to build two more at an Indian yard is likely to be signed at a later stage.

fregate-20161017.jpg


Sources told ET that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations.

Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route. The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.

The two ships to be brought from Russia are expected to be delivered by 2022, given that the hulls have already been fabricated for a Russian navy order that got stalled following the Ukrainian crisis. The ships have been designed to work with Ukraine-made gas turbines.

frigate.jpg

The two frigates are likely to be brought to India after construction to fit the gas turbines at a local yard as the order for turbines has been placed directly by New Delhi with Ukraine, to bypass any complications given the Ukraine-Russian relations.

There had been initial discussions to involve the Indian private sector to build two of the ships but the government decided to nominate state-owned Goa Shipyard. It is not clear if the decision still stands or the ministry will follow a competitive process to determine the local partner.

8655968577_cff111c24c_b.jpg


The Goa Shipyard has been facing financial stress and has not been able to go ahead on an earlier order for new minesweeper vessels that are desperately needed by the Navy.

The process to acquire the minesweepers has been aborted twice and an attempt is now being made to issue tenders for the project.

India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates

The new ships will look amazing with an integrated mast.
 

Abingdonboy

Team StratFront
Dec 1, 2017
154
388
UK
First locally built 11356 frigate to be handed over to Indian Navy in 2023

The first frigate of Russian project 11356 built by a license in India will be handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023, a representative of Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) told TASS at Euronaval naval show.
"After the signing of a corresponding contract the first (frigate of project 11356) will be laid in 2019 and handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023. Yantar shipyard on the Baltic Sea will provide the necessary technological assistance and supply some sections for assembly," the source said.

The venue for the frigate construction has been determined. Some India-designed onboard equipment will be installed. "The power plant will be supplied by Ukraine, in particular, by Zorya-Mashproekt," he said.
The weapons of the frigate have not been determined yet. "However, talks are underway with BrahMos Aerospace Company," the source said.

Indian media earlier reported the government planned to procure in Russian four frigates of project 11356. Two will be built by Yantar shipyard and two by GSL. They are designed to strike at surface warships and submarines in blue and green waters and fight air targets solo and within groups. A corresponding agreement was not signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India on October 4-5.
So by 2027 the IN will have inducted 11 brand new frigates (7 P17A+4 11356) in the space of 5 years? That’s really not a bad effort, just hope that they give another 7+ order for P-17As, would be criminal to throw away the capacity that is being created by MDL and GRSE.


Now IN really needs to sort out it’s Destroyer program, the P15Bs were ordered in too few quantities and project management and supplier issues have delayed delivery by years.


+ any clarity on the SAM system for these 11356s? A real weakness vis a vis the 17A is the lack of LRSAM and MFSTAR
 
Last edited: