Shivalik Class (Project 17/17A) & Talwar Class Frigates

Gautam

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I wonder what modernization package the Russians are offering. In the ongoing ARMY expo in Russia they have apparently offered the Palash CIWS to replace the AK630s that the Navy uses in the entire fleet. 3 of the Talwars have the 630, other 3 use the Kashtan CIWS.

Obviously there would be the Shtil-1 VLS on offer replacing the old arm launchers. Maybe without the arm launchers missile count can be increased from 24 to 32. I don't think the Talwars have much space for more cruise missiles, unless you get rid of the RBUs. The main gun can be upgrade from 100mm to 130mm, won't make a huge difference though.
INS_Talwar.jpg

That's all that comes to mind really. The Talwars are already pretty well equipped. The Russians could offer Redut series SAMs instead of Shtil. I doubt the Navy would like to add yet another SAM to their collection. the Navy could be interested in better radars though.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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I wonder what modernization package the Russians are offering. In the ongoing ARMY expo in Russia they have apparently offered the Palash CIWS to replace the AK630s that the Navy uses in the entire fleet. 3 of the Talwars have the 630, other 3 use the Kashtan CIWS.

Obviously there would be the Shtil-1 VLS on offer replacing the old arm launchers. Maybe without the arm launchers missile count can be increased from 24 to 32. I don't think the Talwars have much space for more cruise missiles, unless you get rid of the RBUs. The main gun can be upgrade from 100mm to 130mm, won't make a huge difference though.
View attachment 20679
That's all that comes to mind really. The Talwars are already pretty well equipped. The Russians could offer Redut series SAMs instead of Shtil. I doubt the Navy would like to add yet another SAM to their collection. the Navy could be interested in better radars though.

I would advice the Navy to ask for KALIBR missiles 🤣
 
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randomradio

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I wonder what modernization package the Russians are offering. In the ongoing ARMY expo in Russia they have apparently offered the Palash CIWS to replace the AK630s that the Navy uses in the entire fleet. 3 of the Talwars have the 630, other 3 use the Kashtan CIWS.

Obviously there would be the Shtil-1 VLS on offer replacing the old arm launchers. Maybe without the arm launchers missile count can be increased from 24 to 32. I don't think the Talwars have much space for more cruise missiles, unless you get rid of the RBUs. The main gun can be upgrade from 100mm to 130mm, won't make a huge difference though.
View attachment 20679
That's all that comes to mind really. The Talwars are already pretty well equipped. The Russians could offer Redut series SAMs instead of Shtil. I doubt the Navy would like to add yet another SAM to their collection. the Navy could be interested in better radars though.

Gotta keep it simple. Get the same stuff that's coming with the 4 new Talwars.
 

Ashwin

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Amal

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The ship being built in Yard no. 3023 was laid down in January 2020. Work seems to have progressed well despite the pandemic. This ship is expected to be launched in July 2022.
Screenshot (609).png

Used to wonder how they worked around the non-availability of the larger goliath cranes when working with larger modules of P17A. The one for the modernized drydock/ slipway collapsed due to a cyclone & it wasn't ever installed for this drydock. Finally, found out how. At the center of this pic, near those two trees.

1630523424118.png


Crawler cranes. :cool:
 

SammyBoi

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May 14, 2021
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1631259716986.png

So many ATLAS Electronik ACTAS systems in so many of our frigates - frickin' awesome!
A huge capability void plugged, imo.....
 
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Gautam

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INS Shivalik (F47) in Indonesia. In the last few years the Navy has maintained a constant deployment of a Shivalik class frigate & a Kamorta class ASW corvette in rotation in the waters around South East Asia & the SCS.

The pattern is usually INS Shivalik with INS Kadmatt, INS Satpura with INS Kamorta & INS Sahyadri with INS Kiltan. They are often accompanied by Kora class missile boats (INS Kirch & INS Kulish most commonly), a fleet tanker (INS Shakti or INS Aditya) & often a destroyer (Rajput class or Kolkata class).
1632220752790.png
1632220722765.png

1632220763747.png
 

Gautam

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INS Nilgiri at MDL getting outfitted:
Screenshot (690).png


INS Himgiri at GRSE being outfitted:
Screenshot (689).png


Notice the difference ? Nilgiri is at a much more advanced state. The bridge, the helicopter bay, radar mast etc. are all being built. But the exhaust stack has not been erected yet.

On the other hand, GRSE has already built Himgiri's exhaust stack. The engines have been integrated already. The rest of Himgiri is pretty empty though. No bridge, no helo bay, no radar mast. It is just as hull with the exhaust stack.

Interesting isn't it ? 2 shipyards building 2 ships of the same class with a different sequence of construction. One is doing the exhaust first & the other is doing exhaust last. Nilgiri & Himgiri will be delivered mid-2022 & mid-2023 respectively.
 

Gautam

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How did you arrive at this conculsion? (genuine question).
The exhaust stack has a bottom up configuration. The weight of the top layer is supported by the bottom. You can transfer the weight to the hull & superstructure at the end of the integration process.

If the engine haven't been integrated then the stack is being supported by the hull only, remember there is no superstructure yet. So to install the engines they would have to cut & remove the stack, use cranes to place the engines & then re-attach the stack back to the hull. Why would anyone do this ?

The only logical conclusion is that the stack is mounted because the engines & generators are in place. Also look at the area where the exhaust stack will be on the Nilgiri, you can see the hole in the top deck. That gap is for placing & installing the engines.
At this point, do the Nilgiri-class frigates appear to be on schedule?
Look at the bottom left of the photos I posted. You can see the date these images are from. It's hard to say if things are exactly on schedule but it appears to be broadly on schedule.

One major problem can be the BAE Mark 45 gun. The Nilgiri class were supposed tp get those along with the Vizag class. But last we heard talks with BAE has fallen through. There is some indication that the Navy may go back to the Otobreda 127mm gun. But nothing is certain. If the uncertainty continues it will hit the delivery schedules.

Or maybe the Navy will have to settle for the 76mm OTO Melara for the time being.
 

Gautam

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From the article:
Goa Shipyard's order involves the supply of an upgraded Super Rapid Gun Mount or SRGM - the Main gun onboard most Warships of the Indian Navy, according to a regulatory filing by the company to the stock exchanges today.
Probably the 76mm OTO Melara. BHEL license produces those.
The order won by the government owned engineering and manufacturing enterprise consists of the supply, installation, and commissioning of the entire system. This involves the upgraded gun mount and accessories for the ''triput class frigates'' of the Indian Navy, which will be manufactured at the Haridwar unit of Bharat Heavy Electricals.
What class frigates ? Triput ? Never heard of this before.

GSL is building 2 Talwar class frigates. But those ships don't use the 76mm. Instead they use the Russian 100mm A-190E naval main gun. Why would the last 2 ships get different guns of smaller caliber when the other 8 are getting the 100mm ?

The other frigates of the IN are the Shivalik class & Brahmaputra class, both of which came with the 76mm as standard. The Godavari class has the 57m as standard. Although there is one 1 of those left in service. The last of the Godavari class, the INS Gomati, is 33 years old. I doubt Gomati will get any upgrades.

The newest frigates, the Nilgiri class, were supposed to get the 127mm BAE Mark 45 Mod4 guns. But that deal has fallen through, so it is possible that the Nilgiris may come with the 76mm. That is the only likely place of order for the 76mm right now, until the ASW-SWC & ASuW NGMVs are launched.

GSL is not involved with the Nilgiri class frigate either. So...doesn't make sense. Unless GSL plans to supply hull blocks for the Nilgiri class frigates.
 

Chain Smoker

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From the article:

Probably the 76mm OTO Melara. BHEL license produces those.

What class frigates ? Triput ? Never heard of this before.

GSL is building 2 Talwar class frigates. But those ships don't use the 76mm. Instead they use the Russian 100mm A-190E naval main gun. Why would the last 2 ships get different guns of smaller caliber when the other 8 are getting the 100mm ?

The other frigates of the IN are the Shivalik class & Brahmaputra class, both of which came with the 76mm as standard. The Godavari class has the 57m as standard. Although there is one 1 of those left in service. The last of the Godavari class, the INS Gomati, is 33 years old. I doubt Gomati will get any upgrades.

The newest frigates, the Nilgiri class, were supposed to get the 127mm BAE Mark 45 Mod4 guns. But that deal has fallen through, so it is possible that the Nilgiris may come with the 76mm. That is the only likely place of order for the 76mm right now, until the ASW-SWC & ASuW NGMVs are launched.

GSL is not involved with the Nilgiri class frigate either. So...doesn't make sense. Unless GSL plans to supply hull blocks for the Nilgiri class frigates.
Upgraded SRGM
IMG_20210928_204313.jpg
 

Gautam

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This poster is from a BHEL presentation at FICCI in 2016. BHEL has been manufacturing the 76mm Oto Melara gun under license at their Haridwar plant for a while now. They are doing a pretty good job too, never heard the Navy complain about the 76mm.


In 2012 the Navy signed a deal with the company for licensing the 127mm/64 cal. Otobreda naval gun to be built at Haridwar. A few years after that the Italian defence group Leonardo S.p.A. or Finmecannica as it was known then got blacklisted by the MoD for the AgustaWestland bribery case. Finmecannica also owned the Oto Melara. There goes the naval gun deal.

This photo is also from the BHEL presentation:
Screenshot (701).png


Navy had to settle for the 76mm on their Kolkata class. The Vizags were supposed to get the 127mm from BAE. But apparently BAE charged an exorbitant amount. By the time negotiations were still ongoing the Vizags were being outfitter & needed those guns immediately. So they navy decided to get 76mm as an interim solution. Now the deal with BAE has fallen through and if the situation isn't fixed the Nilgiri's would also get the 76mm.

Political relationship with Italy has drastically improved in the last few years with the end of the Italian marines case. It is possible that Finmecannica has been removed from the blacklist. After all South African defense firm Denel was removed from the blacklist in a similar fashion.

If this new article is indeed referring to the STRALES upgrade then it is a very good news. Its not that the STRALES upgrade that is very important. But the possibility of getting the 127mm Otobreda made in India.

It would also makes sense then that BHEL is delivering the guns to GSL. GSL may not have built any frigates yet but they have enough of experience to do a gun swap. The other shipyards are probably busy. The question still remains which frigates are getting these upgraded guns ? It is most likely the Shavalik class.
 

Chain Smoker

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This poster is from a BHEL presentation at FICCI in 2016. BHEL has been manufacturing the 76mm Oto Melara gun under license at their Haridwar plant for a while now. They are doing a pretty good job too, never heard the Navy complain about the 76mm.


In 2012 the Navy signed a deal with the company for licensing the 127mm/64 cal. Otobreda naval gun to be built at Haridwar. A few years after that the Italian defence group Leonardo S.p.A. or Finmecannica as it was known then got blacklisted by the MoD for the AgustaWestland bribery case. Finmecannica also owned the Oto Melara. There goes the naval gun deal.

This photo is also from the BHEL presentation:
View attachment 21192

Navy had to settle for the 76mm on their Kolkata class. The Vizags were supposed to get the 127mm from BAE. But apparently BAE charged an exorbitant amount. By the time negotiations were still ongoing the Vizags were being outfitter & needed those guns immediately. So they navy decided to get 76mm as an interim solution. Now the deal with BAE has fallen through and if the situation isn't fixed the Nilgiri's would also get the 76mm.

Political relationship with Italy has drastically improved in the last few years with the end of the Italian marines case. It is possible that Finmecannica has been removed from the blacklist. After all South African defense firm Denel was removed from the blacklist in a similar fashion.

If this new article is indeed referring to the STRALES upgrade then it is a very good news. Its not that the STRALES upgrade that is very important. But the possibility of getting the 127mm Otobreda made in India.

It would also makes sense then that BHEL is delivering the guns to GSL. GSL may not have built any frigates yet but they have enough of experience to do a gun swap. The other shipyards are probably busy. The question still remains which frigates are getting these upgraded guns ? It is most likely the Shavalik class.
They are also developing 127mm is that pic a real one or just for representation.