Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Mirage 2000
Armament

Guns: 2× 30 mm (1.2 in) DEFA 554 revolver cannon, 125 rounds per gun
M2000 cannons are differents than the sole of Rafale :

M2000 cannons : nearly 1200 round/minute each, 30x113mm round, 820m/s muzzle velocity. Weight 121kg each (not sure of this data...)

Rafale cannon : 2500 round/minute, 30x150mm round, more than 1000m/s muzzle velocity. weight 120kg.

So Rafale canon alone has the fire rate of the twin of Mirage, with bigger rounds and higher velocity for less weight. It took time to NEXTER to reach a proper reliability... but now it's OK.
 
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No the assembly line is flexible and is able to deliver 1 to 3 Rafale a month, but we have to decide 3 years in advance what will be the rate. The current delivery end in September 2022 six years after the order in september 2016 and 3 years after the delivery begining.
If the objective had been to continue the production of Rafale after the end of the current contract you would have had to order them in September 2019, if you order them now you will have them in June 2023 instead of September 2022. The only way to go faster is to divert the French production! (which we did for Egypt).
There is a sole possibility in case of a new Indian order NOW to shorten the delivery of the first ones : using some slots of the remaining 28 for France air force....
IT'S A POLITICAL DECISION (French air force will not agree, but the decision is always taken at a political level).
So, on an average you take 3 years to deliver an aircraft irrespective of the production lines you have. Is that right ?
The total lead time is only partially driven by the assembly line.
The main time is used to produce some very complicated forging parts for the under carriage, for the engines (blisk...), and probably some parts of radars and Spectra.
 
How much is ordered for French from the line.. This year and next year..?
France have ordered 180 Rafale and Dassault have delivered 152 and we ended the production to prioritise the export (and also because we wanted to limit our deficit to 3%) the 28 remaining will be produce starting in 2022 at a rate of 1 by month. There will be F4.2 ready. After that we will order between 30 and 45 new Rafale (the final number needed is 225 when all the mirage will be retired in 2032).
After that perhaps we will order some more Rafale to replace the older ones.
 
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Need I say more?
We should not undermine a claim solely because of he is chinese. May be offtopic, few days back people in this forum ridiculed Mr Saurav Jha on his tweets and now we know where we are.
I have posted this for a constructive discussion, because most probably we are gonna face j20 in battle field.
@Picdelamirand-oil can say something here....
 
We should not undermine a claim solely because of he is chinese. May be offtopic, few days back people in this forum ridiculed Mr Saurav Jha on his tweets and now we know where we are.
Well, to begin with, we have heard Chinese are having trouble with their fifth gen engine as late as Jan 2020 :



China was thought to have built about 50 J-20s by the end of 2019, but problems with the jets' engines delayed production plans. Chinese engineers have been developing high-thrust turbofan WS-15 engines for the J-20, but that work has fallen behind schedule.

Second, besides China, we have no real source of third party info about 4th gen Chinese fighters or 5th gen Chinese plane.

There are only two working and reliable 5th gen fighters. F-22 and F-35.

Furthermore, do Chinese A2A missiles feature on other planes? Like Israeli missiles? Or european missiles? Its all Chinese missiles on Chinese or China owned Russian planes at max. That too will have a Chinese radar. Whats the track record of Chinese missiles? How many confirmed kills to day? ZERO.

If China had real platforms and weapons we would seeing good amount of orders. J-10C? Only operator is China. J-XX only China.
 
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We should not undermine a claim solely because of he is chinese. May be offtopic, few days back people in this forum ridiculed Mr Saurav Jha on his tweets and now we know where we are.
I have posted this for a constructive discussion, because most probably we are gonna face j20 in battle field.
@Picdelamirand-oil can say something here....
That's twice I've been asked, and it's an honour for me, so I'll try to answer. First of all, I don't have any reliable information about Chinese planes: the only information we have had is from Parikrama/Aashish.

@Abingdonboy is aware of all this along with @Ankit Kumar 001 for some time. They are not happy owing to the fact that IAF assessment puts Rafale NV at the same league of PAKFA implying the present PAKFA is not a true giant as it was set out to be.

Secondly, in terms of assessment , PAKFA is still found to be superior to Chinese 5th Gen programs. Thus, IAF contends Rafale NV is good enough for all these threats and needs the fleet of Rafales asap. Use the time to make FGFA and mature it properly to meet the real requirements.
Unfortunately the link is broken
If it was a French assessment, one might doubt the reality of the performances reported, but normally it was an IAF statement that Parikrama was reporting and therefore the J 20 does not seem to be very threatening from the IAF's point of view.
 
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Well, to begin with, we have heard Chinese are having trouble with their fifth gen engine as late as Jan 2020 :





Second, besides China, we have no real source of third party info about 4th gen Chinese fighters or 5th gen Chinese plane.

There are only two working and reliable 5th gen fighters. F-22 and F-35.

Furthermore, do Chinese A2A missiles feature on other planes? Like Israeli missiles? Or european missiles? Its all Chinese missiles on Chinese or China owned Russian planes at max. That too will have a Chinese radar. Whats the track record of Chinese missiles? How many confirmed kills to day? ZERO.

If China had real platforms and weapons we would seeing good amount of orders. J-10C? Only operator is China. J-XX only China.
I agreed that no one knows about anything about their gears. But they do know about our military gears since most of the equipment we using are of russian origins and chinese are well aware of russian equipment, even rafale also not that much alien to the world.
Now lets come to the logic, no one wants to equip their military with dumb items, donyou believe that world's second largest economy, with imperialist attitude on territory enlarging, aspiring to defeat uncle sam with military will equip its top end fighter with dud technology?
 
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There are only two working and reliable 5th gen fighters. F-22 and F-35.
Sorry, no.
Only one : F22.

F35 failed at least to 2 of the 5 assets of a 5th gen jet according to the own LM definition : It is not supercruising, it is not a 'F16 like' agile bird.
And there are some doubts about the data fusion. But this last point will be solved. But the flying brick will never be agile or supercruising : it is shaped as a piece of sugar.
1593097933262.png
 
I agreed that no one knows about anything about their gears. But they do know about our military gears since most of the equipment we using are of russian origins and chinese are well aware of russian equipment, even rafale also not that much alien to the world.
Now lets come to the logic, no one wants to equip their military with dumb items, donyou believe that world's second largest economy, with imperialist attitude on territory enlarging, aspiring to defeat uncle sam with military will equip its top end fighter with dud technology?
You dont start out to make a dud. Dud happens because of lack of know how, experience and feed back. Once you end up with a dud, will you tell everyone that you have dud? No... rather you will buy the real capability from somewhere and keep on tweaking with your dud.

China bought Su-35 for same exact reason. Their fifth gen fighters are running into multiple issues so they bought something which is very likely to work and possible allows them to study its engine.

Look at their so called missiles. PL-12 is not even a knock off. Its a Russian seeker on chinese motor. Pl-15 is too new for any reliable information. PL-21 looks like a Novotor knock off. Then they have ridiculous claim. Some of these Chinese expert claim a 500KM+ range on Pl-15 for fighter sized target. Yeah good luck.
 
Sorry, no.
Only one : F22.

F35 failed at least to 2 of the 5 assets of a 5th gen jet according to the own LM definition : It is not supercruising, it is not a 'F16 like' agile bird.
True indeed.

Supercruise
Super manuverablity
All aspect Stealth
Sensor Fusion
Low Probability of Intercept Radar.
 
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You dont start out to make a dud. Dud happens because of lack of know how, experience and feed back. Once you end up with a dud, will you tell everyone that you have dud? No... rather you will buy the real capability from somewhere and keep on tweaking with your dud.

China bought Su-35 for same exact reason. Their fifth gen fighters are running into multiple issues so they bought something which is very likely to work and possible allows them to study its engine.

Look at their so called missiles. PL-12 is not even a knock off. Its a Russian seeker on chinese motor. Pl-15 is too new for any reliable information. PL-21 looks like a Novotor knock off. Then they have ridiculous claim. Some of these Chinese expert claim a 500KM+ range on Pl-15 for fighter sized target. Yeah good luck.
USAF has given orders for whopping 159 f15 EX, do you think that USAF is ordering f15 because f22&f35 are useless? I dont think so.like that chinese might have found su35s utility along with their other assets.
And regarding seekers, our Astra, Brahmos was having russian seekers once.
 
USAF has given orders for whopping 159 f15 EX, do you think that USAF is ordering f15 because f22&f35 are useless? I dont think so.
USAF find that the 5th gen lacks of flexibility and are costly to operate. So they ordered some more gen 5- birds.
 
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USAF find that the 5th gen lacks of flexibility and are costly to operate. So they ordered some more gen 5- birds.
Exactly, the modern 4th gen do have some role in the era of gen 5 fighters. That could be the reason why chinese ordering su35s. What i meant to say is that we should not undermine j20 of china, since china is ordering su35s.
 
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IAF Rafales Land July 27, ‘Gamechanger’ Weaponry To Arrive Ahead

When the first Indian Air Force Rafale jets land in Ambala on July 27, their weaponry will have already been delivered and stored, ready for operations with the inaugural squadron, ‘Golden Arrows’. Livefist can confirm that key weapon stocks, including the SCALP cruise missile and Meteor beyond visual air to air missile, have already begun arriving in consignments, with the first lot to be completed by the first week of July.

At least six Rafales will take off from Istres, France and make a single stopover at the UAE’s Al Dhafra air force base near Abu Dhabi. The jets, to be ferried by Indian pilots, will be accompanied by a French Air Force tanker, possible one of the two new A330 MRTT tankers. While the initial plan was to deliver four Rafales, Livefist can confirm that the IAF and Dassault Aviation are working to ensure at least six airframes arrive in one go, with the possibility of that number increasing by a couple of airframes.

By August, the Indian Rafales will be operationally ready. Apart from the inauguration of the Golden Arrows squadron in August-September, the Rafales will likely make their first public appearance at the October 8 Air Force Day flypast over Delhi. The MBDA Scalp is a 560+ km range air to ground cruise missile, while the Meteor is currently the longest range air to air missile in operations. Both weapons outclass anything the Indian Air Force has in its arsenal currently, and are unanimously seen as a major evolutionary step in combat capability. A naval version of the SCALP is incidentally on offer to the Indian Navy too for its to-be-selected P75I submarines.

IAF pilots in France have had extensive interactions and briefings from the French Navy and Air Force on Rafale combat deployments over Libya and elsewhere. In this 2017 post, Livefist detailed the Rafale experience in combat theatres.

Weaponry arriving ahead of new jets is routine. Weapons storage facilities at Ambala have been ready since late last year, with safety certification complete. The IAF Rafale’s weapons will be combat deployable soon after the jets arrive. Training in France, both with the jets and on simulators, has included combat simulations with both weapon types. That training will continue in Ambala.

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At the heart of the training ecosystem coming with India’s Rafales is a set of room-sized computers built by Sogitec, a fully owned subsidiary of Dassault Aviation. Termed synthetic collective training, two Sogitec training centres are being installed at Ambala and Hasimara (Hasimara will house the second Rafale squadron), each equipped with two Rafale simulators for initial and hands on training, flight and Weapon Delivery and Navigation System (WDNS) procedure learning including repetition of complete missions with complex tactical environments, two Unit Level Instruction System (ULIS) self-service trainers and one Part Task Trainer (PTT) for guided or free-access training on a restricted number of key procedures. The Ambala training centre will additionally have Rafale Maintenance Trainer and Computer-based Trainer rooms.

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While the Ambala and Hasimara bases will be the IAF’s principal Rafale centres, the Gwalior Mirage 2000 station will be fully integrated right from the start for operations and cooperative training. The collective training and synthetic learning architecture being installed at Ambala and Hasimara will be linked directly to a similar module in Gwalior, being set up for the IAF’s upgraded Mirage 2000-5 fleet (several have been upgraded so far out of 51). This will allow pilots at the three bases to fly cooperative simulated missions using both aircraft types on a long list of existing and fresh combat scenarios. These will, of course, include area denial combat air patrol operations on the Chinese front and northern sectors, close air support and interdiction missions in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, precision strike missions along the Line of Control and cooperative reconnaissance missions/anti-surface missions on both of India’s seaboards. The experience of the Gwalior squadrons, coupled with the new tools coming with the Rafale will be a huge mutual boost to both bases, types and fleets. The upgraded Mirage 2000 jets also share key weapons coming with the Rafales — the MICA air to air missile.

Livefist has previously detailed the evolutionary technologies coming with the Indian Rafales.