Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

A Person

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Dec 1, 2017
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Which is better for SEAD/DEAD/deep strike in highly contested airspace?
A brain.

First you have to know how the airspace is contested. Enemy fighters? Long-range IADS ? Short-range manpads? All of those at once?

The main error that you should never make is assume you have a silver bullet that can work perfectly in all conditions so that you can just turn your brain off and stop respecting the enemy's ability to improvise and adapt.

The loss of an F-117 in Serbia will remain forever the best illustration of why you shouldn't do that. State of the art stealth aircraft vs. obsolete air defense system, so the Americans turned their brains off, got sloppy, and the Serbian air defense scored a win against all odds, just by being more clever than their lazy opponent which had stopped considering war as something dangerous.

So the way to do deep strike in a highly contested environment is to start by not assuming a forum post can contain a one-size-fits-all answer. The truth is you need to have as good as possible a picture of where the enemy is, what the enemy can do, and then figure out a way to bypass most of the enemy defense, surprise those that you cannot bypass, and strike, with what you have, regardless of what it is.

It's a lot more complex than just player card battle and thinking all you need is to have aces in your stack. It's a real fight, against a peer adversary what will make a difference will be your skills at strategy, tactics, and deception.
 

Herciv

Well-Known member
Nov 30, 2017
348
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Looks like no GaN though. And definitely no GaN for the radar, along with conformal arrays, until F5.
They are not speaking of such techno, only the result seems to be conform to what they were looking for.
But p12
Future radar and electronic warfare studies As a follow up to the CARAA (Capacités Accrues pour le Radar RBE2 à Antenne Active, increased capabilities for the active array RBE2 radar) and MELBAA (Modes et Exploitation Large Bande pour l’Antenne Active, wide band exploitation modes for the active array) studies, the scientifi c and technologic project TARAMMAA (Technologies et Architecture Radar MLU Multivoie à Antenne Active, multichannel, active array radar technologies and architecture mid-life upgrade) was launched in 2019 with the aim of researching innovative technical solutions for the future transmit/receive modules and for the future software and hardware architecture of the next generation of radars. “The idea behind this project is to reduce risks and continue progressing step by step towards the AESA radar that will eventually replace the current RBE2,” said General Reboul. “In order to do so, we are studying a revolutionary radar architecture, with some of the processing done in the array itself, and not in dedicated processing units. This is groundbreaking technology. Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology will be adopted for the antenna modules to ease the introduction of fully interleaved air-to-air and air-tosurface radar modes. “When used in conjunction with new algorithms and with new processors that will signifi cantly increase computing powers, these modules will provide exceptional detection ranges and an excellent robustness to jamming. “The Guerre Électronique Aéro 2025 project will help prepare the next evolution of the F4 and F5 standards of the Rafale’s electronic warfare suite. Within the Rafale programme, investments into the electronic warfare capabilities have always been a key priority, and they still are, to counter emerging and future threats.”
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Looks like no GaN though. And definitely no GaN for the radar, along with conformal arrays, until F5.
GaN for radar is not linked to a standard, it will happen without changing the standard, in plug and play like the AESA antenna that came before F3R or the DDM NG or the OSF IT.
Looking at what happened with Su-34s in Ukraine maybe US's strategy of stealth(passive) may prove more effective than French philosophy of flying very low and fast!

Which is better for SEAD/DEAD/deep strike in highly contested airspace: F-35 or Rafale? Your opinion?
1671123721069.jpeg

100 ft....600 kt
This does not leave much time for the Manpads​
 
Last edited:

halloweene

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
322
369
Paris
You are wrong the rafale uses radar for ground following. If you make a bet for something of value, I will get the french link. It may take me a half hour to find it on airdefense

You are also wrong about the hammer, it is better to google. Not that it matters, it couldn't get within 25km either. Damn those AEW&C

Operational
range
50 km (31 mi)-60 km (37 mi) at high altitude 15 km (9 mi) at low altitude[2][3]
Right for the 15 Kms sorry. Wrong about how Rafale do perform low altitude fly, i do not mind your french source. Rafale use 3D maps. Radar is there mostly to pervent accidents with unmarked items such as antennas etc.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,995
11,651
India
They are not speaking of such techno, only the result seems to be conform to what they were looking for.
But p12
Future radar and electronic warfare studies As a follow up to the CARAA (Capacités Accrues pour le Radar RBE2 à Antenne Active, increased capabilities for the active array RBE2 radar) and MELBAA (Modes et Exploitation Large Bande pour l’Antenne Active, wide band exploitation modes for the active array) studies, the scientifi c and technologic project TARAMMAA (Technologies et Architecture Radar MLU Multivoie à Antenne Active, multichannel, active array radar technologies and architecture mid-life upgrade) was launched in 2019 with the aim of researching innovative technical solutions for the future transmit/receive modules and for the future software and hardware architecture of the next generation of radars. “The idea behind this project is to reduce risks and continue progressing step by step towards the AESA radar that will eventually replace the current RBE2,” said General Reboul. “In order to do so, we are studying a revolutionary radar architecture, with some of the processing done in the array itself, and not in dedicated processing units. This is groundbreaking technology. Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology will be adopted for the antenna modules to ease the introduction of fully interleaved air-to-air and air-tosurface radar modes. “When used in conjunction with new algorithms and with new processors that will signifi cantly increase computing powers, these modules will provide exceptional detection ranges and an excellent robustness to jamming. “The Guerre Électronique Aéro 2025 project will help prepare the next evolution of the F4 and F5 standards of the Rafale’s electronic warfare suite. Within the Rafale programme, investments into the electronic warfare capabilities have always been a key priority, and they still are, to counter emerging and future threats.”

That's the part I read. It doesn't look like it's part of F4.2.

GaN for radar is not linked to a standard, it will happen without changing the standard, in plug and play like the AESA antenna that came before F3R or the DDM NG or the OSF IT.

The article is referring to making a whole new radar with GaN to replace RBE2. Too bad they don't mention the dates.

But, assuming how MRFA has been designed, something I pointed out years ago about red tape forcing us to buy the same version for decades, the split order may also mean a new version for the follow-on 60 jets. So 57 F4.2+ between 2030 and 2035, followed by the F5+ for the next 60 until 2040 or so.

Sadly, a lot of Rafale's advertised capabilities still seem to be on paper, even those for the F4.
 

Rajput Lion

Well-Known member
Sep 23, 2022
413
252
India
A brain.

First you have to know how the airspace is contested. Enemy fighters? Long-range IADS ? Short-range manpads? All of those at once?

The main error that you should never make is assume you have a silver bullet that can work perfectly in all conditions so that you can just turn your brain off and stop respecting the enemy's ability to improvise and adapt.

The loss of an F-117 in Serbia will remain forever the best illustration of why you shouldn't do that. State of the art stealth aircraft vs. obsolete air defense system, so the Americans turned their brains off, got sloppy, and the Serbian air defense scored a win against all odds, just by being more clever than their lazy opponent which had stopped considering war as something dangerous.

So the way to do deep strike in a highly contested environment is to start by not assuming a forum post can contain a one-size-fits-all answer. The truth is you need to have as good as possible a picture of where the enemy is, what the enemy can do, and then figure out a way to bypass most of the enemy defense, surprise those that you cannot bypass, and strike, with what you have, regardless of what it is.

It's a lot more complex than just player card battle and thinking all you need is to have aces in your stack. It's a real fight, against a peer adversary what will make a difference will be your skills at strategy, tactics, and deception.
This is an excellent post and analysis. Kudos.
GaN for radar is not linked to a standard, it will happen without changing the standard, in plug and play like the AESA antenna that came before F3R or the DDM NG or the OSF IT.

View attachment 25628
100 ft....600 kt
This does not leave much time for the Manpads​
I get you. But do you think this 100ft and 600kts is better than F-35's stealth in strike missions?
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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You'll see when NATO finally gets involved in Ukraine conflict (only a matter of time) the Rafale will be depending on us yankee cowboys for SEAD/DEAD just like Libya.
We have a 4x4 that is comfortable on tracks, but the Americans don't like tracks and when they go to war they usually redo the whole road and tarmac it. So afterwards we use the new roads, and it's true that it's more comfortable, but we don't ask for anything, the tracks suit us perfectly.
 
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Optimist

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Oct 31, 2021
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Before they rewrite the history of the F-111, with a mission from last century. What aircraft with a look-down radar from the 70's onwards, can't do terrain following?
Right for the 15 Kms sorry. Wrong about how Rafale do perform low altitude fly, i do not mind your french source. Rafale use 3D maps. Radar is there mostly to pervent accidents with unmarked items such as antennas etc.
They use 3d maps, OSF and a couple of pods at a higher alt. However the low level terrain following is done by radar. Google is your friend.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Before they rewrite the history of the F-111, with a mission from last century. What aircraft with a look-down radar from the 70's onwards, can't do terrain following?

They use 3d maps, OSF and a couple of pods at a higher alt. However the low level terrain following is done by radar. Google is your friend.
Ground following is common, but automatic ground following at high speed and very low altitude is specific to the Rafale.

Mode suivi de terrain :
Cette fonction peut s'effectuer via la lecture d'un fichier, et donc sans émission électromagnétique, ce qui favorise la discrétion de l'avion. 2 cartes sécurisées d'environ 300.000 km² permettent alors une navigation basse altitude par découpe du terrain sur 10 km en avant à tout juste 300 ft sol (voire 100ft).

A cela, le radar peut associer une cartographie 3D pour circuler en dehors du fichier mémorisé, si besoin.

Suivant le niveau de discrétion souhaité, le pilote peut choisir 3 options de vol : souple, moyen ou dur. Le niveau "dur" permet d'atteindre des vitesses bien supérieures aux Mirage 2000N/D, ainsi que des facteurs de charges plus importants ...

9 couloirs de navigation sont gérés en mode suivi de terrain.

Mode DBS : Doppler Beam Sharpenning.
Cette fonction permet de s'approcher d'un objectif à basse altitude, se démasquer très brièvement pour en établir la cartographie, puis travailler l'image ainsi mémorisée.


Translation

Terrain tracking mode:

This function can be carried out by reading a file, and thus without electromagnetic emission, which favours the discretion of the aircraft. 2 secured maps of approximately 300.000 km² allow then a low altitude navigation by cutting the terrain over 10 km in front of it at just 300 ft ground (even 100ft).

In addition, the radar can combine a 3D map to navigate outside the stored file, if required.

Depending on the level of stealth desired, the pilot can choose from three flight options: soft, medium or hard. The "hard" level allows for much higher speeds than the Mirage 2000N/D, as well as higher load factors...

9 navigation corridors are managed in terrain following mode.

DBS mode: Doppler Beam Sharpening.
This function allows you to approach a target at low altitude, unmask yourself very briefly to map it, then work on the stored image.
 

Optimist

Well-Known member
Oct 31, 2021
609
293
Australia
Ground following is common, but automatic ground following at high speed and very low altitude is specific to the Rafale.




Translation

Terrain tracking mode:

This function can be carried out by reading a file, and thus without electromagnetic emission, which favours the discretion of the aircraft. 2 secured maps of approximately 300.000 km² allow then a low altitude navigation by cutting the terrain over 10 km in front of it at just 300 ft ground (even 100ft).

In addition, the radar can combine a 3D map to navigate outside the stored file, if required.

Depending on the level of stealth desired, the pilot can choose from three flight options: soft, medium or hard. The "hard" level allows for much higher speeds than the Mirage 2000N/D, as well as higher load factors...

9 navigation corridors are managed in terrain following mode.

DBS mode: Doppler Beam Sharpening.
This function allows you to approach a target at low altitude, unmask yourself very briefly to map it, then work on the stored image.

as I said and your article reads similar, keep googling. The map, osf and pods work at a higher alt, to see from your article 10k in front, 300ft alt in your case. The 100ft in (100) is done with radar and a lot of planes do. You guys live in a bubble of delusion.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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as I said and your article reads similar, keep googling. The map, osf and pods work at a higher alt, to see from your article 10k in front, 300ft alt in your case. The 100ft in (100) is done with radar and a lot of planes do. You guys live in a bubble of delusion.
Where do you see that the 100 ft is done with the Radar?
It's not a lot of plane doing it, it's a lot of pilots 😃 Here it's done by Rafale.
 

Aniruddha

Member
Oct 3, 2019
238
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Mumbai
Good news..After 2030, the frogs won't have to keep lying about the Rafale's SEAD/DEAD capabilities.

If we somehow get the French onboard with integrating Rudram-1 and Rudram-2 onto our Rafales, we will have SEAD/DEAD capabilities much before the French and rest of the Rafale operators.
That will boost the export potential of those two ARMs aswell.