Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Hydra

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The radar OEM takes the lead, not the missile OEM. Missile codes, data and schematics are supposed to be provided to the radar OEM. How will MBDA integrate a missile without knowing anything about the radar? MBDA attempted to steal our tech. We simply didn't fall for it.

Anyway, DRDO is pushing for Astra Mk3. They don't want the IAF to choose the Meteor for any other aircraft apart from Rafale.
Its like some one saying christiano Ronaldo stealing techniques from Sunil Chhetri.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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MBDA doesn't make radars (besides the seekers for their missiles, obviously). But they worried about India stealing their missile technology. That's what's funny about cooperation when neither side trusts the other.

You do not need to know everything about the missile to integrate it with a radar, but you need to know everything about the radar to integrate a missile. India was not expecting production ToT or the full suite of source codes of the Meteor. The Israelis and Russians do not give such things up either, neither do they have access to the Bars and Uttam radars respectively. So, all that was necessary was the information needed to integrate it with the radar, which also requires some joint work, and it could also be done from scratch, without giving away true secrets of the missile. Plus both Meteor and Uttam use NATO standard, so it wasn't a difficult task in the first place. MBDA simply tried to use the Meteor as leverage to shamelessly try and steal Indian tech.

It works the other way round too. When the Rafale comes in for integration of new Indian weapons, including the Astra class missiles, we are not gonna ask Thales for full know-how and know-why of the radar and EW suite, rather we are gonna share work and get it done with the appropriate amount of information exchange necessary while protecting both our IPs, which is how it's supposed to happen.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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A corollary of all these games le francais play & tantrums they throw is that it seems they're out of the Project -75 (I) submarine project . Apparently MoD has restarted talks with the Koreans , the Spanish & surprise surprise ze Germans . No French or Russians ( for obvious reasons ) mentioned till date .

Apparently Naval Groups tactics & co operation with MDL & IN during the Scorpene project , tactics as detailed here by the Norwegian member & as the Australians later testified & voted with their feet , so enamored the Indian establishment that this decision shouldn't come as a surprise. Was just wondering if anyone's holding Naval Group's stock , how much is it trading at as compared to same time last year.

Sigh ! How things change in a year . I'm sure there's still Indonesia with palm oil to barter for submarines purchased .
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Sigh ! How things change in a year . I'm sure there's still Indonesia with palm oil to barter for submarines purchased .
55443107-41501724.jpg
 

randomradio

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Man, analysis isn't everyone's cup of tea.

The RFP extension may allow Germany to come back, but that's not enough time for the French and Russians due to lack of operational AIP. Only Korea, Spain and Germany have functional AIP. Germany wanted extra time to design their India-specific sub, and it's possible the 6 months extension will do the trick. They originally wanted a 12 months RFP period, and the delay seems to have given them enough time. But the German reentry is just speculation for now.

Otoh, France and Russia need years to prove their AIP tech. Their exit has nothing to do with politics or previous history.
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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Man, analysis isn't everyone's cup of tea.

The RFP extension may allow Germany to come back, but that's not enough time for the French and Russians due to lack of operational AIP. Only Korea, Spain and Germany have functional AIP. Germany wanted extra time to design their India-specific sub, and it's possible the 6 months extension will do the trick. They originally wanted a 12 months RFP period, and the delay seems to have given them enough time. But the German reentry is just speculation for now.

Otoh, France and Russia need years to prove their AIP tech. Their exit has nothing to do with politics or previous history.

AIP should be lithium batteries?
Otherwise Mesma is there in French subs?
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Infographic dated Apr 21 of financial results dated 2020. The French submarine deal was cancelled late 2021 by Australia & as of now the French haven't been re approached to join discussions by the IN . This could well change in the days to come but the chances of Naval Group bagging the project isn't great going by the action & reactions of the IN in the recent past .
 
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_Anonymous_

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AIP should be lithium batteries?
Otherwise Mesma is there in French subs?
Good observations . The plan for 24 conventional submarines by 2030 was released by the IN in 2000 IIRC during the ABV administration . The RFI under the Project 75 (I) was first released in 2007 & since then there has been a lot of to & fro with this project.

Long short story , the IN released the latest RFI in 2017 to France , Japan , SK , Russia , Sweden , Germany & Spain freezing on the FC as AIP & a working one at that in spite of the fact that barring 2 none of the others had any experience in such a type of AIP .

Barring Spain & Japan all the other countries responded with Spain submitting it's RFI in 2019 on extension of the enquiry period upon India's request.

Infact, only tkMS (ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems), Germany and Daewoo South Korea have a proven fuel cell system, with the latter having been derived from the former.



Apparently the FC was chosen as the AIP of choice by the IN as the other AIP systems had limitations & with Li Ion gaining traction it was seen by the IN as technology of the future which in turn begs the question why were the others invited to submit their bids .

Spain is another curious choice as they've only just certified their FC as operational in 2020 with their second submarine in the process of getting it's FC powered AIP with work having commenced as late as in 2021 .

Apart from this piece of information , Spain has also had huge issues with it's submarine building program & had to involve General Dynamics Electric Boat as a consultant with the program being delayed by a decade .


The S80 class (or Isaac Peral class) are AIP (air independent propulsion) submarines currently under construction for the Spanish Navy. Four boats have been ordered, all are under construction by Navantia at its yard in Cartagena. Construction of the submarines had been suspended in early 2013, when it was found that the first submarine in the series, the Isaac Peral, was 75 to 100 tons too heavy relative to its length. General Dynamics Electric Boat was brought in by Navantia through a Foreign Military Sale in 2013 to tackle the weight distribution issues. Each submarine has been stretched with a 10 meters ring to better distribute the weight of the submarine. The intended delivery date of the first submarine is December 2022.




That's not all , the South Korean collaboration with Indonesia has also run into rough weather with Germany refusing to help in the face of teething problems faced by the Indonesian Navy to commission these submarines as DSME hasn't received relevant authorisation from TKMS to re export the latter's submarine technology .

Post in thread 'Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions' Kalvari Class Submarines - Updates & Discussions

To sum up the choice seems narrowed down only to TKMS Germany . I don't think the IN is interested in Russian conventional subs anymore . SK & Spain have chequered records . Japan didn't respond. Sweden opted out & wasn't re invited which leaves out only France . The Scorpene saga being still fresh in the minds of IN & MDL , your guess is as good as mine as to whether they'd be re invited.

There's a wonderful story to be told connecting all the dots I've assembled here . Alas ! I'm a poor storyteller which reminds me of PKS - the original master & brings me to the point that I haven't visited his blog since March 2021.

Let me check what the original storyteller has to say about this sorry saga. He usually has the right information for this kind of stuff. For everything else there's the in house version .
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Rafale Meets Rafale! Indian Air Chief Marshal’s ‘Game-Changer’ Visit To Greece Could Turn The Tide Against Pakistan & Turkey

The Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari, is likely to pay a visit to Greece, which could be a game-changer move for New Delhi and Athens in terms of countering Pakistan and Turkey, as per recent media reports in India.

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Greece being a part of the US-led NATO alliance, could be of great tactical help to the IAF, as the Hellenic Air Force (HAF) operates Rafale jets, also operated by the IAF, and, more importantly, the F-16 C/D that the Pakistan Air Force employs.

“The Hellenic Air Force has acquired both planes and will have a clear idea of the operational aspects of a Rafale vs. F16 C/D matchup,” high-level sources told Indian news outlet – Times Now.

At present, F-16C/Ds are the best fighters in possession of Pakistan. The country also operates F-16A/Bs, but they are of a previous generation.

Therefore, HAF could share critical information with the IAF on the relative performance of both the Rafale and F-16C/D, which could benefit the Indian military in any potential future conflict with Pakistan.

Greece has a long-running dispute with its neighbor and NATO ally, Turkey, over territorial claims in the Aegean Sea and energy exploration rights in the eastern Mediterranean.

The Aegean Sea, spanning over two lakh square kilometers, has more than a thousand islands, almost all Greek, and some within two kilometers of mainland Turkey or the Turkish west coast.

Ankara accuses Athens of violating treaties by maintaining a military presence on the Greek islands off the coast of Turkey. In contrast, Greece claims that Turkey has deliberately misinterpreted the treaties, adding that it is acting under international law to defend the islands against Turkish aggression.

At the same time, Turkey has a strategic alliance with Pakistan, as part of which the militaries of both countries cooperate very closely, posing a threat to India’s security interests.

Therefore, Greece and India have a shared interest in collaborating on defense matters.

Turkey’s Drone Threat – Headache For India, Greece


In recent years, Turkey has emerged as a formidable drone power through the indigenous development of advanced technologies and the possession of capable systems and platforms. It concerns both Greece and India.

As EurAsian Times reported recently, Turkey’s drones, particularly the famous Bayraktar TB2s, have been causing a ‘headache’ for Greece by carrying out regular flights at medium and high altitudes along the entire length of the western coast to closely monitor the movements of Greek warships and defenses on Greek islands in the Aegean Sea.

The HAF scrambles its F-16s to intercept these drones, but retired Greek military officials warn that if Turkey increases the number of drones and the number of flights, it could saturate the Greek air defenses.

Meanwhile, Turkey has also been exporting its drones to various countries. The effectiveness and efficiency of Turkish-made drones have decisively influenced the outcome on the battlefields of Syria, Libya, and Azerbaijan in favor of Ankara’s allies.

Likewise, even India has a reason to worry about Turkey’s drone prowess, as its arch-rival, Pakistan, is also believed to have acquired Bayraktar TB2 drones. Pakistan reportedly could have acquired six Bayraktar drones from Turkey in March 2021, per a previous EurAsian Times report.

Imagery from Air Force Base Murid, #Pakistan shows a likely Baykar Bayraktar TB2 UAV onsite (Shared on Twitter by Damien Symon)
Also, in May, an OSINT analyst Damien Symon posted satellite imagery of a Pakistan Air Force Base in Murid, Punjab province, purportedly showing Bayraktar TB2 unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV).

Interestingly in March, Pakistan Air Force’s Public Relations Department posted a video depicting its progress, showcasing various aircraft and weapon systems within the PAF’s fleet, including the Bayraktar TB2 and the new Turkish-made Akinci combat drone, which is considered a successor to Bayraktar.

Areas Of Cooperation Between India & Greece

Greece and India can cooperate on anti-drone defense technologies to counter the drone threat posed by Turkey and Pakistan.

To begin with, Greece could share the data on flight characteristics and radar signature of Turkish-made drones with India, as the Greek military must have gathered significant intelligence on Turkish drones that regularly fly over Greek islands.

Considering that drones are small in size and difficult to detect on radars, such information could prove valuable for India in the event of a potential conflict with Pakistan in which Turkish-made drones could be employed.

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Rafale Fighter Via Dassault Aviation
Furthermore, the militaries of both the countries could initiate joint military drills, which could involve mock combat scenarios between Indian Rafales and Greek F-16s or exercises simulating drone threats and employment of counter-drone solutions.

Veteran IAF fighter pilot Squadron Leader Vijainder K. Thakur told EurAsian Times that joint exercises with Greece could provide India with “greater insight into the combat capabilities of the F-16, and the best practices adopted by the Hellenic Air Force to counter the threat from Turkey.”

Thakur further noted that the IAF can also gain insight into “NATO best practices for F-16 operations.”

Greece also stands to gain a lot from India. For example, India operates the Russian-made S-400 air defense system, also used by Turkey. Military exercises with India could enable the HAF to test its aircraft against the training squadron of the S-400 system.

Moreover, Greece can also purchase the Indian-made BrahMos cruise missile that could be integrated with its Rafale aircraft.

Last year, the Greek news portal Pentapostagma suggested that the BrahMos missile could be a formidable weapon when integrated with French Rafales, which, coupled with the ability of Greek pilots, would cause panic in Ankara.

According to a previous EurAsian Times report, a smaller and lighter version of the BrahMos, the BrahMos-NG (Next Generation), is under development, and it would be compatible with the French-made Rafale.

The partnership between India and Greece could be a win-win situation for both countries, especially for Greece, which will have a new powerful ally in India to counter the Turkey-Pakistan nexus.
 

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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A corollary of all these games le francais play & tantrums they throw is that it seems they're out of the Project -75 (I) submarine project . Apparently MoD has restarted talks with the Koreans , the Spanish & surprise surprise ze Germans . No French or Russians ( for obvious reasons ) mentioned till date .

Apparently Naval Groups tactics & co operation with MDL & IN during the Scorpene project , tactics as detailed here by the Norwegian member & as the Australians later testified & voted with their feet , so enamored the Indian establishment that this decision shouldn't come as a surprise. Was just wondering if anyone's holding Naval Group's stock , how much is it trading at as compared to same time last year.

Sigh ! How things change in a year . I'm sure there's still Indonesia with palm oil to barter for submarines purchased .
With India, all is possible until the last minute.
I remembered, some long years ago, the Rafale was out and EF2000 rumored to be the MRCA1 winner...
 
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RASALGHUL

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You may call it whatever you want but J20 is not a 5th generation fighter. Fact is it inferior to even Rafale. Ne more thing IAF had claimed that they were able to track J20 even with su30mki, with Rafales they will be able to track it passively at huge ranges.... 😊
Stop, this Nonsense. J20s had Radar Reflectors On them. I, Know you might be trolling but some newbie can Seriously drink this Kool-aid.
 
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Optimist

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