Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,248
810
California
It isn't when you consider most of what China has is basically flankers. 70% of the plaaf is just flankers that are inferior to the mki the rest being su-35's and j-16's.
The problem for India is that chicoms know the Flankers capability and weakness. I doubt chicoms will use Flankers against Indian Flankers when they can use J-10s and J-20s which practice a lot against chicoms Flankers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hydra

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,616
1,025
Delhi
The problem for India is that chicoms know the Flankers capability and weakness. I doubt chicoms will use Flankers against Indian Flankers when they can use J-10s and J-20s which practice a lot against chicoms Flankers.
That's a problem j-10's also perform exceptionally well against flankers. It's only the weakness in Chinese radar tech that gives us some breathing space. Majority of j-10's have very bad radar(worse than mig 29's radar) The j-10C's(aesa upgraded) though are a huge problem. Right now they could only send a squadron worth of j-20's that the Rafale's will be able to handle probably. An indian f-35 purchase will only become a reality if the pakistanis get their hands on the fc-31. Right now the focus seems to be the Rafales.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Domobran7

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,363
1,070
France
The problem for India is that chicoms know the Flankers capability and weakness. I doubt chicoms will use Flankers against Indian Flankers when they can use J-10s and J-20s which practice a lot against chicoms Flankers.
They know it on the kinematic point of view.
If you fit a brand new AESA radar and potent air to air medium or long range missiles, it's another beast.
 

Optimist

Active member
Oct 31, 2021
463
226
Australia
They know it on the kinematic point of view.
If you fit a brand new AESA radar and potent air to air medium or long range missiles, it's another beast.
I think this is the first time I've agreed with you. It would take a lot of work and wont be cheap. A western tech upgrade would benefit. It would need someone who wants to work with Russia looking over their shoulder. Not an easy thing and would limit the tech to commercial off the shelf
 
Last edited:

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,917
1,387
Mumbai
That's a problem j-10's also perform exceptionally well against flankers. It's only the weakness in Chinese radar tech that gives us some breathing space. Majority of j-10's have very bad radar(worse than mig 29's radar) The j-10C's(aesa upgraded) though are a huge problem. Right now they could only send a squadron worth of j-20's that the Rafale's will be able to handle probably. An indian f-35 purchase will only become a reality if the pakistanis get their hands on the fc-31. Right now the focus seems to be the Rafales.
If J10 performs exceptionally well against flankers,then j10s are really a potent platform. The 36 J10c of PAF is a good deterrent against our 36 rafales. Biggest worry is will be on Tejas Mk1,1a. It will be a target practice for J10c against Tejas Mk1&1a.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,363
1,070
France
I think this is the first time I've agreed with you. It would take a lot of work and wont be cheap. A western tech upgrade would benefit. It would need someone who wants to work with Russia looking over their shoulder. Not an easy thing and would limit the tech to commercial off the shelf
Never say "never" my dear....

One solution may be the indigenous UTTAM radar. With a such big noise, even if the indian T/R modules are not among the best of the world, it is probably possible to built a very decent radar. To see how electrical supply the Su30 can produce and how many an so big AESA radar need.
But you don't only have to remove the radar : you must adapt the weapon system around this radar, check if the electronic couter system is not jamed by the radar and the contrary.... it's note an easy task.
j-10's also perform exceptionally well against flankers
You have some source ? If it is a chinese one, it may be a blur minds.
 

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
2,418
2,603
Bangalore
Add j20s.
You may call it whatever you want but J20 is not a 5th generation fighter. Fact is it inferior to even Rafale. Ne more thing IAF had claimed that they were able to track J20 even with su30mki, with Rafales they will be able to track it passively at huge ranges.... 😊
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Adm_Kenobi

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,248
810
California
They know it on the kinematic point of view.
If you fit a brand new AESA radar and potent air to air medium or long range missiles, it's another beast.
MKI's have AESA yet? To my knowledge they still have a PESA while J-16's, J-10's and J-20's have gone AESA. I'm not saying chicom AESA's are anywhere near capability of wester fighters but I'm pretty sure they are more capable than MKI PESA.

So I guess J-16s are more capable than MKIs and the only fighter that is probably more capable than J-10s and J-16s are Rafale which they only have 36. See where I'm going? IAF is far behind PLAAF and in a clonfict IAF would be outmatched. The way things are going in this world a conflict between the two is more possible than ever before.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hydra

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,917
1,387
Mumbai
You may call it whatever you want but J20 is not a 5th generation fighter. Fact is it inferior to even Rafale. Ne more thing IAF had claimed that they were able to track J20 even with su30mki, with Rafales they will be able to track it passively at huge ranges.... 😊
It is a gen 5 fighter. Simple thumb rule for an aircraft to be a fifth gen fighter is forth gen technology with stealth. I wanna tell one thing,if J10c is fourth gen ,then no way J20 lacking gen 4 technology,and it's stealth too .
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,956
India
MKI's have AESA yet? To my knowledge they still have a PESA while J-16's, J-10's and J-20's have gone AESA. I'm not saying chicom AESA's are anywhere near capability of wester fighters but I'm pretty sure they are more capable than MKI PESA.

So I guess J-16s are more capable than MKIs and the only fighter that is probably more capable than J-10s and J-16s are Rafale which they only have 36. See where I'm going? IAF is far behind PLAAF and in a clonfict IAF would be outmatched. The way things are going in this world a conflict between the two is more possible than ever before.

It's not that simple though. While the MKI's radar is inferior to the more modern PLAAF fighters in terminology, the MKI's radar is still a hybrid PESA, which means it behaves like an AESA radar when performing just one role. It has similar ECCM capabilities as an AESA too. The MKI's radar is software-defined as well, no different from AESAs.

Plus most of PLAAF fighters are easily detected and tracked by the MKI. For example, a Chinese Flanker can be detected and tracked from over 300Km away, so it doesn't make much of a difference even if the Chinese can track the MKI from 500Km away. Both can see each other outside the range of missiles. Similarly, the J-10 is no different from the F-16, even it can be detected and tracked from nearly 200Km away.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Adm_Kenobi

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,616
1,025
Delhi
Never say "never" my dear....

One solution may be the indigenous UTTAM radar. With a such big noise, even if the indian T/R modules are not among the best of the world, it is probably possible to built a very decent radar. To see how electrical supply the Su30 can produce and how many an so big AESA radar need.
But you don't only have to remove the radar : you must adapt the weapon system around this radar, check if the electronic couter system is not jamed by the radar and the contrary.... it's note an easy task.

You have some source ? If it is a chinese one, it may be a blur minds.
The super Sukhoi upgrade is the only real way to solve the difference between the plaaf. Our radars are smaller and lighter and have similar performance to chinese radars too. But only 85 fighters might get the upgrade. They will be as good as f-15EX after the upgrade and after Uttam we might be able to integrate the meteor too.
images - 2022-08-06T155904.163.jpeg
images - 2022-08-06T155856.939.jpeg
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,616
1,025
Delhi
It's not that simple though. While the MKI's radar is inferior to the more modern PLAAF fighters in terminology, the MKI's radar is still a hybrid PESA, which means it behaves like an AESA radar when performing just one role. It has similar ECCM capabilities as an AESA too. The MKI's radar is software-defined as well, no different from AESAs.

Plus most of PLAAF fighters are easily detected and tracked by the MKI. For example, a Chinese Flanker can be detected and tracked from over 300Km away, so it doesn't make much of a difference even if the Chinese can track the MKI from 500Km away. Both can see each other outside the range of missiles. Similarly, the J-10 is no different from the F-16, even it can be detected and tracked from nearly 200Km away.
The j-10 is reported to even threaten the j-20 in exercises. It does seem to have a 0.1-1 sqm RCS. I don't know how will the mki find a firing solution without coming inside the range of the NEZ of the pl-15. Unless we don't get astra mk 2 it's going to be a huge problem.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bon Plan

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,616
1,025
Delhi
If J10 performs exceptionally well against flankers,then j10s are really a potent platform. The 36 J10c of PAF is a good deterrent against our 36 rafales. Biggest worry is will be on Tejas Mk1,1a. It will be a target practice for J10c against Tejas Mk1&1a.
It really isn't. The pl-15's they will get are pretty mediocre. The Rafales are far more advanced and loaded than pakistani j--10CP's. They don't seem to have the MAWS too. I'm more worried about the Chinese j-10's that @xxxx posted which seemed to have maws and internal jammers. The tejas will be within similar ranges of each other. Both have similar RCS of 0.1-1 sqm . Mk1a would actually fair quite well against the j-10c's as much as people want to dismiss it. They have similar RCS the only problem being the j-10 has a superior bvr missile although the i-derby-er works on the same principle to the pl-15. We definitely need maws for the tejas atleast.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,956
India
The j-10 is reported to even threaten the j-20 in exercises.

That's not very heartening news for the Chinese. I think they are referring to WVR.

It does seem to have a 0.1-1 sqm RCS. I don't know how will the mki find a firing solution without coming inside the range of the NEZ of the pl-15. Unless we don't get astra mk 2 it's going to be a huge problem.

I-Derby ER and Astra family.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,616
1,025
Delhi
That's not very heartening news for the Chinese. I think they are referring to WVR
It was actually an all aspect fight. The j-10 wasn't detected until very close to the j-20. There's some golden eagle exercise held by the Chinese. Although the j-20 won the exchange it was implying that j-10 actually came pretty close to the j-20 before being detected. Atleast that's what I read.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,956
India
It was actually an all aspect fight. The j-10 wasn't detected until very close to the j-20. There's some golden eagle exercise held by the Chinese. Although the j-20 won the exchange it was implying that j-10 actually came pretty close to the j-20 before being detected. Atleast that's what I read.

So, if a 4th gen can get close to the J-20, that's trouble for the J-20.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bon Plan

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,671
1,586
India
The super Sukhoi upgrade is the only real way to solve the difference between the plaaf. Our radars are smaller and lighter and have similar performance to chinese radars too. But only 85 fighters might get the upgrade. They will be as good as f-15EX after the upgrade and after Uttam we might be able to integrate the meteor too.View attachment 24225View attachment 24226

Before the upgrade of 85 aircraft s can be finished, a btach of 85 would have retired, SFDR will be in operation.,
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,917
1,387
Mumbai
The super Sukhoi upgrade is the only real way to solve the difference between the plaaf. Our radars are smaller and lighter and have similar performance to chinese radars too. But only 85 fighters might get the upgrade. They will be as good as f-15EX after the upgrade and after Uttam we might be able to integrate the meteor too.View attachment 24225View attachment 24226
AFAIK EX is similar to Rafale when comes to EWs ,no way india inventing something similar to spectra in near future to incorporate inside mki. We may see an AESA radar,MAWs/IR warning suit ,upgraded IRST, upgraded mission computers & probably some jammers in super Sukhoi upgradation program. Pretty basic upgrade by today's standards.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Bon Plan