Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
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Mumbai
It's not a question of technology. It is harder to study and produce a small engine than a bigger one.
France simply has no need of such an engine.
No, low bipass engine with comparable thrust figure of a high bipass engine is extremely difficult to master.

Only yankees had that technology with working example, probably Japanese will be the second nation to develop such technology.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
Why don't you use it for the LCA if it is so good?

It's like the F-35, the specs are ambitious but the plane doesn't work.

It was a silly discussion, so I joined in.

But we are using it for drones. The engine works fine, we screwed up the afterburner. Also, as per SAFRAN and GTRE, it can be used on LCA Mk1, it's merely too late. But it's still interesting, our very first engine will be used on high end UCAVs.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
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Why don't french use Scorpian class if its soo good?
This is mainly because we reserve better equipment for ourselves: the Scorpene is a conventional submarine and France only uses nuclear submarines. Do you have a better national turbofan than the Kaveri for your LCA?
Why do french surrender so often even in Africa? There are so many eternal questions like this.
This is bad faith and a distortion of events. We came to help Mali at their request at a time when Bamako was about to be taken by the Jihadists. After that, for several years we helped them to re-establish legality in their country, and the military operations we carried out there caused us to lose 53 men, and instead of being grateful for this, we feel that we are no longer welcome, especially since the coup d'état that installed an undemocratic government that prefers Wagner's militias to the international force under UN control. Under these conditions it is normal that we stop our mission in Mali, even if we continue it in the democratic border countries that ask us to. Calling it a "French surrender" shows your bias.
 
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_merlin_

Member
Nov 2, 2020
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IN
Why don't you use it for the LCA if it is so good?

It's like the F-35, the specs are ambitious but the plane doesn't work.
It is overweight for one. Does not provide enough wet thrust as well. Fixed problems need to be certified as fixed which is not possible without a testbed which we don't have and now the Russia one is out for the near and medium term.
It was a silly discussion, so I joined in.

But we are using it for drones. The engine works fine, we screwed up the afterburner. Also, as per SAFRAN and GTRE, it can be used on LCA Mk1, it's merely too late. But it's still interesting, our very first engine will be used on high end UCAVs.
0.16 bypass ratio makes it more like a pure turbojet. Bypass ratio is kind of meaningless in this context.

It can be used on LCA1 but only as a TD, not operationally as its underpowered for Tejas and overweight as well. Plus confidence in putting it into LCA is lacking to put it mildly. There is no push from GTRE to test the full up Kaveri on a flying testbed which would be the first step to get confidence.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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India
It is overweight for one. Does not provide enough wet thrust as well. Fixed problems need to be certified as fixed which is not possible without a testbed which we don't have and now the Russia one is out for the near and medium term.

0.16 bypass ratio makes it more like a pure turbojet. Bypass ratio is kind of meaningless in this context.

It can be used on LCA1 but only as a TD, not operationally as its underpowered for Tejas and overweight as well. Plus confidence in putting it into LCA is lacking to put it mildly. There is no push from GTRE to test the full up Kaveri on a flying testbed which would be the first step to get confidence.

Kaveri has pretty much the same dry thrust rating as the F404, so it will meet requirements for LCA Mk1. Let's not forget that the Kaveri is flat rated, so at higher altitudes, the thrust reduction is much lower, making it better than the F404, in context. It can deliver the same thrust as it does at sea level even at 15-20k ft altitude, the F404 can't do that. Also, Kaveri's public rating is at ISA+15/20. And it won't be overweight with Gen 3 SCBs.

Right now, flight testing for the dry thrust variant meant for IUSAV is on hold due to the war. And it's unclear if FUFA will be supersonic, and whether that will be achieved via supercruise or afterburners or a combination of both, but we may see a more completed Kaveri in this case.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
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Who started with cocky questions here? "Bad faith" that's cute.
It wasn't a cocky question, I could have said that the examples I took were all operational engines unlike the Kaveri which wasn't, but I thought it would be better for the reader to realise this themselves rather than make a nasty remark. Besides, it was worth a full description of the reasons for the situation from _merlin_
 

Tatvamasi

Senior member
Jan 5, 2018
1,175
1,202
India
It wasn't a cocky question, I could have said that the examples I took were all operational engines unlike the Kaveri which wasn't, but I thought it would be better for the reader to realise this themselves rather than make a nasty remark. Besides, it was worth a full description of the reasons for the situation from _merlin_
You don't have to point to some other user for justification. His answer is as outdated as french relevance in Africa.

And also, I wanted to tell the readers how french is another gora with 'white man's burden' complex. Thanks for your Mali reply.
It is overweight for one.
Its been 5 years since they reached the target weight (~1050kg) and thrust. People still giving out the same reasonings.
 

_merlin_

Member
Nov 2, 2020
12
7
IN
You don't have to point to some other user for justification. His answer is as outdated as french relevance in Africa.

And also, I wanted to tell the readers how french is another gora with 'white man's burden' complex. Thanks for your Mali reply.

Its been 5 years since they reached the target weight (~1050kg) and thrust. People still giving out the same reasonings.
Please point to sources that say target weight has been achieved and I will update my knowledge. For now I will stick to my stand that target weight has not been achieved.
 

_merlin_

Member
Nov 2, 2020
12
7
IN
Kaveri has pretty much the same dry thrust rating as the F404, so it will meet requirements for LCA Mk1. Let's not forget that the Kaveri is flat rated, so at higher altitudes, the thrust reduction is much lower, making it better than the F404, in context. It can deliver the same thrust as it does at sea level even at 15-20k ft altitude, the F404 can't do that. Also, Kaveri's public rating is at ISA+15/20. And it won't be overweight with Gen 3 SCBs.

Right now, flight testing for the dry thrust variant meant for IUSAV is on hold due to the war. And it's unclear if FUFA will be supersonic, and whether that will be achieved via supercruise or afterburners or a combination of both, but we may see a more completed Kaveri in this case.
What about wet thrust ratings? It had not achieved it due to afterburner issues (screech) and after they had resolved I didn't see any news item stating that designed wet thrust has been achieved. Even that is less than F404 wet thrust by quite a few kNs.

Also Gen 3 SCBs haven't been qualified, please point me to news sources that say otherwise.

GTRE themselves seem to be not too keen on taking Kaveri to its logical conclusion.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,564
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India
What about wet thrust ratings? It had not achieved it due to afterburner issues (screech) and after they had resolved I didn't see any news item stating that designed wet thrust has been achieved. Even that is less than F404 wet thrust by quite a few kNs.

Also Gen 3 SCBs haven't been qualified, please point me to news sources that say otherwise.

GTRE themselves seem to be not too keen on taking Kaveri to its logical conclusion.

For now the focus is on the dry thrust variant. SAFRAN was supposed to help certify both types, dunno what's the plan with the wet thrust variant, probably lack of resources. But for now it's irrelevant due to the focus on IUSAV, plus the fact that HAL chose F404 over Kaveri due to the delays. Plus it was supposed to be tested on an Indian FTB, but that's on hold. Basically the lack of an Indian FTB has delayed the execution of the wet thrust variant, GTRE wanted a Mig-29.

The dry thrust engine has completed undergoing high altitude simulation trials, it will be taken to Russia for flight testing once the war is over.

The dry thrust variant is of extremely high priority, even higher than AMCA's new engine. It comes with significant design changes to boot, like a new inlet fan design, two-stream air outlet, fluid thrust vectoring, higher tolerances, greater surge protection and so on, of course new hot parts. There's also a new FADEC. And it's all 100% indigneous.