Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Picdelamirand-oil

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Both sides blackmailing each other.
Dassault never blackmails, it may seem like blackmail, but the reality is that Dassault is faithful to certain principles on which it never gives in, whatever the consequences. The need for a true prime contractor responsible for all the consequences of his decisions on important programmes is one of these principles. There can be no parity at the head of a programme.
 

A Person

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Don't be surprised if nothing comes out of the entire exercise.
That's the kind of things we're used to with India.

Until there's a flareup with Pakistan or China and then the babucracy is sidelined in favor of emergency purchases.
@Picdelamirand-oil what does it means? You will only upgrade Rafale and will not pursue FCAS?
We've been saying for a while that the FCAS was a stillborn project due to German shenanigans. You can't build a project with a partner that insists on renegotiating everything every three weeks.
Both sides blackmailing each other.

How is that blackmail? On the French side the only request is to respect the terms that were agreed on initially. On the German side however it's full-on blackmail since they say "if you don't give in to our every last-minute change of terms, we're gonna buy the F-35 instead" but by all means, please do buy your precious F-35 and stop wasting our time with this mockery of partnership.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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“Dassault is not ready to accept Airbus as a partner on equal terms,” he told Defense News. “They are saying, ‘We’ll do FCAS, but only by our rules.’”

With Dassault’s export order books for its Rafale fighter full, the company may see less reason to agree on an FCAS fighter and focus on upgrades for its own jet instead, Brandl argued. In that sense, German talk of of an F-35 buy may serve as a fall-back option, he added.

@Picdelamirand-oil what does it means? You will only upgrade Rafale and will not pursue FCAS?
We will make FCAS with India.
 

_Anonymous_

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That's the kind of things we're used to with India.

Until there's a flareup with Pakistan or China and then the babucracy is sidelined in favor of emergency purchases.
Unlike the need for more Rafales for the IAF, there's no pressing imperative for the IN at the moment. Just a month back the IN chief publicly declared that the TEDBF would be the only acquisition on the cards as far as future plans goes. Then out of the blue comes this development. Make out of it what you will.
 
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randomradio

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How is that blackmail? On the French side the only request is to respect the terms that were agreed on initially. On the German side however it's full-on blackmail since they say "if you don't give in to our every last-minute change of terms, we're gonna buy the F-35 instead" but by all means, please do buy your precious F-35 and stop wasting our time with this mockery of partnership.

Both sides not giving ground and pushing for impossible alternatives is pretty much blackmail. The Germans are simply a bit more outgoing with theirs.

You are not looking at this from the French govt's perspective. They want partnership, the German govt want partnership, but it's obvious that a company like Dassault will want to go it alone, more moolah for them. But I understand Dassault's perspective on this.

The French govt is the victim in all this. If Dassault doesn't agree, it's the French govt that foots the entire bill.
 

randomradio

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It will cost them less than if they had to pay half the bill resulting from cooperation with Germany and on top of that they will have a better product.

That will be the end result though, about 15 years down the line. In the beginning the program will start with a realistic budget. IIRC it's €4.3B each until 2027.

What is a problem for me is companies with little to no experience are heading some of the pillars.
 

A Person

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Both sides not giving ground and pushing for impossible alternatives is pretty much blackmail. The Germans are simply a bit more outgoing with theirs.

You are not looking at this from the French govt's perspective. They want partnership, the German govt want partnership, but it's obvious that a company like Dassault will want to go it alone, more moolah for them. But I understand Dassault's perspective on this.

The French govt is the victim in all this. If Dassault doesn't agree, it's the French govt that foots the entire bill.
The thing is that we have given them ground, again and again and again. And every time the result was that they asked for more ground. At some point you've gotta stop.

The Germans do not want partnership. The relationship of a con artist with his mark is not a partnership.

That will be the end result though, about 15 years down the line. In the beginning the program will start with a realistic budget. IIRC it's €4.3B each until 2027.

What is a problem for me is companies with little to no experience are heading some of the pillars.
Look into how much the UK, Germany, Italy, and Spain each paid for the Typhoon program. Make the sum total of all four countries' investment. Then compare with how much France paid for the Rafale program. That should show you two things:
  1. "Partnerships" managed the way Germany wants to manage them does not make things cheaper for anyone, despite spreading the cost.
  2. There's a reason why the UK is now leading the Tempest program using the exact same principles that France used to lead the Neuron program. (To wit: Seek partnerships with foreign industries first, rather than foreign polities. Choose them carefully. Do not choose any German industry. Give them tasks that suit their skills. Do not involve Germany in any way. Above all else, avoid Germany.)
 

Sathya

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How come Aashish is not posting in forums? I guess most of procurement numbers he posted turned out to be not correct. We ended with just 36 rafale.

Enjoyed his posts though.

Covid 2019 happened.. Then Chinese Galwan..
Emergency purchases..
 

Bon Plan

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“Dassault is not ready to accept Airbus as a partner on equal terms,” he told Defense News. “They are saying, ‘We’ll do FCAS, but only by our rules.’”

With Dassault’s export order books for its Rafale fighter full, the company may see less reason to agree on an FCAS fighter and focus on upgrades for its own jet instead, Brandl argued. In that sense, German talk of of an F-35 buy may serve as a fall-back option, he added.

@Picdelamirand-oil what does it means? You will only upgrade Rafale and will not pursue FCAS?
There was a french-german agreement : the FCAS will be lead by Dassault and the futur MBT lead by germany. It's just what Dassault want to realize. Not to make the Eurofighter mess again.
 

suryakiran

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We will make FCAS with India.

When I visited France we had traveled quite bit in the interiors driving around. Ended our trip at Avignon and then flew back from Paris.

Myy observation. French are grumpy Indians. Italians are North Indians. If France and India decide to make planes, only thing that will happen will be lots of meetings. And maybe a few matings.
 

Bon Plan

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When I visited France we had traveled quite bit in the interiors driving around. Ended our trip at Avignon and then flew back from Paris.

Myy observation. French are grumpy Indians. Italians are North Indians. If France and India decide to make planes, only thing that will happen will be lots of meetings. And maybe a few matings.
you are confusing with swiss people.....
 

Hydra

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No, if it were possible I would be in favour of it, I think it would have a better chance of succeeding than with Germany. But there's a big problem with India's costing of developments, which leads to delays every time the budget is exceeded.
Before discussing anything about it, first somebody has to propose this joint venture in to the table, till this time neither France or India had proposed it.
And last time when India was involved in a joint aircraft R&D with time tested friend Russia, it didn't go well ( i will not blame Russians fir this).
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Before discussing anything about it, first somebody has to propose this joint venture in to the table, till this time neither France or India had proposed it.
And last time when India was involved in a joint aircraft R&D with time tested friend Russia, it didn't go well ( i will not blame Russians fir this).
Before our President's visit to India in December 2017, I had written to Macron for him to propose French assistance for the development of your AMCA with explanations on the interest of the approach. To my great surprise, the President's office gave me an official reply saying that my suggestion was taken into account, and I have since noticed that this possible help was one of the questions asked in the MRFA's RFI. The evolution of this type of approach if the MRFA were to come to fruition would be to push even further into cooperation on the SCAF.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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randomradio

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No, if it were possible I would be in favour of it, I think it would have a better chance of succeeding than with Germany. But there's a big problem with India's costing of developments, which leads to delays every time the budget is exceeded.

That's the main roadblock. We can't afford financing R&D programs with companies where a janitor gets paid as much as the DRDO chief.

An engine development program in France with 5000 high value employees getting paid an average of $100000 for 10 years is $5B. That amount's twice the funding we need for the AMCA program, including salaries.

The only way we can afford an R&D program with France is if the joint budget caters only to the R&D component and not all the other anciliary costs like salaries and benefits. The French and Indian govts will have to pay all the other costs separately.

There's no problem with India's financing of R&D. In fact, lack of money is the one of the few things DRDO has never complained about. What they have complained about is the lack of money for test facilities, which has largely been resolved since the last decade. We couldn't afford infrastructure when the alternative was we could rent them out for cheap in more advanced countries. But the funding necessary to complete a project was never an issue.

The sanctioned cost for LCA Mk1 was 2839Cr and for Mk2 is 5777Cr. That's a combined $1.15B today. It's more than enough. AMCA's projected R&D cost is merely 2-2.5 times that value. We can't afford a $100B project with France, with $50B of that just going into French salaries.