Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

randomradio

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What is the Difference between
Rafale F 4 and India Specific Enhancements

ISE involves enhancements and customisations of certain avionics. It adds extra features, hardware and software, to the core avionics. It was done to bring the jet up to MMRCA specs. Whereas F4 is an upgrade of the core avionics itself, while also adding new systems that currently don't exist on the jet.

Some of the ISE can potentially become meaningless with the F4, like HMDS and towed decoy, whereas some, like the integration of the Litening pod, weapons, data recorder and altimeter upgrades, cold start kit etc, will still remain relevant.
 

AbRaj

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Prognosis and Diagnostic Aid System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimization features are scheduled, particularly with solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Lastly, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit.
Is it something similar to ALIS of F35 or some Software in jet itself ?
 

AbRaj

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Probably like the HUMS on our jets.

Dassault is developing an ALIS like system for the Rafale as well. So it's related.
It’s not there in Indian Rafales ?
I thought such system would be pretty standard in Fourth gen fighter jet.
BTW does that mean LCA serviceability should be very good compared to their Russian and Chinese counterparts ?
 

randomradio

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It’s not there in Indian Rafales ?
I thought such system would be pretty standard in Fourth gen fighter jet.

There obviously is one. This could be a new one. Can't really tell much with a name only.

BTW does that mean LCA serviceability should be very good compared to their Russian and Chinese counterparts ?

It most definitely is. The Mk1/A has an excellent engine, and the Mk2's engine is somewhere else in terms of maintenance. I doubt even the F-35's engine is as good. In terms of airframe, the Mk1 is better than the MKI, and around the same as the Mig-29M. It does suffer from issues due to design, but still manages 14 hours for every flight hour. The Mk1A improves on that significantly. It should become comparable with older jets like the F-16 (6 hours) and M2000 (10 hours). Mk2 will see a massive improvement, enough to compare with the Gripen E (<3 hours).

Having a significantly better service life also helps. Mk1 is certified for 3000 hours and should improve to 4000 hours or more by the time Mk1A comes in. Target service life is well above 6000 hours, which is sufficient for the 40 years it's expected to fly. And it's extendable to either 9000 hours or 12000 hours, although I doubt it will ever be necessary to reach that level. Anyway longer life makes the jet more easily serviceable, so LCA is comparable to Western jets in this aspect.
 
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Lolwa

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ISE involves enhancements and customisations of certain avionics. It adds extra features, hardware and software, to the core avionics. It was done to bring the jet up to MMRCA specs. Whereas F4 is an upgrade of the core avionics itself, while also adding new systems that currently don't exist on the jet.

Some of the ISE can potentially become meaningless with the F4, like HMDS and towed decoy, whereas some, like the integration of the Litening pod, weapons, data recorder and altimeter upgrades, cold start kit etc, will still remain relevant.
From the recent European trials it looks like the f-4 is behind the Gripen and Super-hornet in effectiveness.
 

randomradio

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From the recent European trials it looks like the f-4 is behind the Gripen and Super-hornet in effectiveness.

The Rafale never made it to the tech round, they got kicked out in the first round which only looked at costs. The Typhoon as well.

So the contest was only between the F-35, Gripen and SH, and the overall rankings were also in that order.
 
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Lolwa

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The Rafale never made it to the tech round, they got kicked out in the first round which only looked at costs. The Typhoon as well.

So the contest was only between the F-35, Gripen and SH, and the overall rankings were also in that order.
How will the MMRCA 2 happen?? Would cost be the last parameter? Because I could see Gripen E winning this time if it meets all the criterias. It has a similar sized GaN radar to the Rafale. The typhoon would be far more expensive. And Gripen can supercruise at a lower speed compared to Rafale. Could it?? Won't it clash with our mk 2 program?
 

randomradio

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How will the MMRCA 2 happen?? Would cost be the last parameter?

Tech shortlist followed by costs.

Because I could see Gripen E winning this time if it meets all the criterias. It has a similar sized GaN radar to the Rafale. The typhoon would be far more expensive. And Gripen can supercruise at a lower speed compared to Rafale. Could it?? Won't it clash with our mk 2 program?

Gripen can cruise at mach 1.2, but that's not tactically relevant supercruise. Plus it does it without payload, which makes it useless. All they wanted to demonstrate was the airframe design was good. The Gripen lacks a second engine. That's its main drawback.

It obviously clashes with Mk2, as does the F-16. In MRFA, both jets literally have zero chance of making it through the tech shortlist. You need two engines to even be considered as a contestant. Amongst existing 4th gen aircraft, twin engine is necessary for certain missions due to the higher survivability and double the electrical power.

Maybe you will recall what I used to say since 2015, that the IAF have two separate requirements, SE MII and TE MII. SE MII was originally Gripen E vs F-16, it was supposed to follow MMRCA, but Mk2 killed that chance for them. TE MII is MRFA.
 
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A Person

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The Rafale never made it to the tech round, they got kicked out in the first round which only looked at costs.
No, it looked at cost and "security of supply"; and I'm pretty sure it's on that latter point the Rafale got disqualified because of a comparatively much smaller global fleet as well as the lack of American air-to-air missiles integrated. I think the Gripen managed to get through this due to the promise from Sweden that they'd share their whole stock.
 

_Anonymous_

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No, it looked at cost and "security of supply"; and I'm pretty sure it's on that latter point the Rafale got disqualified because of a comparatively much smaller global fleet as well as the lack of American air-to-air missiles integrated. I think the Gripen managed to get through this due to the promise from Sweden that they'd share their whole stock.
Why exactly should security of supply be a problem for France ? If the Finns drew up the terms of the tender citing compatibility with their existing weapons mostly of US origins then Dassault should have sought clarifications on this matter then & there . In fact I'd add Eurofighter to this category too ( assuming they were part of the tender ). If the Finns weren't prepared to relent then this would always be an exercise in futility on the part of Dassault . It's "chronicle of a death foretold."

Finally , costs being the deciding factor but over ruling technical terms is a new one ( assuming that's how the Finns decided ) considering the Indian process where technical evaluation precedes commercial terms.
 
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_Anonymous_

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"What if we need a hundred new missiles in an emergency, could you deliver that from your own stocks?" was how a Finn described the situation to me.
And France or Dassault wasn't in a position to do so? I can't tell which part of your post is more astounding . The demand of the Finns or France's inability to comply with it.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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As far as Anil Ambani is concerned
That MOFO has Ruined the Balance Sheets of many Banks and Financial Institutions

He is an absolute disaster

Whatever he TOUCHES ,goes to Ruin
The point of view of a French forumer and his understanding of the situation (Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version))

It's a good thing for us that Anil Ambani's business has fallen apart. Because he is no longer able to influence the management of DRAL in a bad way. Knowing that he managed to lose the important contracts he had in naval maintenance for example (the dockside maintenance of the ships of the 7th US fleet for example...)

Between Anil and his brother Mukesh it is a funny family story. They started out with the same money when their father Dhirubai died and the Reliance Group companies were split up. There was no will, their mother settled everything.

In the following years, they clashed in all areas. It even went as far as an unsolved murder attempt on Anil via helicopter sabotage...

Since then, Mukesh, the elder brother, has become the richest man in India with a net worth of 80 billion $, while Anil, the younger brother, has seen his personal fortune divided by 20 to be "only" 4 billion today, by dint of doing anything.

For example, in France, he had accumulated a debt of several tens of millions of €, I think about 170 if I remember correctly. Because he had not been able to pay 6 million in taxes.

He finally paid 7 million... the press used this affair to talk about "corruption", "conspiracy", "Rafale affair", etc etc, a lot of bullshit.

Dassault started the discussions with Reliance Industries Limited in 2007 with the blessing of the Congress party led UPA at that time, Mukesh being a huge Congress donor.

In 2011 creation of RATL between Dassault and RIL. Discussions with HAL stalled, and in 2015 endgame: with Dassault/HAL talks halted burying MMRCA.

Mukesh sells RATL to his younger brother and enemy Anil, who runs "Reliance Anil Dhirubai Ambani Group", or "Reliance ADA Group", or "Reliance Group".

In 2016, Narendra Modi decided to buy 36 Rafales from France. And to carry out the offsets, Dassault turns to... its partner ALREADY in place, which from now on will not be called RATL but DRAL, for Dassault Reliance Aeronautics Limited.

...And of course since Anil is a donor of the... BJP, Narendra Modi's party, hard right, unlike his brother Mukesh, and well it will upset the Congress party, which will cause the anger of the candidate Rahul Gandhi who will focus ALL his electoral campaign against the Rafale...

...In the end, the BJP will get nearly 80% of the votes and the Congress less than 20%, their worst score in more than 60 years of existence. Against the backdrop of the mini air war in Balakot, which called on Indians to address the problems of the Indian Air Force, galvanized national sentiment and, paradoxically, put pressure on the Congress party, which was accused of having held up the Rafale acquisitions.

That was four years ago.

The result is that Dassault has a free hand to invest in India politically, economically and industrially. To work the way it wants, and make its Indian ecosystem grow the way it wants. With hundreds of sales promises at the end of the tunnel.

Even if the Indians will have to pass the buck soon. Especially when France does not hesitate to have its Falcon 2000 Albatross assembled in India (originally 11/12, now 8/12 if I followed correctly).

So yes, DRAL will probably quickly become the best aeronautical asset in India. The industrial facilities are ramping up and even though we don't have any new satellite images we know from the press that the second lot of land owned by Anil Ambani of Reliance ADA Group is being put to use to build more facilities for DRAL. The extension of the cement taxiway, which is clearly visible, has demonstrated for the past three years that this section of land is intended to be used for buildings.

I think we will know more early this year. In the meantime, if the Rafale ISEs give complete satisfaction, we can safely consider that not only are these Rafales the IAF's best assets, but also that it will want many more, and that we will thus risk rendering obsolete any competing offer that, while having equivalent costs, does not offer the same functionalities.

This will eject Boeing, SAAB, maybe even Sukhoi unless they come back with an "FGFA" based on the Su57, which they already refused once. For LM, the F-16V has been finished for a while. And the F-35 doesn't mix well (in theory) with the S400.

So perhaps there is not much missing to force the last little Indian effort, which would force us to resize the production tool, and perhaps to cross a new threshold of profitability that would allow us to obtain those famous "economies of scale" that seem to work so well for the industrialization of the F-35.

Let's imagine an F4.2-equivalent Rafale coming out at less than $80 million flyaway, for example. Not least because of the reduced cost of GaN modules. This could open up many markets.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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No, it looked at cost and "security of supply"; and I'm pretty sure it's on that latter point the Rafale got disqualified because of a comparatively much smaller global fleet as well as the lack of American air-to-air missiles integrated. I think the Gripen managed to get through this due to the promise from Sweden that they'd share their whole stock.

I doubt it. The cheapest possible price for export is India's price, even if for a different version, and if we use the same metric 'cause of economies of scale for the new version, without customisation, then we get €10.9B for 64. That's a definite failure. Add a more extensive weapons package and that's clearly well over a billion bucks above what they can pay. Plus they have to pay more for the integration of certain weapons like the JASSM-ER, or even some possible customisation.

So, when 3 competitiors offered all 64 jets below their threshold, with all the weapons they actually need, the ones not meeting those numbers were rejected. Their other option of reducing numbers to meet the threshold was possibly in case most or none of the jets made the cut, which they probably didn't need to exercise with the F-35 making the cut. It's also likely it was the fan favourite within the Finnish AF, so there was no need to make any concessions for the other competitors.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
The point of view of a French forumer and his understanding of the situation (Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version))

It's a good thing for us that Anil Ambani's business has fallen apart. Because he is no longer able to influence the management of DRAL in a bad way. Knowing that he managed to lose the important contracts he had in naval maintenance for example (the dockside maintenance of the ships of the 7th US fleet for example...)

Between Anil and his brother Mukesh it is a funny family story. They started out with the same money when their father Dhirubai died and the Reliance Group companies were split up. There was no will, their mother settled everything.

In the following years, they clashed in all areas. It even went as far as an unsolved murder attempt on Anil via helicopter sabotage...

Since then, Mukesh, the elder brother, has become the richest man in India with a net worth of 80 billion $, while Anil, the younger brother, has seen his personal fortune divided by 20 to be "only" 4 billion today, by dint of doing anything.

For example, in France, he had accumulated a debt of several tens of millions of €, I think about 170 if I remember correctly. Because he had not been able to pay 6 million in taxes.

He finally paid 7 million... the press used this affair to talk about "corruption", "conspiracy", "Rafale affair", etc etc, a lot of bullshit.

Dassault started the discussions with Reliance Industries Limited in 2007 with the blessing of the Congress party led UPA at that time, Mukesh being a huge Congress donor.

In 2011 creation of RATL between Dassault and RIL. Discussions with HAL stalled, and in 2015 endgame: with Dassault/HAL talks halted burying MMRCA.

Mukesh sells RATL to his younger brother and enemy Anil, who runs "Reliance Anil Dhirubai Ambani Group", or "Reliance ADA Group", or "Reliance Group".

In 2016, Narendra Modi decided to buy 36 Rafales from France. And to carry out the offsets, Dassault turns to... its partner ALREADY in place, which from now on will not be called RATL but DRAL, for Dassault Reliance Aeronautics Limited.

...And of course since Anil is a donor of the... BJP, Narendra Modi's party, hard right, unlike his brother Mukesh, and well it will upset the Congress party, which will cause the anger of the candidate Rahul Gandhi who will focus ALL his electoral campaign against the Rafale...

...In the end, the BJP will get nearly 80% of the votes and the Congress less than 20%, their worst score in more than 60 years of existence. Against the backdrop of the mini air war in Balakot, which called on Indians to address the problems of the Indian Air Force, galvanized national sentiment and, paradoxically, put pressure on the Congress party, which was accused of having held up the Rafale acquisitions.

That was four years ago.

The result is that Dassault has a free hand to invest in India politically, economically and industrially. To work the way it wants, and make its Indian ecosystem grow the way it wants. With hundreds of sales promises at the end of the tunnel.

Even if the Indians will have to pass the buck soon. Especially when France does not hesitate to have its Falcon 2000 Albatross assembled in India (originally 11/12, now 8/12 if I followed correctly).

So yes, DRAL will probably quickly become the best aeronautical asset in India. The industrial facilities are ramping up and even though we don't have any new satellite images we know from the press that the second lot of land owned by Anil Ambani of Reliance ADA Group is being put to use to build more facilities for DRAL. The extension of the cement taxiway, which is clearly visible, has demonstrated for the past three years that this section of land is intended to be used for buildings.

I think we will know more early this year. In the meantime, if the Rafale ISEs give complete satisfaction, we can safely consider that not only are these Rafales the IAF's best assets, but also that it will want many more, and that we will thus risk rendering obsolete any competing offer that, while having equivalent costs, does not offer the same functionalities.

This will eject Boeing, SAAB, maybe even Sukhoi unless they come back with an "FGFA" based on the Su57, which they already refused once. For LM, the F-16V has been finished for a while. And the F-35 doesn't mix well (in theory) with the S400.

So perhaps there is not much missing to force the last little Indian effort, which would force us to resize the production tool, and perhaps to cross a new threshold of profitability that would allow us to obtain those famous "economies of scale" that seem to work so well for the industrialization of the F-35.

Let's imagine an F4.2-equivalent Rafale coming out at less than $80 million flyaway, for example. Not least because of the reduced cost of GaN modules. This could open up many markets.

Anil's only well-functioning company today is actually the one DRAL is attached to. Plus we don't know what can change over the next 4 years, never mind beyond that. But yeah, he's gonna let the experts do their job instead of sticking his head into their business.

The FGFA and F-35 are not competing in MRFA. Neither jet will be ready before the Rafale F4.2, so they don't matter. Whether Rafale wins or loses the tender will be entirely up to Dassault. With the MoD bringing in the L2 in case the L1 fails to deliver during negotiations will be the main guillotine over Dassault's head. With interest in the Typhoon renewing amongst the consortium, it will become a threat to the Rafale once again.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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Anil's only well-functioning company today is actually the one DRAL is attached to. Plus we don't know what can change over the next 4 years, never mind beyond that. But yeah, he's gonna let the experts do their job instead of sticking his head into their business.

The FGFA and F-35 are not competing in MRFA. Neither jet will be ready before the Rafale F4.2, so they don't matter. Whether Rafale wins or loses the tender will be entirely up to Dassault. With the MoD bringing in the L2 in case the L1 fails to deliver during negotiations will be the main guillotine over Dassault's head. With interest in the Typhoon renewing amongst the consortium, it will become a threat to the Rafale once again.

If Anil Ambani is involved in Rafale manufacturing , then BJP will be defeated in 2024 , it is as simple as that ; that is the political side of the equation

On the military Technical And Financial side there are 2 tracks emerging

1 Su 30 -- 50 more plus 12 which are being talked about AND then Su 75 plus AMCA

2) 36 Rafales for IAF with 24 for IN
Off the Shelf And
MMRCA 2.0 is.cancelled

3 ) Both Russia and France will lobby for P75 I and Next generation of SSBN / SSN

4 ) France wins everything
Ie 114 plus Rafale M and throws in Nuclear Submarine plus 110 KN class Engine technology
 

AbRaj

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Dec 6, 2017
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Republic of Wadiya
Tech shortlist followed by costs.



Gripen can cruise at mach 1.2, but that's not tactically relevant supercruise. Plus it does it without payload, which makes it useless. All they wanted to demonstrate was the airframe design was good. The Gripen lacks a second engine. That's its main drawback.

It obviously clashes with Mk2, as does the F-16. In MRFA, both jets literally have zero chance of making it through the tech shortlist. You need two engines to even be considered as a contestant. Amongst existing 4th gen aircraft, twin engine is necessary for certain missions due to the higher survivability and double the electrical power.

Maybe you will recall what I used to say since 2015, that the IAF have two separate requirements, SE MII and TE MII. SE MII was originally Gripen E vs F-16, it was supposed to follow MMRCA, but Mk2 killed that chance for them. TE MII is MRFA.
Looking at IAf priorities, it’s not entirely impossible if they demand three engines in their next tenders, just for “Better Survivablity”, for Supercruise with One engine ‘On hold’ and for Supreme-cruise during running away for next AMRAAM Dodging rounds.

It’s a circus, I mean the whole whishlist and procurement process.
 
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