Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,587
1,528
India
s

Oh, by ‘One Turn Fighter’, I don’t mean that It will get shot down after 1st turn. It was, and to an extent still is a very potent fourth gen fighter with capable radar,sensor package, EWS, has modern avionics and weapons package that is good enough to kill lots of Fighters with better Flight characteristics.

Our primary Attack fighter before Rafale.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AbRaj

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
s

Oh, by ‘One Turn Fighter’, I don’t mean that It will get shot down after 1st turn. It was, and to an extent still is a very potent fourth gen fighter with capable radar,sensor package, EWS, has modern avionics and weapons package that is good enough to kill lots of Fighters with better Flight characteristics.
M2000 has a high instaneous turn rate. But it lost its kinetic energy faster than a classical winged fighter during so, so if it don't win in the beginning of the fight, saying against a F16, it loose.
It's not just not verified yet, it's also completely bogus. They've been grasping at the flimsiest straws to try to find some shade to throw, and when you look at what they've "found" it mostly shows they're desperate.
French portal Mediapart publishes yet another dubious report on Rafale
Mediapart is a full left wing french tabloid. Let's spent some time. Not the first time they tried to find something (they seem to hate french high industry....) without result.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
  • Love
Reactions: Bon Plan and Herciv

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
Now Rafale has reached more orders than the european EF2000.
And it's not the end (+36 at least for India, UAE, ...)

India could be a hit or a miss. We are already buying more MKIs and Mig-29s for now, so the MRFA tender gains more importance over another GTG.

But there's UAE, Indonesia, Iraq and Ukraine coming up.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,452
4,049
73
France
India could be a hit or a miss. We are already buying more MKIs and Mig-29s for now, so the MRFA tender gains more importance over another GTG.

But there's UAE, Indonesia, Iraq and Ukraine coming up.
The more time passes, the more time the IAF has to appreciate the qualities of the Rafale, and as these are exceptional, this strengthens the chances of an Indian major order.
 
  • Like
Reactions: STEPHEN COHEN

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
The more time passes, the more time the IAF has to appreciate the qualities of the Rafale, and as these are exceptional, this strengthens the chances of an Indian major order.

Since 2014, we have bought 36 Rafales and 83 LCAs.

The number of new jets in play for this decade are 12 MKIs, 21 Mig-29s, 118 LCAs, 114 MRFA and 40 AMCAs.

The MKI/Mig contract should be signed next month, with payment going out through all of 2022, so the next window for new jets can happen only in 2023. Since LCA Mk2 is expected to go into production in 2023, we may see a contract for LCA, for either 20-40 jets or all 118, during that window.

The next window is 2025, by which time the MRFA would begin maturing. We could already be in the price discovery stage at this point so I don't see the point of having a parallel procurement outside the MRFA process by then.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,079
707
California
The more time passes, the more time the IAF has to appreciate the qualities of the Rafale, and as these are exceptional, this strengthens the chances of an Indian major order.
Lol. Nice spin. Could be the more time passes the more the IAF recognized what a mistake it was to buy your french plane in that it won't survive a conflict with chicoms. Lets cut our losses and just keep 36 instead of 120+ fighters, eh?

IAF is probably crossing their fingers in the hope one day US makes it official and finally offers the F-35 to IAF. :D
 

STEPHEN COHEN

Senior member
Dec 4, 2017
7,463
4,581
Lol. Nice spin. Could be the more time passes the more the IAF recognized what a mistake it was to buy your french plane in that it won't survive a conflict with chicoms. Lets cut our losses and just keep 36 instead of 120+ fighters, eh?

IAF is probably crossing their fingers in the hope one day US makes it official and finally offers the F-35 to IAF. :D

You are so Funny ,mate

You know we are buying S 400
So F 35 is ruled out

Infact we might buy SU 75 and also S 500
The more time passes, the more time the IAF has to appreciate the qualities of the Rafale, and as these are exceptional, this strengthens the chances of an Indian major order.

I thought that When NSA Doval was in France last week , Some major package deal would have been " Firmed up "
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,452
4,049
73
France

Rafale : un succès de plus en plus franc

Translation

Rafale: an increasingly clear success

BASILE DEKONINK


Long shunned by foreign "customers", the flagship of French aeronautics has taken off in recent years. 162 firm orders have been registered since 2015 and the very first export sale, to Egypt. And other successes could follow.

This time, it is taking off for good. After years of lack of export sales, Dassault Aviation's Rafale is finally experiencing success that is commensurate with the billions committed to its programme. The entry into force of the new Egyptian mega-contract, this Monday, is the latest in a string of good news since 2015 and the first order from a customer other than the French army (Egypt, already).

South Korea, Morocco, Brazil, Belgium or more recently Switzerland... before this date, the multipurpose jet, which entered service in 2004, had been plagued by disappointments, between stalled negotiations and lost competitions (often to the benefit of the United States). Since then, everything has improved, with 162 firm orders and concrete prospects. Here's an update on what's going on.

What has already been delivered

First come, first served. To date, only one country has received full delivery of its Rafale order: Egypt, which signed the very first export contract for the fighter jet in February 2015. Negotiations for 24 aircraft worth a total of 5.2 billion euros were completed in barely three months, as Cairo sought to free itself from American tutelage and deal with tense domestic and foreign contexts.

Through its interventions in Afghanistan (2008 and 2009), Libya (2011) and Mali (2013), the Rafale has finally acquired its credentials in combat and attracted the attention of international leaders, including Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sissi. The support given to Cairo by the signing of the contract, in the midst of civil repression in Egypt, did not fail to make human rights organisations react.

Orders in progress


Did the contract with Egypt serve as a catalyst? In the wake of the first export order for the Rafale, Dassault Aviation recorded two mega-orders in a few months. First, Qatar signed a contract in May 2015 for 24 new aircraft, which was increased to 36 after an option was exercised in 2017. Total value: 6.3 billion euros. The first aircraft was delivered in 2019 and the last one is due to be delivered next April.

India followed, choosing the Rafale in 2016 after a nine-year tender. Thirty-six aircraft are also to be delivered to New Delhi - the first was delivered in 2019 - until 2022. Estimated at 7.8 billion euros, the contract has been tainted since its signing by several controversies; the Indian opposition first denounced the choice of the government to make the private conglomerate Reliance Group, inexperienced in defense, the partner of Dassault. Then "Mediapart" revealed this summer that the French group, as well as Thales, had paid kickbacks to an intermediary in order to obtain the contract - an investigation by the National Financial Prosecutor's Office was opened this summer.

This turbulence did not prevent Dassault from continuing its momentum. In January this year, Greece became the first European buyer of the Rafale, with a contract worth some 2.3 billion for 12 second-hand models and six new aircraft - another six were added by Greek Prime Minister Kyriákos Mitsotákis at the end of September.

Croatia followed at the end of May with 12 second-hand Rafale aircraft for just under €1 billion. Egypt, finally, ordered 30 additional aircraft, a 3.75 billion contract that entered its operational phase on Monday with the payment by Cairo of the first installment.

Potential sales

Several deals could finally fill Dassault's order book in the years to come. Qatar still has an option for 36 additional aircraft, which Doha has not yet exercised. The aircraft manufacturer is also bidding for a new contract for 36 aircraft in India, but New Delhi is looking to boost its domestic production and the corruption investigation is complicating negotiations.

In the short term, France's two best hopes are in Indonesia, with which discussions for an order for 36 Rafales are "very advanced", in the words of Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly. Dassault Aviation is also expected to receive a green light soon for the tender launched in 2016 by Finland, which is looking to replace its fleet of three squadrons (currently made up of F-18s). The French group is on the shortlist.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
India could be a hit or a miss. We are already buying more MKIs and Mig-29s for now, so the MRFA tender gains more importance over another GTG.

But there's UAE, Indonesia, Iraq and Ukraine coming up.
India will never made the same mistake than with M2000 : too few order, so too narrow fleet now.
I never believe a 150+ figure, but a second batch is for me nearly assured, and maybe a third and last one.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,325
1,054
France
Since 2014, we have bought 36 Rafales and 83 LCAs.

The number of new jets in play for this decade are 12 MKIs, 21 Mig-29s, 118 LCAs, 114 MRFA and 40 AMCAs.

The MKI/Mig contract should be signed next month, with payment going out through all of 2022, so the next window for new jets can happen only in 2023. Since LCA Mk2 is expected to go into production in 2023, we may see a contract for LCA, for either 20-40 jets or all 118, during that window.

The next window is 2025, by which time the MRFA would begin maturing. We could already be in the price discovery stage at this point so I don't see the point of having a parallel procurement outside the MRFA process by then.
LCA is mainly a point defense fighter, a replacement of Mig21.
Rafale can be seen as a replacement for Mig23, Mig27 and Jaguar (with incredible more A tot A assets). You need it quite soon. MRFA is all but clear and AMCA has a long road before being in squad.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
LCA is mainly a point defense fighter, a replacement of Mig21.
Rafale can be seen as a replacement for Mig23, Mig27 and Jaguar (with incredible more A tot A assets). You need it quite soon. MRFA is all but clear and AMCA has a long road before being in squad.

Yeah, Rafale's needed for all missions.
LCA Mk1/A's gonna directly replace the Mig-21.
LCA Mk2 sits between the LCA Mk1 and Rafale. It's likely meant to do 80% of the Rafale's role at 20% of the cost. :p
As for AMCA, we are gonna buy 40 jets, 20+20 this decade, in the Mk1 form. The Mk2 will take half a decade more after that.

But the issue is where the second order of Rafale will fit in.

2021-22: LCA Mk1, MKI, Mig-29 - 116
2023-24: LCA Mk2 - 118
2025-26: MRFA - 114

2021-26 is jam-packed with high value contracts. There's also the MKI upgrade.

Post 2026: 20+20 AMCA, Su-57(?). But post MRFA is meaningless anyway.

While I'm all for a second batch, I'm trying to be realistic.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Bon Plan

A Person

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
1,008
1,008
A Place
Both countries are in shambles, and neither have the means to sustain a real military aviation force. I feel like even if they did acquire aircraft, all that would happen would be that the crew would strip them for parts to sell to foreign buyers. Iraq was ruined by the Americans and the subsequent civil war, and is now far too close to Iran, which itself is far too close to China (mostly thanks to America who decided that only China was allowed to trade with Iran). And Ukraine is sadly an even sorrier tale, due to the country being completely gangrened by corruption and incompetence:

 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,554
10,789
India
Both countries are in shambles, and neither have the means to sustain a real military aviation force. I feel like even if they did acquire aircraft, all that would happen would be that the crew would strip them for parts to sell to foreign buyers. Iraq was ruined by the Americans and the subsequent civil war, and is now far too close to Iran, which itself is far too close to China (mostly thanks to America who decided that only China was allowed to trade with Iran). And Ukraine is sadly an even sorrier tale, due to the country being completely gangrened by corruption and incompetence:


Yeah, Iraq is a political problem.

But I don't think Ukraine's gonna be as much a problem since France is willing to bankroll it.

A solution for Ukraine to this knotty policy problem may lie in France’s aerospace sector The French are moving faster than Washington and are reportedly ready to propose a tranche of Dassault Rafale fighters to Ukraine. French media have say this sale will be at a priority agenda item when President Macron makes a state visit to Kiev later this year.

 “The French president believes in the Rafale’s chances of winning in this former bastion of Russian industry,” reported the French news site Aerotime Hub. “Paris has an advantage: its commercial system capable of supporting such a contract is already in place.” The Rafale would be “85 per cent guaranteed by France, and the French Ministry of the Economy and Finance reportedly already earmarked a budget of €1.5 billion for this purpose.”

Could be another tranche of used Rafales. 12 Croatian Rafales were bankrolled with 1B, so 1.5B could get you 18 used Rafales. France also proposes to buy Motor Sich.