Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Nothing new, the problem is : Does the IAF think that a new batch of 36 Rafales is an obstacle to the MRFA?
On the other hand I think if India buys 36 Rafales now it will be F4.2 so the source of this information is not very sure. The person is turning his own opinions into facts.
Could be speculation. But multiple sources in the OSINT & mainstream media generally considered reliable are reporting the same , so it could be genuine news.

Personally I don't think the MMRCA-2. 0 or the MRFA tender will ever go thru. It's more of an insurance against the failure of the LCA-Mk2 / MWF program & will continue to be on the agenda till such time as the Mk2 / MWF doesn't achieve FOC that too within reasonable time lines ( left unsaid is the possibility that it may turn out to be a complete lemon & arrive too late for anything to be done about it in which case the MRFA tender would be on the table but as of now that's a remote possibility) .

Given the financial burden that procurement of 120 odd fighter aircrafts thru the tender would place on the Exchequer that too in these times , it makes sense to buy it off the shelf in a piecemeal manner & settle for off sets.

I reckon that's how we'd complete our quota of 4.5++ Gen 120 + fighters. There's a precedent for it too in how we went about the procurement of the Su-30 MKI fighters.
 
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randomradio

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Nothing new, the problem is : Does the IAF think that a new batch of 36 Rafales is an obstacle to the MRFA?
On the other hand I think if India buys 36 Rafales now it will be F4.2 so the source of this information is not very sure. The person is turning his own opinions into facts.

If really necessary, the MRFA will have to be delayed and we have to sign the deal for 36 more before it happens.

However the risk for the IAF is their Rafale dreams will come to an end with the second or at best a third tranche, with AMCA taking over from that point. I mean, if we sign a deal by 2023, it's going to take until 2028-29, and a third deal a year later could take us to 2036-37. But that's 15 years for just 72 jets, it doesn't make sense. The IAF will be looking at a much more regular delivery schedule, like they did with MKI.

With the MKI, the IAF absorbed 25+ jets every year between 2009 and 2015. Apart from license production of 140 jets, they also took delivery of 18(replacement)+40(options)+42(emergency) jets during the period. So the IAF will likely plan to do something similar with the Rafale as well. With a deal for 114 delivering 12 per year, the IAF may exercise options for 50%, or 57 jets, which can be delivered in kit form simultaneously with the first 114, if not assembled in India itself. By 2037, with MRFA, they will get 171 jets instead of just 72.

So the IAF's game plan is 36+114+57 before 2040. Not 36+36+36.

As for money, the LCA Mk2 will cost $1B per year for 16 jets. MRFA could cost $2B every year on average. Both expenses are for 2028+.

Right now, the IAF will have $7B for every year until FY 2028 where they will be absorbing only LCA Mk1A and no other fighter jet. So that's $42B from FY 2023 to 2028, even if the budget grows only to cover inflation. With MKI deal complete and Rafale deal completing this year, the only financial outgo is $900M for LCA Mk1A. This leaves $6+B a year for force multipliers, transports and helicopters, all of which are expected to cumulatively cost $10B. We can remove $2B a year for air defence and other ground based sytems. Which leaves $14B for fighter jets from 2022-2027 without any real growth in the defence budget.

The IAF's capital budget increased by 23% this year. And it's expected to more than double by 2027 from its last year's figure of $6B. So the argument citing lack of money doesn't exist.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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If LCA Mk2 fails, then we have to fall back on F-16 or Gripen or something similar, MRFA is an independent requirement meant to fulfill a different role.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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But the requirement for LCA is not as severe as Gripen since our main SEAD/DEAD aircraft will be Rafale and AMCA.

I have a Crazy Question

We are modifying the Hawk to carry Stand off SAAW munitions , that is a great idea

But is it also possible to use Hawks as Jamming Aircraft , Put a SAP 518 on 1 Hawk embedded with 2 LCAs
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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I have a Crazy Question

We are modifying the Hawk to carry Stand off SAAW munitions , that is a great idea

But is it also possible to use Hawks as Jamming Aircraft , Put a SAP 518 on 1 Hawk embedded with 2 LCAs

Of course. You will need an ECM pod that can power itself with a ram air turbine.

SAP is impossible on the Hawk, it's too big and heavy. In fact it's big and heavy even for the MKI, let alone anything smaller. But something like the EL/M 8222 is possible.

But there's no point in doing this since better aircraft are available, like the LCA itself. And since we plan to add standoff weapons on the Hawk, ECM capability is not necessary. Embedding a subsonic trainer with supersonic aircraft also doesn't make sense, since the aircraft can only carry stand-in or escort jammers, which requires going close to the adversary. If you still want to embed the Hawk within an LCA formation, then the LCAs can provide jamming. After all, you only need 1 jammer for multiple aircraft.

Google Hawk 200.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Safran Aircraft Engines assure le MCO des moteurs du Dassault Rafale

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Safran Aircraft Engines to provide engine maintenance for the Dassault Rafale

The French Ministry of Defence has awarded Safran Aircraft Engines the contract to maintain the M88 engines powering the French Air Force's Dassault Rafale fighter jets in operational condition.

Ravel for the Dassault Rafale, Bolero for Safran engines


As a logical extension of the transformation plan for aircraft maintenance launched in 2017 by Florence Parly, the French Minister of the Army, and implemented by the French Aeronautical Maintenance Directorate (DMAé), Safran Aircraft Engines has just been awarded the contract for the M88 engines powering the Dassault Rafale fighter jets of the French Air Force and Space Force and the French Navy. Called "Bolero", the contract runs until the end of 2030 and represents an air coverage of over 400,000 flight hours. In 2019, Dassault Aviation was notified of the MCO contract for the Rafale aircraft excluding engines.

Complete scope of the M88 and its computers

The "Bolero" contract provides the full scope of the M88 engine and its ECUs: technical support; new or repaired parts and modules; and maintenance of state support resources. The contract "will adapt to the evolution of the aircraft fleet linked to new Rafale deliveries as well as to export sales", says the Ministry of the Armed Forces, referring to the recent sales of Dassault Rafales to Greece and Croatia.

Dedicated centre

It goes on to say: "contracting a commitment to the availability of engine modules to the forces, in partnership with the Service Industriel de l'Aéronautique (SIAé), this contract will be steered by a dedicated body, the Pôle de conduite et de soutien Rafale (PCS).

This has been set up in France and will surely be reproduced in India.
 
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Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
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Dec 2, 2017
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I have a Crazy Question

We are modifying the Hawk to carry Stand off SAAW munitions , that is a great idea

But is it also possible to use Hawks as Jamming Aircraft , Put a SAP 518 on 1 Hawk embedded with 2 LCAs
Will be difficult for it to keep up with the strike group. As a standalone light CAS platform or for Air interdiction in limited air superiority it will work.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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France's nuclear deterrence launched from the air relies on standoff capability. It may not even rely on penetrating the Russian IADS on its own to perform the task.
A nuclear strike is a mission that mobilises many aircraft. The strike may involve several targets, in which case there must be a synchronization that results in simultaneous nuclear explosions so that there is no advance notice for some of them.

Such a strike must not fail, so there are many conventional aircraft destroying or neutralising the opponent's defences to facilitate the penetration of the aircraft carrying the nuclear payload. But in the end, if the opposing forces are not completely eliminated, the Rafale must penetrate to fire its missile, and it must do so at the scheduled time.

Targets can be deep in enemy territory, and that is why, despite the range of the ASMP-A, the Rafale needs a significant penetration capability.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Ce mercredi, l'armée va tester sa force de dissuasion nucléaire en Auvergne

This Wednesday, the army will test its nuclear deterrent force in Auvergne

On Wednesday 7 April, dozens of army planes of all kinds will cross the Auvergne sky in the afternoon. Far from the swallows with springtime announcements, the military forces are testing France's nuclear deterrent. Impressive, but a simple exercise.
The objective is impressive, but obviously no risk for the Auvergnats. Poker is the name of this military operation that the air and space force carries out four times a year. Usually, however, you don't realise it, because unless you have insomnia, you sleep soundly. But with Covid-19 having cleared the skies of many of its civilian aircraft, the military is taking advantage of the opportunity to carry out its operation in the middle of the day.

Thus, about fifty aircraft in flight (Rafale, A330 Phénix and C135 tankers, AWACS E3F control and detection aircraft, Mirage 2000) will take off from airbases all over France (*) to meet in the north of Brittany. From there, the aircraft will fly around the tip of Brittany to descend towards the Pyrenees, cross to the Mediterranean and then go to the centre of France where the aircraft will fly at low altitude and simulate firing a weapon. In total, 6 to 7 hours of flight.

7 questions to Colonel Olivier, in charge of Operation Poker


What is the purpose of Operation Poker?

It serves to guarantee to the President of the Republic that he can engage the nuclear forces in all circumstances. It is also an operation that aims to train the crews.

All the presidents of the Fifth Republic have confirmed the importance of nuclear deterrence, which is based on three credibilities. Political credibility, technical credibility, i.e. the means, and operational credibility. Operation Poker ensures the last two credibilities.
For decades we have been carrying out Operation Poker at night, but for the first time it will take place during the day. We will be able to take the tactics further. We are now training to deal with a very large enemy opposition.

For this, you need to train four times a year?

We face a wide variety of threats. And at a very high level. And the air force has two permanent missions: air safety and nuclear deterrence. We always go further in our training.

Is France really under nuclear threat?

The semantics have not changed since 1964, but what lies behind it has. There is a kind of return of the nation-states, so we are preparing for high intensity conflicts. Conflicts against forces equivalent to ours. Rafale generation aircraft, defence systems with very powerful ground-to-air missiles.

Operation Poker is training us offensively as well as defensively. There will be systems on the ground, but we won't know where they are. We will use intelligence, use satellites... Moreover, the threats on the ground are moving. That's why we train for very low altitude, very high speed flights. In concrete terms, we hide in valleys.

Why the Massif Central?

We aim for less populated areas to limit noise pollution.

How does the launch of a nuclear raid work? Does the president have a red button on his desk?

It doesn't happen like that. It would be a June 1940 type situation. An escalation that leads to such a paroxysm that it would be inevitable. There's diplomacy involved, conventional engagement...

In concrete terms, how quickly can you be ready to launch a nuclear raid?

I can't say. It's the president who decides on the time. That's why he has a chief of staff, operation centres that are permanently on watch and all the tools to give the order.

Where can nuclear missiles come from?

Since 1996 and the dismantling of the Albion plateau, there are only two components: one airborne, from aircraft, and one oceanic, from a submarine. One of which is permanently hidden on the ocean floor.

Two essential components for diplomacy: the air force shows that we are preparing, the rise in power. This is the visible and dissuasive component. And an invisible component so that the enemy says to himself: "even if I strike by surprise, there will always be a submarine somewhere, ready to hit us. It's Operation Poker, but we're not bluffing.
 
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Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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If LCA Mk2 fails, then we have to fall back on F-16 or Gripen or something similar, MRFA is an independent requirement meant to fulfill a different role.
It will not failed. The LCA lessons are digest. It will be a better plane than LCA, but maybe not with the expected margin, that's all.
 

lcafanboy

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Dec 22, 2017
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Saab Gripen ‘Rips Apart’ Chinese J-11 Fighters In War Games; Experts Call Them ‘Sitting Ducks’ For Rafales
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,206
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India
It will not failed. The LCA lessons are digest.

Yeah, I'm confident it will not fail, it's basically the same airframe as the LCA Mk1, it's just a Super version with a longer fuselage and bigger wing.

It will be a better plane than LCA, but maybe not with the expected margin, that's all.

The IAF's goal is for it to meet M2000's performance, whereas ADA's goal is to surpass M2000. So the margin depends on what goal you are considering.

If we meet M2000's performance with Rafale-class avionics, then it's a success. If we surpass the M2000's performance, then it's cherry on top.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Saab Gripen ‘Rips Apart’ Chinese J-11 Fighters In War Games; Experts Call Them ‘Sitting Ducks’ For Rafales

I wouldn't give it too much importance. The J-11 version the Chinese sent was their oldest, most obsolete variant, which the Chinese claimed were obsolete back in the early 2000s. Even then the Gripens only managed a kill ratio of 1.2:1. Also the fact that the exercises may have pushed rules in favour of the Gripen. For example, if they carried no external loads, which can increase RCS, that would favour the Gripen. All the Gripens have to do it avoid a frontal engagement, which is easily accomplished without AWACS presence.

But, if true, their inability to escort or perform evasive manoeuvres does question their professionalism and training. Or they simply didn't want to show off some things. The fact that the J-11 won every engagement in WVR shows that they are pretty well trained.

It will be interesting to know how the J-10C performed in 2019.
 

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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Saab Gripen ‘Rips Apart’ Chinese J-11 Fighters In War Games; Experts Call Them ‘Sitting Ducks’ For Rafales
This is very interesting about the BVR missile range :

"Interestingly, military analysts observed that Gripens outperformed the J-11s in terms of the range given how 88% of the Thai kills occurred at a range of at least 19 miles, while the Chinese scored just 14% of their kills at the same range.

The Gripens also scored 10 kills at a distance of more than 31 miles where the J-11s scored no kills. The Aviation website Alert 5 noted how the Chinese pilots had poor situational awareness."

31 miles is something comfortable, but far far what some said about the AMRAAM range.