Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Actually I quite like this optimism. No matter how inferior your fighter aircraft, if it's 2 or 3 times cheaper than the most advanced fighter in your or preferably in your enemy's arsenal, no problem. Just keep buying them in bulk. The more the merrier. Makes for a more productive turkey shoot. JF-17 manufacturers must be smiling ear to ear.

I sure hope Vayu Bhavan is reading this.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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OK, no problem :)

Back to the Rafale - I am not sure if I mentioned it here, but Finland included Israel in HX. There was an inquiry sent to Israel at an early stage, and we don't really know what it was about. Well, obviously it was about weapons, but no details are available.

So that is an interesting idea: a Rafale with some Israeli stuff integrated. Finland has just chosen GABRIEL missile from Israel for the Navy and coastal defense. This is an example of Finland buying stuff from countries that are quite different from the usual partners, and it is also an example of a procurement that was a complete surprise. Of course everyone would have thought that Finland would pick either RBS-15 (Swedish, also previously used by Finnish Navy) or JSM (Norwegian, also a neighbouring country like Sweden). So now, earlier RBS-15's are being replaced on some ships by Gabriel missiles, and four new ships will be given Gabriels.

A Rafale with Israeli weapons could perhaps be cheaper. MICA is very good and very interesting, but expensive. Same goes for AASM Hammer. Integration of a cheaper IR missile and SPICE could result in a better option for cost-sensitive Finns.

I don't know, these are just my ideas! I have no idea if they are grounded in reality at all. Definitely the Meteor has to be included if a Eurocanard is bought, that is obvious.

Israel is good for both the Rafale and the F-35. Due to India's ISE, some of Israel's tech have found their way into Indian Rafales. We may integrate more in the future as well, like surveillance pods. The Israelis have also modified the F-35 for their own use, and since Finland isn't part of NATO, this modification may be useful. So the Israelis work with both jets.

This is the biggest enemy of the F-35 in Finland: operating costs. There will be no mercy, and I can't see how it could be possible to run 64 F-35's at the same price as 62 Hornets. Regarding Rafale, the total number would probably be less than 64. But LM has fixed their offer at 64 planes, and I don't see how it could work out in real life.

If the rules are the same as in Switzerland, then the F-35 will cost cheaper to operate than the Rafale with 20% less flight hours and a 20% exchange rate difference.

But the main point is how the costs are actually calculated. The cost in Switzerland is the full sustainment cost, it's not necessarily how Finland calculates its €250M per year.

If we assume Finland buys 54 jets, 18 per squadron, then €250M is €4.6M per jet. Based on the Rafale contract with India, the yearly spares cost for each jet comes up to €2M per year. So the remaining €2.6M should easily make up for other consumables and maintenance.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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Actually I quite like this optimism. No matter how inferior your fighter aircraft, if it's 2 or 3 times cheaper than the most advanced fighter in your or preferably in your enemy's arsenal, no problem. Just keep buying them in bulk. The more the merrier. Makes for a more productive turkey shoot. JF-17 manufacturers must be smiling ear to ear.

I sure hope Vayu Bhavan is reading this.

With the Availability of Long Range Stand Off Weapons , what matters is that
You have planes Flying in the AIR , rather than Sitting in the Hangars for Maintenance

A LCA or JF 17 can fire stand off Air to Ground Missiles and Run Away

The only way to.stop JF 17s from Hit and Run missions is to use Low Cost Air to Air Missiles like ASTRA in a pre emptive manner

JF 17 will also be used as BAR -- CAP for preventing IAF hit and Run Missions

If we Can integrate Spice 2000 with Mirage 2000 , why not with LCA
 

_Anonymous_

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With the Availability of Long Range Stand Off Weapons , what matters is that
You have planes Flying in the AIR , rather than Sitting in the Hangars for Maintenance

A LCA or JF 17 can fire stand off Air to Ground Missiles and Run Away

The only way to.stop JF 17s from Hit and Run missions is to use Low Cost Air to Air Missiles like ASTRA in a pre emptive manner

JF 17 will also be used as BAR -- CAP for preventing IAF hit and Run Missions

If we Can integrate Spice 2000 with Mirage 2000 , why not with LCA
Ever heard of BVR & LRSAM ? Ever heard of IRST , SAR & OTH radars ?
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Ever heard of BVR & LRSAM ? Ever heard of IRST , SAR & OTH radars ?

For a Rafale to fire a Meteor it has to be in the Air

What is the point if Rafale is at Ambala and F 16s are targetting Your Installations at Rajouri Poonch Uri Jammu

If LCA is on CAP along with MiG 29.
It can drive.them away.

Now the ROEs are also about firing First

Will you place a LR SAM within the MBRL range of the Enemy

IRST will also.work when you are in the Air like OLS 30 on Su 30 , At a certain altitude

Can a IRST give a " firing solution " if your Su 30 is at 15 K feet and the F 16 is at 40 K feet

SAR is for a ISR purposes

OTH radars are for long range Air Space Surveillance

Any thing else you want to add 🤣 to.the Mix

The Opening Strike will be with Cruise Missiles and followed by Anti Radiation Missiles for SEAD / DEAD

After that it is all about Endurance.

How many PLANES you have and how many sorties you can conduct.

In other words , " Surge Operations "
 
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_Anonymous_

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For a Rafale to fire a Meteor it has to be in the Air

What is the point if Rafale is at Ambala and F 16s are targetting Your Installations at Rajouri Poonch Uri Jammu
Oh I was completely ignorant of that point about aircrafts being in the air & in the vicinity. Thanks for enlightening me. BTW I just read Meteors are usually used against relatively slower moving targets. I guess that would be sub sonic drones or quad copters.

If LCA is on CAP along with MiG 29.
It can drive.them away.

But Sir, given the limited life of the MiG -29's , I read they're not used or preferred for CAP or even BARCAP during peace time . Add to that the fact that they're twin engined. Further, given that their radar signature isn't that well known & hence,they're preserved for an all our war scenario.

They didn't have much to do in the Kargil conflict too with most of the heavy lifting done by the Mirage - 2000 & the MiG-21. Ironically the Canberras were used for reconnaissance. But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.
Now the ROEs are also about firing First

Will you place a LR SAM within the MBRL range of the Enemy
Please enlighten us on what's the range of those MBRLs & while you're at it pls also do reproduce the SOP for such SAM teams in such cases. Quite obviously shoot & scoot is something alien in your doctrine.

But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.

IRST will also.work when you are in the Air like OLS 30 on Su 30 , At a certain altitude

Can a IRST give a " firing solution " if your Su 30 is at 15 K feet and the F 16 is at 40 K feet

SAR is for a ISR purposes
Aww gee. You seem in such a generous mood. I learnt so much today.

BTW - does ground controllers & our AEW's along with the PHALCON's & if need be the P-8i Poseidon figure in your Battleplans or is Su-30MKI expected to act as bowler, catcher & umpire here ? @Can a IRST give a " firing solution " if your Su 30 is at 15 K feet and the F 16 is at 40 K feet

SAR is for a ISR purposes

But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.

OTH radars are for long range Air Space Surveillance

Any thing else you want to add 🤣 to.the Mix
Sir,
This write up suggests location of sea based targets & low flying aircraft too.


I should have added HPR & LDR to the mix. 🤣@Any thing else you want to add 🤣 to.the Mix

But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.

The Opening Strike will be with Cruise Missiles and followed by Anti Radiation Missiles for SEAD / DEAD

After that it is all about Endurance.

How many PLANES you have and how many sorties you can conduct.

In other words , " Surge Operations "
Gee thanks Sir. I've learned so much today. ❤
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

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Oh I was completely ignorant of that point about aircrafts being in the air & in the vicinity. Thanks for enlightening me. BTW I just read Meteors are usually used against relatively slower moving targets. I guess that would be sub sonic drones or quad copters.



But Sir, given the limited life of the MiG -29's , I read they're not used or preferred for CAP or even BARCAP during peace time . Add to that the fact that they're twin engined. Further, given that their radar signature isn't that well known & hence,they're preserved for an all our war scenario.

They didn't have much to do in the Kargil conflict too with most of the heavy lifting done by the Mirage - 2000 & the MiG-21. Ironically the Canberras were used for reconnaissance. But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.

Please enlighten us on what's the range of those MBRLs & while you're at it pls also do reproduce the SOP for such SAM teams in such cases. Quite obviously shoot & scoot is something alien in your doctrine.

But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.


Aww gee. You seem in such a generous mood. I learnt so much today.

BTW - does ground controllers & our AEW's along with the PHALCON's & if need be the P-8i Poseidon figure in your Battleplans or is Su-30MKI expected to act as bowler, catcher & umpire here ? @Can a IRST give a " firing solution " if your Su 30 is at 15 K feet and the F 16 is at 40 K feet

SAR is for a ISR purposes

But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.


Sir,
This write up suggests location of sea based targets & low flying aircraft too.


I should have added HPR & LDR to the mix. 🤣@Any thing else you want to add 🤣 to.the Mix

But your knowledge definitely exceeds mine. Hence, I'd defer to you here.


Gee thanks Sir. I've learned so much today. ❤

We can have as many Ground Based Radars And AWACS as we want , BUT
They can NOT stop an enemy from
A First Strike

Even third class planes like Mirage V are used for Stand off Weapons

So for us the option is to." Strike First and Strike Hard " , Destroy Real Military assets of the enemy

Balakot like wishy washy operations only give the enemy " Gloating Rights "

A Minimum 5 day conflict must happen to Bring PAF to its knees
 
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_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Mumbai
We can have as many Ground Based Radars And AWACS as we want , BUT
They can NOT stop an enemy from
A First Strike
Nothing can stop any enemy from a first strike. Arguably in a hypothetical scenario if the Japanese decided they want to bomb Pearl Harbor again they can after assembling the necessary paraphernalia.

Even third class planes like Mirage V are used for Stand off Weapons
Sure . If the objective is any target will do for the purpose of a symbolic & may I add a shambolic victory even a Hawk carrying a SAAW will serve the purpose.

So for us the option is to." Strike First and Strike Hard " , Destroy Real Military assets of the enemy

Balakot like wishy washy operations only give the enemy " Gloating Rights "

A Minimum 5 day conflict must happen to Bring PAF to its knees
Pls refer to my original post which was with reference to the post immediately preceding it , which you happened to quote & triggered off this futile exchange.

You & myself are arguing on completely different points & on tangents, in case you haven't noticed .
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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Actually I quite like this optimism. No matter how inferior your fighter aircraft, if it's 2 or 3 times cheaper than the most advanced fighter in your or preferably in your enemy's arsenal, no problem. Just keep buying them in bulk. The more the merrier. Makes for a more productive turkey shoot. JF-17 manufacturers must be smiling ear to ear.

I sure hope Vayu Bhavan is reading this.

This cheap Russian weapons deal never happened.
We discussed it previously.
I remember one of the main reasons is we were continuing past deals ie buying Su 30 from year 2000 at the price and configuration in 2000 with escalation.
Any new deal would be cheaper.

But it never happened. Frigates, submarine lease Ak207 were all expensive only.

If it s ultra cheap , let's see how the Mig29 deal goes.
 
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Dawg-69

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Feb 23, 2021
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I have a funny question.

Is it possible to load up a Rafale with one IR MICA only, and one EM MICA only, one of both at the same time?

Then the IR MICA would be at the left wingtip, and the EM MICA would be at the right wingtip. Or vice versa.
 

sunstersun

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Dec 4, 2017
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Not necessarily. Russian jets have bigger sensors and more range and payload. The bigger size of their jets allows for quicker and cheaper upgrades as well.

Their cheap currency makes imports cheaper. Like the upfront cost of the Su-57 ($36M) is less than the LCA Mk1A ($42M). We can buy 3 Su-57s for the price of 1 Rafale. Even if the Russians sell the jet at a higher margin, we will still be able to buy 2 jets for each Rafale. For small orders, the Russian prices are unbeatable.

Well, I just meant from a geopolitical standpoint of course. Also, I don't think India has had that much of a good financial time with Russian weapons.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Now that it's in a newspaper, we can say it:
The Indian Rafales carry specially modified Hammer missiles due to high altitude targets, mountainous terrain and Chinese recently acquired Russian S-400 air defence systems. In fact, the French have offered to jointly develop Hammer and Meteor missiles with India with extended range and heavier payload.
So India has Super Hammer and Super Meteor.
 
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Lolwa

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Actually I quite like this optimism. No matter how inferior your fighter aircraft, if it's 2 or 3 times cheaper than the most advanced fighter in your or preferably in your enemy's arsenal, no problem. Just keep buying them in bulk. The more the merrier. Makes for a more productive turkey shoot. JF-17 manufacturers must be smiling ear to ear.

I sure hope Vayu Bhavan is reading this.
Unironically su 75 would be a good fit for us against the Chinese So not a bad product for us considering the opposite team does the same thing..
 
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_Anonymous_

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Unironically su 75 would be a good fit for us against the Chinese So not a bad product for us considering the opposite team does the same thing..
To begin with we don't even know for sure how the Su-57 would perform leave alone it's derivative which is a paper plane as of now . Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
 

Lolwa

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Now that it's in a newspaper, we can say it:

So India has Super Hammer and Super Meteor.
I think we might have joint programs with the French like we have with Israelis and Russians in future once our tech base modernises enough. So finally french can buy cheaper weapons😂..
To begin with we don't even know for sure how the Su-57 would perform leave alone it's derivative which is a paper plane as of now . Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Oh I think they will perform quite well. A squadrons of cheap "fifth" gen planes vs another squadron of cheap "fifth" gen planes both with similar levels of 90's electronics...
I think they will match the Chinese j20's very well...
 
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