Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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Oh sorry, I did not notice your question earlier. Perseus, the high-speed missile, will be coming soon. I guess the real details are secret. Anyhow, the new missile will be coming some time around 2030 - could be something that the Finns are looking at.

One problem with F-35 is that there is no center pylon. Like this:

View attachment 20218

So right now, Rafale is known to be getting a new high-speed missile, whether it is supersonic or hypersonic, remains to be seen. Such a weapon for F-35 is not planned. It seems like F-15EX is the platform of choice for hypersonic weapons for USAF.

Of course it is possible that they will put hypersonic weapons in the F-35. But they will probably not fit in the internal bays. Also, there is no center pylon, so it is not practical to load it with one large missile. It remains a possibility to put missiles on the wings in "beast mode". But how long would integration take...? Very long.
This weapon will only be fitted with a nuclear warhead (to avoid a risk from the ennemy side to confuse a nuc attack and a classical one : this is one reason why SCALP was prefered on a classical warhead ASMP)
CPFH of the SH is lower than the Hornet's according to the Americans.
What CPFH? If you understand LM it will be nearly free..... in a non foreseable time.... 2075? 2090? :ROFLMAO:
 

randomradio

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What CPFH? If you understand LM it will be nearly free..... in a non foreseable time.... 2075? 2090? :ROFLMAO:

As per this link, the F-35's CPFH in the US in 2020 was apparently $33000.

So $44000 in 2018. Then $37000 in 2019. $33000 in 2020. It might get difficult beyond that. But I won't be surprised if it breaches $30000 over the next 2 years.

This is probably why the Swiss trusted the $25000 figure.

When it comes to overall sustainment costs, I am guessing the changing of hot parts in the engine for the Rafale is much more frequent than on the F-35, hence the higher overall sustainment costs in the Swiss deal, even though Rafale's basic CPFH is lower than the F-35's.

The new F414EDE's hot parts' life is 4000 hours, whereas the one on M88-4E is apparently 800 hours. The F-35's could be even higher, plus the fact that it has only one engine. So, if France spends $2M every 800 hours on 2 engines versus the Americans spending $5M every 4000 hours on 1 engine, then the cost will favour the American engine in the long run. For an 8000-hour service life, France has to spend $36M whereas the Americans have to spend only $5M. In case the F135's hot parts survive 6000 hours, then not even that in the case of Switzerland and Finland. They can simply use the same engine for its entire service life without ever replacing the hot parts. $36M for 36 jets is $1.3B. Even if one claims the M88-4E's life is way more than 800 hours, the difference is still big.

Calculating costs can be very complicated because different jets save costs in different ways.
 

Herciv

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@randomradio
All figures are totally official.
As you can see in the link above F-18 and F-18ASH could be also very expensive in term of CPFH.
F-35 CPFH can only increase from the actual 38000 in US or 30000 in australien context.
 
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Saaho

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This weapon will only be fitted with a nuclear warhead (to avoid a risk from the ennemy side to confuse a nuc attack and a classical one : this is one reason why SCALP was prefered on a classical warhead ASMP)
In my very humble opinion ASMP is one of the best stand-off missile out there. Being developed in 1986, it is a wonderful weapon with extreme speed and long range of 300 KM. Its weight also makes it excellent air launched cruise missile. India's Brahmos NG for comparison is not even yet tested.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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The new F414EDE's hot parts' life is 4000 hours, whereas the one on M88-4E is apparently 800 hours.
This is a confusion: I would remind you that the Rafale's maintenance is "on condition", so there is no imperative life span. The 800 hours is the recommended interval between two inspections.

In 2001, they were talking about the interval between INSPECTIONS:

"This is why the engine initially had to be inspected every 150 hours, but in January 2001 this interval was raised to 500 hours, corresponding to roughly two/ three years of operational use. As experience builds up, it will be progressively extended to 800 hours or 1,000 hours, depending on the components. In comparison with the Rafale, when the Mirage 2000 entered service, the M53 had to be checked every 75 hours."

Inspections, by definition, are control operations carried out without removal or dismantling. This implies that the life of a module largely exceeds the time span of these inspections.
 

randomradio

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@randomradio
All figures are totally official.
As you can see in the link above F-18 and F-18ASH could be also very expensive in term of CPFH.
F-35 CPFH can only increase from the actual 38000 in US or 30000 in australien context.

Your link says CPFH is decreasing for the F-35 though. 61k to 33k to 18k?

In the overall context though, CPFH does rise as the jet gets older.
 

randomradio

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This is a confusion: I would remind you that the Rafale's maintenance is "on condition", so there is no imperative life span. The 800 hours is the recommended interval between two inspections.

In 2001, they were talking about the interval between INSPECTIONS:



Inspections, by definition, are control operations carried out without removal or dismantling. This implies that the life of a module largely exceeds the time span of these inspections.

Then do we know the lifespan of the hot parts?
 

randomradio

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Okay, since the hot parts lifespan is largely classified, it appears the one for cold parts is available for most engines in terms of Total Accumulated Cycles or TAC. And we can deduce something out of it.

The F100 is at 5000 cycles. The F110-129 stands at 6000 cycles. The F119 does 8650 cycles. The F135 ended up with 9400 cycles. The M88-4E manages 4000 cycles.

Implies the Rafale's engines have to be inspected 4.7 times together for F-35's one.

So the M88-4E's inspection time is 800 hours to F-35's 1900 hours.

If we assume the Swiss plan is to fly 150 hours a year on the F-35 and 180 on the Rafale, due to the roughly 20% reduction in flight hours, then the F-35's TAC ends only twice, whereas the Rafale's ends 6 times. But since it has 2 engines, the actual number is 12. This could generate a pretty decent cost difference.

Hopefully, there's an M88 upgrade planned that could see a higher TAC with F4. It's about time it gets one. Along with all the advertised features like INCAS, TRAGEDAC, DEDIRA, LEA etc.
 
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randomradio

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J-20 bases.png


So J-20 units have been raised in 4 bases as of this month. 2 are training units, Dingxin and Changzhou. The other two are operational units, Quzhou and Anshan. The Anshan base comes with a new engine type with LO features, 147KN. Even the older jets could be reengined with the WS-10C.

With 4 units raised, we are talking about at least 4 regiments of 24 jets each, we can speculate that at least 1 more regiment is in the process of being raised, followed by another within the same year, since the Chinese are capable of producing 48 jets a year.

So by the end of the year, we may see at least 1 J-20 regiment assigned to an air brigade in the WTC, with the other one likely along the Russian border, or worse, along the southern border close to India in the Southern Command.

This should be followed by 2 more regiments next year, which could take the total fleet to 8 regiments. That's as many as 192 J-20s at the minimum by the end of 2022, likely more than that since raising units takes time post delivery of jets.

From 2023 onwards, we may see the induction of J-20s with the definitive engine, 180KN, which will change the game completely. At best, 2024.

By 2028, even before we likely receive even 1 squadron of the Rafale F4.2, the Chinese will have completed the induction of the J-20C.
 
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sunstersun

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View attachment 20259

So J-20 units have been raised in 4 bases as of this month. 2 are training units, Dingxin and Changzhou. The other two are operational units, Quzhou and Anshan. The Anshan base comes with a new engine type with LO features, 147KN. Even the older jets could be reengined with the WS-10C.

With 4 units raised, we are talking about at least 4 regiments of 24 jets each, we can speculate that at least 1 more regiment is in the process of being raised, followed by another within the same year, since the Chinese are capable of producing 48 jets a year.

So by the end of the year, we may see at least 1 J-20 regiment assigned to an air brigade in the WTC, with the other one likely along the Russian border, or worse, along the southern border close to India in the Southern Command.

This should be followed by 2 more regiments next year, which could take the total fleet to 8 regiments. That's as many as 192 J-20s at the minimum by the end of 2022, likely more than that since raising units takes time post delivery of jets.

From 2023 onwards, we may see the induction of J-20s with the definitive engine, 180KN, which will change the game completely. At best, 2024.

By 2028, even before we likely receive even 1 squadron of the Rafale F4.2, the Chinese will have completed the induction of the J-20C.

Doesn't look good does it. China is quite scary.
 

randomradio

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Doesn't look good does it. China is quite scary.

The issue isn't the build speed. This was always expected since they have been doing this for over a decade now.

The issue is the quality, and it appears their quality has been severely underestimated. And this isn't an issue for India alone, it's a major issue for even America, since the Chinese spending is not being matched within the same time period.

People question Chinese electronics capability while not realising that the electronics industry is being led by civilians, not by the military. And civilians are making generational changes every few years. Plus the fact that govts and militaries can ignore IPR when it comes to national security. So the Chinese hardware is definitely top notch and comparable with anything being made in the West or Japan.

Traditionally, the West had electronics superiority over the SU. But the SU made up for the difference by using higher grade technologies. So when the US was making excellent analog electronics for tanks in the 60s, the Soviets simply introduced digital electronics. Similarly, while the Americans made excellent mechanical scan radars in the 80s, the SU introduced PESAs. Now we may see a situation where your excellent GaAs tech is superceded by the characteristically superior GaN tech by the Chinese. It doesn't matter if your GaAs tech is better than their GaAs tech if they aren't even using it.

Furthermore, while some militaries need to control their budget, the Chinese have no issues. The Chinese are bringing in new hardware every 5 years. They produce 250 jets in a 5-year period, something that's taken 25+ years for the French. So a hardware refresh for the Chinese is very rapid from our perspective because of their superior finances.

And finally, their geographical advantage over America in the Pacific. So, even if the J-20 is slightly inferior to the upcoming F-22 MLU, the F-22 doesn't have the numbers or endurance to match the Chinese jets over Taiwan. This gives them parity, so it's likely that the US will be fighting in contested airspace for the very first time. For example, the F-22 from Okinawa cannot hit the J-20 air base in Quzhou, it's too far away. But the J-20 can hit Okinawa, no problem.

And the next 5 years is when we are expected to go to war over both Ladakh and Taiwan. For both US and India, our respective next gen technologies are expected only between 2028-38, with the Rafale F4.2/AMCA and NGAD.

So this is something you guys should be worried about as well.
 

Shekhar Singh

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Dec 8, 2017
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The issue isn't the build speed. This was always expected since they have been doing this for over a decade now.

The issue is the quality, and it appears their quality has been severely underestimated. And this isn't an issue for India alone, it's a major issue for even America, since the Chinese spending is not being matched within the same time period.

People question Chinese electronics capability while not realising that the electronics industry is being led by civilians, not by the military. And civilians are making generational changes every few years. Plus the fact that govts and militaries can ignore IPR when it comes to national security. So the Chinese hardware is definitely top notch and comparable with anything being made in the West or Japan.

Traditionally, the West had electronics superiority over the SU. But the SU made up for the difference by using higher grade technologies. So when the US was making excellent analog electronics for tanks in the 60s, the Soviets simply introduced digital electronics. Similarly, while the Americans made excellent mechanical scan radars in the 80s, the SU introduced PESAs. Now we may see a situation where your excellent GaAs tech is superceded by the characteristically superior GaN tech by the Chinese. It doesn't matter if your GaAs tech is better than their GaAs tech if they aren't even using it.

Furthermore, while some militaries need to control their budget, the Chinese have no issues. The Chinese are bringing in new hardware every 5 years. They produce 250 jets in a 5-year period, something that's taken 25+ years for the French. So a hardware refresh for the Chinese is very rapid from our perspective because of their superior finances.

And finally, their geographical advantage over America in the Pacific. So, even if the J-20 is slightly inferior to the upcoming F-22 MLU, the F-22 doesn't have the numbers or endurance to match the Chinese jets over Taiwan. This gives them parity, so it's likely that the US will be fighting in contested airspace for the very first time. For example, the F-22 from Okinawa cannot hit the J-20 air base in Quzhou, it's too far away. But the J-20 can hit Okinawa, no problem.

And the next 5 years is when we are expected to go to war over both Ladakh and Taiwan. For both US and India, our respective next gen technologies are expected only between 2028-38, with the Rafale F4.2/AMCA and NGAD.

So this is something you guys should be worried about as well.
Then we must prioritize for quick development of runway damaging long range missiles.
 

randomradio

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Then we must prioritize for quick development of runway damaging long range missiles.

We already have such weapons. It will improve a lot once ITCM is inducted over the next few years. But this is not enough to counter the J-20 since they do not need a lot of aircraft flying anyway. The J-20C can fly for a long time and can use air bases that are very away. So destroying runways won't be enough.

Furthermore, with 2 massive 180KN engines, the J-20C can easily operate from the plateau. The J-20 is lighter than the MKI and will likely need lesser fuel to fly the same distance. With such a massive engine, with 8T of fuel and 2T of weapons, it will have a TWR of 1.2-1.3 on the ground. That's more than enough for it to operate on the plateau with A2G loads. Even with a 35-40% reduction in thrust, it will still have a TWR of 0.8 on the ground. To put it in perspective, the MKI needs only a TWR of 0.7 to fly with full fuel and 6T of weapons when operating from plains. It won't come as a surprise to me when the J-20C lifts all of its internal fuel from the plateau, along with a full load of internal weapons

Basically, in 5 short years, the Chinese will have a large fleet of aircraft that are highly stealthy and can largely ignore the disadvantages of the terrain on their side. Notwithstanding the fact that they will also have a massive fleet of Y-20 based tankers as well.

The main counter to a J-20C is an equivalent or superior aircraft. If we are lucky, TRAGEDAC, INCAS and DEDIRA will be fully implemented with F4.1 so that we can ugrade all our Rafale F3Rs to F4.1 standard before the J-20C comes into the picture. This will give us some capability against a stealth aircraft, which will at least allow us to put up a fight. If not, I doubt the F3R will be survivable against it. All our other options, be it the F4.2 or F-35 or Su-57 or anything else, will not arrive in time.

The IAF had originally planned well. We should have received all 189 Rafales from 2015 to 2024. And we should have started receiving FGFA from 2023 onwards. AMCA and FGFA Mk2 would have followed in the 2030s. But what's more likely to happen is after a war with China within the next five years, we are going to say, "Agar yeh hota... Agar woh hota..."
 
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Shekhar Singh

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Dec 8, 2017
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417
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We already have such weapons. It will improve a lot once ITCM is inducted over the next few years. But this is not enough to counter the J-20 since they do not need a lot of aircraft flying anyway. The J-20C can fly for a long time and can use air bases that are very away. So destroying runways won't be enough.

Furthermore, with 2 massive 180KN engines, the J-20C can easily operate from the plateau. The J-20 is lighter than the MKI and will likely need lesser fuel to fly the same distance. With such a massive engine, with 8T of fuel and 2T of weapons, it will have a TWR of 1.2-1.3 on the ground. That's more than enough for it to operate on the plateau with A2G loads. Even with a 35-40% reduction in thrust, it will still have a TWR of 0.8 on the ground. To put it in perspective, the MKI needs only a TWR of 0.7 to fly with full fuel and 6T of weapons when operating from plains. It won't come as a surprise to me when the J-20C lifts all of its internal fuel from the plateau, along with a full load of internal weapons

Basically, in 5 short years, the Chinese will have a large fleet of aircraft that are highly stealthy and can largely ignore the disadvantages of the terrain on their side. Notwithstanding the fact that they will also have a massive fleet of Y-20 based tankers as well.

The main counter to a J-20C is an equivalent or superior aircraft. If we are lucky, TRAGEDAC, INCAS and DEDIRA will be fully implemented with F4.1 so that we can ugrade all our Rafale F3Rs to F4.1 standard before the J-20C comes into the picture. This will give us some capability against a stealth aircraft, which will at least allow us to put up a fight. If not, I doubt the F3R will be survivable against it. All our other options, be it the F4.2 or F-35 or Su-57 or anything else, will not arrive in time.

The IAF had originally planned well. We should have received all 189 Rafales from 2015 to 2024. And we should have started receiving FGFA from 2023 onwards. AMCA and FGFA Mk2 would have followed in the 2030s. But what's more likely to happen is after a war with China within the next five years, we are going to say, "Agar yeh hota... Agar woh hota..."
Why should we only try to counter J20. If we develop the same strategy to damage china with other weapons like long range precision missiles. Like "Tu J20 leke aayega to mai missile se pitwaunga"
 

thinkingcap81

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Jun 2, 2019
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Sekharwa tum bhi kis burbak ki baaton mein aawat ho . Jab bharatiya sarkar is samay aisa kauno khatre ki ghanti naahi bajaawat hain toh koi toh kaaran hoga ya nahi. Yadi yeh J-20 adhunik pushpak biman hain toh ab tak aur 36 nag ke order Dassault ke paas ek varsh pehle hi pahunch jaata.

Yeh sab khabrein tab padte hain jab kabz lagaa hota hain. Gharelu nuska hain kabz se chutkaara paane ke liye.
Perhaps he's wrong, or perhaps he's not so bad as you think, i don't know really. But on 27 Feb IAF fell short in terms of missile tech which was a revelation to us commoners. The Chinese have better stuff than Pak's F16 blk52. So 36 Rafale's won't help us much in a actual war-type situation against PLAAF. Even if there's no war, political and military decisions depend on the capabilities of the adversary.
 

thinkingcap81

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Jun 2, 2019
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We already have such weapons. It will improve a lot once ITCM is inducted over the next few years. But this is not enough to counter the J-20 since they do not need a lot of aircraft flying anyway. The J-20C can fly for a long time and can use air bases that are very away. So destroying runways won't be enough.

Furthermore, with 2 massive 180KN engines, the J-20C can easily operate from the plateau. The J-20 is lighter than the MKI and will likely need lesser fuel to fly the same distance. With such a massive engine, with 8T of fuel and 2T of weapons, it will have a TWR of 1.2-1.3 on the ground. That's more than enough for it to operate on the plateau with A2G loads. Even with a 35-40% reduction in thrust, it will still have a TWR of 0.8 on the ground. To put it in perspective, the MKI needs only a TWR of 0.7 to fly with full fuel and 6T of weapons when operating from plains. It won't come as a surprise to me when the J-20C lifts all of its internal fuel from the plateau, along with a full load of internal weapons

Basically, in 5 short years, the Chinese will have a large fleet of aircraft that are highly stealthy and can largely ignore the disadvantages of the terrain on their side. Notwithstanding the fact that they will also have a massive fleet of Y-20 based tankers as well.

The main counter to a J-20C is an equivalent or superior aircraft. If we are lucky, TRAGEDAC, INCAS and DEDIRA will be fully implemented with F4.1 so that we can ugrade all our Rafale F3Rs to F4.1 standard before the J-20C comes into the picture. This will give us some capability against a stealth aircraft, which will at least allow us to put up a fight. If not, I doubt the F3R will be survivable against it. All our other options, be it the F4.2 or F-35 or Su-57 or anything else, will not arrive in time.

The IAF had originally planned well. We should have received all 189 Rafales from 2015 to 2024. And we should have started receiving FGFA from 2023 onwards. AMCA and FGFA Mk2 would have followed in the 2030s. But what's more likely to happen is after a war with China within the next five years, we are going to say, "Agar yeh hota... Agar woh hota..."
The Chinese tech advancements means that even if they give some stuff to Pak, it will upset our calculations even if that Pak stuff is inferior to the Rafale. Other than the Quad we don't have much of an option for the next decade or so. War is also a political game; the military is one aspect of war.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Perhaps he's wrong, or perhaps he's not so bad as you think, i don't know really. But on 27 Feb IAF fell short in terms of missile tech which was a revelation to us commoners. The Chinese have better stuff than Pak's F16 blk52. So 36 Rafale's won't help us much in a actual war-type situation against PLAAF. Even if there's no war, political and military decisions depend on the capabilities of the adversary.
The points expressed in my post are much more logical as opposed to the assessment of Chinese stealth fighters about which none of us know anything apart from what's in the public domain.

Hence , some ppl take it to mean anything goes. One can even claim by 2030 that the 187 KN x 2 engines power generated are required for DEW . Where's the harm in stating that?


In the absence of any information it helps to see how nations directly affected by these developments are responding . Leave aside India , Do you see any such reports about the abilities of the J-20 emanating from the US or SoKo or Japan or even Taiwan . What do these tell you ?

There are many ways of gauging the capabilities & efficacy of certain platforms or armaments. What I've submitted is just one of the ways in the absence of any direct information about the subject or intelligence leaks or actual performance !!