Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

randomradio

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It's a guy called "Michael Winter" on Quora. He seems to have a reputation for exaggarating things on Quora, so I don't know what to make out of it. It is VERY HARD for a layman to figure out what is true about EW.

Here is some cut-and-paste of his writing:

"SPECTRA is much more than an ECM suite. It took about 40 years of researches to create its active stealth part, it started at the ONERA in 1960, with the goal of making French ballistic missiles launches undetected. In fact, the first application was the fact that France was the first country on Earth introducing a class of stealth navy-vessels, the La Fayette class of frigates.
---
Rafale’s stealth is already long more efficient than the US-used stealth since the Soviet theory of physical diffraction (cooked by Petr Ufimtsev in 1962. He also wrote a very interesting book about how countering the stealth he himself created!) is USELESS AGAINST RADARS within the E-band (2–3 GHz) or lower frequencies, in other terms, any VHF or UHF radar defeats the US/China-used stealth…

It’s different with Rafale’s active cancellation which is also active against VHF or UHF while it also allows to “delete” the RCS of external payloads---"


-On CF's blog, one guy says that Gripen has built-in jamming against VHF radars. Well, active cancellation is not necessarily the same thing as "jamming". But if Gripen can do it, then Rafale can.

I don't know myself! I am just trying to get some idea from stuff I find with google.

If the Rafale carries antennas for UHF jamming, then it will be able to perform active cancellation in that frequency. There's no doubt about that.

But the Rafale F4 will definitely carry receivers for UHF since 0.5GHz to 40GHz is the future of EW suites along with ultra-wideband arrays.

Compared to the standard French Rafale, the Indian Rafale comes with additional jammers.
 

Dawg-69

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Found a bit more info, link here:


"F4... SPECTRA: detection and jamming extensions towards the low and high bands to overcome triangulation methods"

You can click the flag thingy and then you will find the same page in English language.

I am not exactly sure what that means. I know the basics of triangulation, yes, but in this context not sure what it means.

-Then let me explain a bit more backgrounds of HX. So, like, everywhere these days, we have in Finland a nationalistic camp. These are the "True Finns".

It might not be apparent to outsiders at first, but the "True Finns" are very very much against everything that has to do with Sweden or Swedish language. They would like for Finland to be a purely Finnish country with one language only. Now Finland is "bilingual", with Finnish AND Swedish being the official languages. True Finns don't like that.

So the True Finns will by default be AGAINST co-operation with Sweden, they will be AGAINST the Gripen, and so on. They probably mostly support F-35 for HX.

I cannot agree with the True Finns, because I see the benefit of Nordic co-operation. I also see the benefits of all European co-operation.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Aviation expert Georges Bridel: F-35 purchase would be incomprehensible

Georges Bridel / 06/27/2021 The US fighter jet is good for networked bombing attacks, but bad for Switzerland, says the long-time fighter specialist.
Ed. In response to various publications on fighter jet procurement in the Infosperber, the internationally known Swiss aviation expert Georges Bridel sent us a pointed statement on the controversial arms business. Infosperber puts them up for discussion in full.


Procurement F-35: an incomprehensible preference of the DDPS​

In the ongoing discussion about the procurement of a new fighter jet, it is largely only about the aircraft types available for selection. The context, that is, the security and defense policy framework conditions that are essential for Switzerland, is lost.

Exclusion of the security policy context

The requirements of modern air warfare were addressed with mention of the worldwide dangers. But there is largely no realistic classification in the Swiss context: What specific scenarios is Switzerland affected by? This evidently gives rise to priorities that have not been discussed in politics either. For example air-to-ground use. In particular, it is also about the inevitable division of tasks between us and the neighbors, how the most efficient security can be achieved together.

F-35 with a different profile than what we need it to be

The deficit of the F-35 in the air police: A rapid intervention (technical jargon "QRA") fulfills the F35 far less well than the European competitors Eurofighter and Rafale. The time required by the F-35 to intercept an aircraft at 11,000 meters with a climb to 11 kilometers (typical flight altitude of commercial aircraft) and subsequent tracking (supersonic) is at least 50 percent higher than that of a high-performance standard fighter. This takes over 1 minute longer compared to the competition. In aerial warfare, these are ages. The F-35 could not be procured based on this criterion alone: the competition literally flies away from it. The stealth capability of the F-35 plays only a minor role in defensive air defense.

The F-35 is designed for complex and networked air-to-ground air war scenarios (bomb attacks by the editor) with several aircraft. Such an F-35 fleet depends on the support of a variety of other means, such as reconnaissance aircraft, early warning aircraft ("AWACS"), high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft ("HALE"), tanker aircraft, satellites and - depending on the threat in the target area - escort fighters. This is a classic NATO alliance in the NATO scenario. Switzerland will never be able to afford that in a sovereign manner.

Apart from the key question already mentioned: For which Swiss scenarios actually? This would only make sense if the Swiss Air Force also took part in “out-of-area” missions (deployments far beyond the national borders, possibly with the relocation of the aircraft. D. Ed.) And for your own safety together with the other Europeans on the periphery of Europe, namely where real military threats arise - and not over our territory.

Extensive dependence on the USA

As part of the above-mentioned NATO integration, a complete dependency on US industry and the US Department of Defense (DoD) arises. The control particularly affects the most important cross-linking agent, the highly secret "MADL" Datalink. This means that the F-35 is not directly compatible with other European aircraft such as the Eurofighter, Rafale, F-16, Gripen, etc. - but only to a limited extent via the conventional so-called Link-16.
  • In contrast to the operation of the F-16 in the smaller NATO countries, the USA operates the F-35 operation exclusively with each individual country and thus hinders the cooperation and the exchange of data with one another.
Opaque cost calculation?

The report in the NZZ, according to which the F-35 (according to Armasuisse) has much lower operating costs than the competition, is apparently based on the simulation of the F-35, which saves flight hours.

On what basis is this result based? According to reports, based on analyzes by the manufacturer Lockheed-Martin. If the three fellow competitors were not asked for such an analysis, the VBS would have a real problem. Because all competitors have extensive simulation facilities with which the flight hours and thus the operating costs of the entire fleet can be reduced considerably. If each individual ability were assessed using such a calculation, unfavorable properties of the F-35 could be offset against the lower flight hour costs and thus put into perspective. That would be absurd.

Now, when it comes to operating costs, it is never possible to rely on the manufacturer alone. Is manufacturer A more honest than manufacturer B? Information on the future development of flight hour costs based on statistics or analyzes must be available to all competitors and presented in a completely transparent manner.

What happens if these costs later turn out to be unexpectedly higher than in the offer? It is completely impossible to provide prospective cost information in relation to the ongoing development of the system (so-called "upgrades"). As the entire trade press and the pronouncements of national control authorities can be seen, the big costs arise there - and from that the whole controversy up to the filthy naming of the F-35 program ("A piece of shit" the editor.) By a former US -Minister of Defense.

An example: The upgrade block 4 for the 48 F-35s of the RAF / Royal Air Force (software, weapons integration) alone costs between 1 and 2 billion GBP (pound sterling). By the way: The UK cannot afford more than the 48 F-35Bs for the time being and thus equip the two large aircraft carriers with only 24 units each. However, this minus a number of aircraft that have to stay on land for maintenance, training and upgrades anyway. That's pretty poor!

If the DDPS relies only on the manufacturer's information, the whole exercise is not productive.

Missing control instruments?

These as yet unconfirmed facts raise questions about the professionalism of the evaluation. What is the state of the control bodies for armaments procurement? How was it possible that all authorities (Armasuisse, army staff, politics, parliaments) waved through the procurement of Gripen without resistance, even though it was clearly proven back then (2013) that this procurement was not feasible? We should have received the first plane in 2018. Now the first aircraft in Sweden will not be delivered until 2023 (according to the Swedish Air Force in January 2021). This would have doubled our delivery times, namely from 5 to 10 years. It's not about the quality of the Gripen E, which would have been good enough for our services if it existed ...

Obviously, there is a lack of the necessary control bodies in Switzerland as they exist abroad: in the USA the GAO (General Accounting Office) and the congress hearings, in Germany the Federal Audit Office and the very effective parliamentary committees for defense and budget. In France there are a number of control bodies such as the Cour des Comptes, the Inspection générale des Armées and parliamentary commissions.
In Switzerland there are security and financial policy commissions and committees. But the control instruments are obviously underdeveloped.

Conclusion
  • The debate about the new aircraft today is far too focused on air warfare and air-to-ground. For decades, however, the "emergency" of the Swiss Air Force has been the responsibility of the air police and the temporary establishment of protection zones at international conferences and major events.
There are always warlike scenarios, but on the periphery of Europe. Air war-like conditions over Western Europe are unlikely. The transition from air police to air warfare is fluid. In any case, the air war, in which Switzerland is affected and possibly plays a role, requires close and fully established cooperation with the neighbors. Even if the networked F-35 aircraft promise a high level of effectiveness in air-to-ground operations (bombing by the editor), it is incomprehensible that the preference for the F-35 is now primarily to serve this air force capability. This preference was only noted as a marginal phenomenon in the previous drafts, including referendums. The evaluation of the fighter aircraft should be scrutinized by independent professional companies in strategy, technology, business, military issues and politics. Because it cannot be assumed that politics and the people will be convinced by a questionable F-35 template.
 
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randomradio

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Found a bit more info, link here:


"F4... SPECTRA: detection and jamming extensions towards the low and high bands to overcome triangulation methods"

You can click the flag thingy and then you will find the same page in English language.

I am not exactly sure what that means. I know the basics of triangulation, yes, but in this context not sure what it means.

-Then let me explain a bit more backgrounds of HX. So, like, everywhere these days, we have in Finland a nationalistic camp. These are the "True Finns".

It might not be apparent to outsiders at first, but the "True Finns" are very very much against everything that has to do with Sweden or Swedish language. They would like for Finland to be a purely Finnish country with one language only. Now Finland is "bilingual", with Finnish AND Swedish being the official languages. True Finns don't like that.

So the True Finns will by default be AGAINST co-operation with Sweden, they will be AGAINST the Gripen, and so on. They probably mostly support F-35 for HX.

I cannot agree with the True Finns, because I see the benefit of Nordic co-operation. I also see the benefits of all European co-operation.

It's probably lost in translation.

These True Finns need to be in sufficient numbers to influence anything.
 

safriz

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1624895953699.png


1624892248903.png



Yeh tou lolwa ho gaya.

PAF Thunders and Qatari Rafale together at Ex Anatolian eagle.
Also group photo after joint mission.
 
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AbRaj

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View attachment 20095

View attachment 20096


Yeh tou lolwa ho gaya.

PAF Thunders and Qatari Rafale together at Ex Anatolian eagle.
Also group photo after joint mission.
Bilkul janab. Yesterday I had a race with a GLS 450 with by Santro. I too am feeling quite elated that now I “know” the Merc from “ inside out”. Even my barber too is feeling like he now knows the GLS inside out.
 

safriz

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Bilkul janab. Yesterday I had a race with a GLS 450 with by Santro. I too am feeling quite elated that now I “know” the Merc from “ inside out”. Even my barber too is feeling like he now knows the GLS inside out.
Dil kay behlaanay ko ghalib.
Yeh khayaal accha hay.
 

_Anonymous_

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View attachment 20095

View attachment 20096


Yeh tou lolwa ho gaya.

PAF Thunders and Qatari Rafale together at Ex Anatolian eagle.
Also group photo after joint mission.
Iska kya faayda hoga PAF ko , yeh bhi zaraa batlaaiye , maamu .

It's one thing for India to exercise with the Israeli AF , USAF & Singapore AF getting to know the F-16s more intimately & quite another for PAF to know the Rafales on a similar level.

You'd end up losing your remaining peace of mind , trust me. The last time you encountered the IAF , you sent a quarter of your functioning jets to battle 4 IAF jets yet managed to lose an F-16 - your premier jet cum work horse to our antiquated way past it's shelf life MiG-21 .

What will you do this time ? Send your entire fleet to face 4 Rafales ?
 

Saaho

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Yeh tou lolwa ho gaya.

PAF Thunders and Qatari Rafale together at Ex Anatolian eagle.
Also group photo after joint mission.
India regularly flies against F-16s in many flying exercises. India was given a very deep analysis of the plane. And yet Pakistan keeps on operating F-16. Heck, PAF will buy more F-16 if they are available for sale to it.
Then why should India not fly Rafale?
 
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jk007

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India regularly flies against F-16s in many flying exercises. India was given a very deep analysis of the plane. And yet Pakistan keeps on operating F-16. Heck, PAF will buy more F-16 if they are available for sale to it.
Then why should India not fly Rafale?
Guys;

I am Indian who happens to read in PDF (forum in Internet - peddling extreme hatred for India & Indians). please forgive my ignorance, and answer these questions. Please do not be jingoistic:

a) how come IAF did not have secure communication (SDRs) with / between the aircrafts that are sent to counter the invading PAF? Our aircraft got jammed. Is this not a huge lacunae on behalf of IAF? How many heads rolled?
b) Feb-2019 was a skirmish, what would have happened if IAF went to war with no SDRs?
c) How many missiles did su-30 + m-2000 launch at PAF? @vstol Jockey said that IAF did not launch missiles owing to restrictive SOPs. Is having SOPs that restrict firing missiles when they are fired upon another big lacuna? How many heads rolled?
d) will any modern airforce not have secure communication like SDR and go to war? French airforce? Singapore airforce? etc
e) why did IAF start making Su-30 compatible with Israeli + French missiles after feb-2019? What were they doing before then?
f) If someone believes that IAF is found wanting when they came face to face with PAF, is that wrong?
g) Pakistanis claim our awacs coverage is not enough / good. Any truth in that?

Please note that I am not saying that IAF is useless. But the fact that IAF has sent aircraft without SDRs + without proper missiles (su-30) is unforgivable (my opinion).

Again - my knowledge is limited. So, please enlighten me. Also, I do not believe in PAF is better than IAF. They have better propaganda. However, I do believe PAF showed deficiencies of IAF on that day. Anything wrong with that opinion?

I believe war is serious business with so scope for IFs, BUTs & "had it beens" etc etc

French members - what is your opinion on response by IAF , when PAF came in?
 
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randomradio

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Guys;

I am Indian who reads in PDF. please forgive my ignorance, and answer these questions. Please do not be jingoistic:

a) how come IAF did not have secure communication (SDRs) with / between the aircrafts that are sent to counter the invading PAF? Our aircraft got jammed. Is this not a huge lacunae on behalf of IAF? How many heads rolled?

Only 2 countries operate SDRs in fighter jets today, Israel and India.

b) Feb-2019 was a skirmish, what would have happened if IAF went to war with no SDRs?

We would have gone to war with older tech, like any other air force.

d) will any modern airforce not have secure communication like SDR and go to war? French airforce? Singapore airforce? etc

Right now, no one else has it operational. Not even NATO. It's probably the same with China and Russia, but it's difficult to say with all the secrecy involved.

e) why did IAF start making Su-30 compatible with Israeli + French missiles after feb-2019? What were they doing before then?

These missiles didn't exist, they were either immature or in the middle of supply or in development at the time.

f) If someone believes that IAF is found wanting when they came face to face with PAF, is that wrong?

It's wrong and right at the same time. Any air force wishes for an unfair fight and the PAF created an unfair advantage for themselves, but they still failed, so we had enough capability to counter them.

We could have had better missiles, but they were simply not available or were introduced far too recently to have made a difference. It was only in 2017 that Derby ER and RVV-SD actually became mature enough to be ordered. It takes quite sometime before an order can be placed after relevant tests and studies. Meteor and AMRAAM missiles were obviously not available for Russian aircraft. The IAF was actually trying to get the Meteor for MKI while holding back on the Derby ER as a safety option in case the Meteor option failed, which it did. So this should also have contributed to the delays.

So the IAF were equipped with the best missiles available at the time. Mirages had the MICA. MKIs and Mig-29s had the RVV-AE and R-27E. Mig-21 had the RVV-AE. Today the MKIs and Mig-29s have RVV-SD and Astra Mk1. The status of the Derby ER is still unknown.

g) Pakistanis claim our awacs coverage is not enough / good. Any truth in that?

True and false. We have more than enough AWACS when dealing with Pak alone, but not enough for both Pak and China. During Balakot, we had 2 AWACS onstation at the time, both Phalcon and Netra.
 
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vstol Jockey

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c) How many missiles did su-30 + m-2000 launch at PAF? @vstol Jockey said that IAF did not launch missiles owing to restrictive SOPs. Is having SOPs that restrict firing missiles when they are fired upon another big lacuna? How many heads rolled?
IAF did not fire missiles in the initial stage due to restrictions imposed. but once they tried to attack our installations and intrude into our boundary and fired missiles at SU-30MKIs, the full rules of war became applicable. It was for this reason that Abhi was able to shoot down an F-16. One more problem was that SU-30MKI were at about 30k feet while the F-16s were higher at 40K feet so SU-30MKI did not get the launch solution for their missiles.
 
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Saaho

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IAF did not fire missiles in the initial stage due to restrictions imposed. but once they tried to attack our installations and intrude into our boundary and fired missiles at SU-30MKIs, the full rules of war became applicable. It was for this reason that Abhi was able to shoot down an F-16. One more problem was that SU-30MKI were at about 30k feet while the F-16s were higher at 40K feet so SU-30MKI did not get the launch solution for their missiles.
I always wonder, what will happen in pilots in IAF start disregarding these RoEs completely vis a vis Pakistan. Will any Indian government dare punish them?
 

AbRaj

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I always wonder, what will happen in pilots in IAF start disregarding these RoEs completely vis a vis Pakistan. Will any Indian government dare punish them?
ROE was a sham to hide the collective failure. Any sane person can se through it.
Which ROE allows IAF to bomb deep inside Pax ?
Fact is they never expected that PAF will retaliate so quickly. It was total chaos on 27 with severe lack of coordination and readiness to tackle the well planned counter attack . Like COVID 19 first wave all were elated that how easy we performed on 26 air raid and then similar to second wave, caught pants down on 27.
Ideally our Air defenses should’ve engaged the lumbering targets Mirage III provides and then should have deployed sufficient numbers of air assets including all time ready AWACS coverage.

If I’m not wrong, they selected that time in early morning because IAF CAP duty ends during this time and another group take over the charge.
 

Hydra

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Guys;

I am Indian who happens to read in PDF (forum in Internet - peddling extreme hatred for India & Indians). please forgive my ignorance, and answer these questions. Please do not be jingoistic:

a) how come IAF did not have secure communication (SDRs) with / between the aircrafts that are sent to counter the invading PAF? Our aircraft got jammed. Is this not a huge lacunae on behalf of IAF? How many heads rolled?
b) Feb-2019 was a skirmish, what would have happened if IAF went to war with no SDRs?
c) How many missiles did su-30 + m-2000 launch at PAF? @vstol Jockey said that IAF did not launch missiles owing to restrictive SOPs. Is having SOPs that restrict firing missiles when they are fired upon another big lacuna? How many heads rolled?
d) will any modern airforce not have secure communication like SDR and go to war? French airforce? Singapore airforce? etc
e) why did IAF start making Su-30 compatible with Israeli + French missiles after feb-2019? What were they doing before then?
f) If someone believes that IAF is found wanting when they came face to face with PAF, is that wrong?
g) Pakistanis claim our awacs coverage is not enough / good. Any truth in that?

Please note that I am not saying that IAF is useless. But the fact that IAF has sent aircraft without SDRs + without proper missiles (su-30) is unforgivable (my opinion).

Again - my knowledge is limited. So, please enlighten me. Also, I do not believe in PAF is better than IAF. They have better propaganda. However, I do believe PAF showed deficiencies of IAF on that day. Anything wrong with that opinion?

I believe war is serious business with so scope for IFs, BUTs & "had it beens" etc etc

French members - what is your opinion on response by IAF , when PAF came in?
In any battle, you are supposed to fight with what you had in your inventory, thats how they are trained to do. Sadly our politicians didn't understand this.
 

thinkingcap81

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ROE was a sham to hide the collective failure. Any sane person can se through it.
Which ROE allows IAF to bomb deep inside Pax ?
Fact is they never expected that PAF will retaliate so quickly. It was total chaos on 27 with severe lack of coordination and readiness to tackle the well planned counter attack . Like COVID 19 first wave all were elated that how easy we performed on 26 air raid and then similar to second wave, caught pants down on 27.
Ideally our Air defenses should’ve engaged the lumbering targets Mirage III provides and then should have deployed sufficient numbers of air assets including all time ready AWACS coverage.

If I’m not wrong, they selected that time in early morning because IAF CAP duty ends during this time and another group take over the charge.
Sometimes i wonder whether we actually bombed anything worthwhile in Balakot or even if we did what did we actually bomb? Perhaps it was intended to be a more forceful message from our side, and we did bomb some building which PA obviously hid because they did not take anyone there for a few months.

As you said we did not believe that Pak would retaliate so soon. We were lucky to thwart their intentions.

I think that we should not have made claims of 250-300 wannabe terrorists being killed.

Anyways this is not the thread for this discussion. @Ashwin will delete my post.
 

AbRaj

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Sir , Right now Pakistanis are having a very good look at Qatari Rafales

Assuming that Pakistan gets complete
Access to Spectra and RBE 2 AESA
How will it Affect IAF future operations
So Modi ji’s plan to bomb Bahawalpur riding Rafale vimaan is cancelled now given Pakistanis know rafale vimaan “inside out”

So no more “Rafele hota to xyz hota” anymore.

Ab tera kya hoga kaliya 😀😀😀
 

thinkingcap81

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Jun 2, 2019
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So Modi ji’s plan to bomb Bahawalpur riding Rafale vimaan is cancelled now given Pakistanis know rafale vimaan “inside out”

So no more “Rafele hota to xyz hota” anymore.

Ab tera kya hoga kaliya 😀😀😀
Modi-Shah will slip on amir-oil (rich oil) supplied by @Picdelamirand-oil . JFT blk3 will blast Rafale because PAF supposedly retains first-shoot capability :p and keep PDF boys desirous of giving us :coffee:.