Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Picdelamirand-oil

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Rather than a contract, that's just an IGA.
It is quite common in large and complex deals to sign a " preliminary sales agreement " which sets out the main terms of the transaction and lists all the work that remains to be done, followed a few months later by the formal closing (with payment of the deposit and start of production) when all the pre-conditions are met.

In the business world, the preliminary sales agreement is a very detailed contract during which the lawyers of each party sign tons of documents (to justify that such and such a thing has been done, to prove the good reception of certain documents etc...).

Here, they had to define at least the price, the quantities, the delivery deadlines, the amount of the offsets to be contracted, the conditions of technology transfer, the terms of maintenance, the penalties in case of breach of the agreement and the "secret" clauses of military collaboration with France (e.g.: sharing or not of the data bank for Spectra) On the buyer's side, they probably still have to finalize their financing (signing of loan contracts) and negotiate certain other parts of the deal. On the seller's side, they probably have to finalize their agreements with local manufacturers, create local companies if necessary, do the paperwork...

As long as the money hasn't changed hands yet, it can still go off the rails but it's still a big step that has just been taken!
 

randomradio

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It is quite common in large and complex deals to sign a " preliminary sales agreement " which sets out the main terms of the transaction and lists all the work that remains to be done, followed a few months later by the formal closing (with payment of the deposit and start of production) when all the pre-conditions are met.

In the business world, the preliminary sales agreement is a very detailed contract during which the lawyers of each party sign tons of documents (to justify that such and such a thing has been done, to prove the good reception of certain documents etc...).

Here, they had to define at least the price, the quantities, the delivery deadlines, the amount of the offsets to be contracted, the conditions of technology transfer, the terms of maintenance, the penalties in case of breach of the agreement and the "secret" clauses of military collaboration with France (e.g.: sharing or not of the data bank for Spectra) On the buyer's side, they probably still have to finalize their financing (signing of loan contracts) and negotiate certain other parts of the deal. On the seller's side, they probably have to finalize their agreements with local manufacturers, create local companies if necessary, do the paperwork...

As long as the money hasn't changed hands yet, it can still go off the rails but it's still a big step that has just been taken!

Okay, so the Indonesian deal is a lot more ahead then.
 
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randomradio

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It is not known which contract of the Swiss or the Indonesian will be signed first, because when Switzerland will have made its choice (on June 23) there will be more or less the same work to do as for Indonesia to arrive at a signature.

I'm betting on the Swiss signing the contract first.
 

kor4116

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Yli 40 000 taistelulentotunnin Rafale - Siivet
I have a question. This Finnish 2017 article is about the improvement of Rafale. It's mostly useful, but there are some things I don't understand. Is the explanation for this part accurate? If true, is there room for improvement in the future?

Even after F4, Rafale lags behind its European competitors in a couple of respects. First, the data link for the Meteor missile only works one-way in Rafale, leaving the missile untapped to its full potential. Second, Rafale’s helmet display is unable to take advantage of the full view of the MICA missile wide-angle beamers.
 

A Person

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The one-way link is because the French air force thinks a two-way link is a useless gadget. From the aircraft to the missile? Yes, that's useful, and the interface exists. From the missile to the aircraft? A missile's battery has a lifetime of just a few seconds when the seeker radar gets started.

A two-way link is obviously possible (there's no technical obstacle to that), but apparently none of the export customers have disagreed with the French that it's just not really worth it.
As for the second point, I don't understand what they mean.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Yli 40 000 taistelulentotunnin Rafale - Siivet
I have a question. This Finnish 2017 article is about the improvement of Rafale. It's mostly useful, but there are some things I don't understand. Is the explanation for this part accurate? If true, is there room for improvement in the future?

Even after F4, Rafale lags behind its European competitors in a couple of respects. First, the data link for the Meteor missile only works one-way in Rafale, leaving the missile untapped to its full potential. Second, Rafale’s helmet display is unable to take advantage of the full view of the MICA missile wide-angle beamers.
France did not consider it useful to make the data link for the Meteor missile two-way. But the two-way option is offered to all Rafale customers because it is easy to implement. But none of our customers asked for this option after listening to the French arguments.

Several helmets are adapted to the Rafale (France Qatar India) and it is very easy to adapt the one you want.
 
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kor4116

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France did not consider it useful to make the data link for the Meteor missile two-way. But the two-way option is offered to all Rafale customers because it is easy to implement. But none of our customers asked for this option after listening to the French arguments.

Several helmets are adapted to the Rafale (France Qatar India) and it is very easy to adapt the one you want.
Thanks everyone for the replies. If there are no technical problems with the improvement, there seems to be no major problem.
I know that HMD uses Scorpion in F4 version in France, and TARGO2 in Qatar and India. Which of the two do you think performs better?
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Thanks everyone for the replies. If there are no technical problems with the improvement, there seems to be no major problem.
I know that HMD uses Scorpion in F4 version in France, and TARGO2 in Qatar and India. Which of the two do you think performs better?
The problem is not in the helmet, it is only that the MICA wide-angle of view is very huge which is a quality not a default! The pilot just needs to turn his head to take advantage of the panoramic vision of the MICA, which is the very principle of operation of this type of helmet.
 

kor4116

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The problem is not in the helmet, it is only that the MICA wide-angle of view is very huge which is a quality not a default! The pilot just needs to turn his head to take advantage of the panoramic vision of the MICA, which is the very principle of operation of this type of helmet.
Yes. HMD will be essential to operate MICA NG with improved performance than MICA in the future.
 

Bon Plan

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It's gonna be an American teen, the F-16V in particular. There have been a lot of military to military contacts between the two over the last few years. After buying Chinese J-7s, purchasing American jets would be a good way to balance out their relations.

Myanmar has been buying new Su-30SMs and JF-17s, so the BAF is willing to match their buildup. There's a pretty expensive modernisation plan going on in BD right now and quite a bit of American hardware is planned, like the Apaches and perhaps even the NASAMS.

And I actually prefer they don't get the Rafale. Any country that is supplied by China should never become a Rafale customer. It's gonna be too enticing for debt-ridden countries to give up western secrets in exchange for debt-forgiveness. So let the Americans deal with that.
It seems that Bengladesh want a twin engine fighter. So bye bye F16...
Yes. HMD will be essential to operate MICA NG with improved performance than MICA in the future.
Helmet is mainly usefull in within visual range fight. The range of legacy MICA is already more than OK.
 

Aditya b7777

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BD will be our future lieutenant, like the UK is to the US. :p


👆👆👆If you are old enough you must be remembering this incident. I am having clear cut memory of this particular incident where we lost 10+ jawans to BD in an armed clash. I even remembering a picture printed on front pages of many news paper too, in which BD uniformed guys carrying a dead Indian BSF jawan by tying his wrist and ankles to a pole & hanging him down, just like how some farmers carrying dead animals.

And, there was a talk surfaces long back on Pakistan gifting its old sub to Bangladesh Navy, when our navy chief asked about this his reaction was "IN need to patrol bay of Bengal too". Dont ask me to provide link for IN admirals's reaction, i cannot. But i can provid this.👇👇👇

So dont expect BD to be our side kick, any thing can happen. No serious power will be happy to have a strong military in neighborhood, & china too doesnt want this scenario and they will do nasty things to sabotage their only military powerhouse in its neighborhood, India. They can do to BD what they have done with Srilanka by giving development aid.

After all we all know forefathers of present day BD population choose not stick with indian federal republic in 1947. I want BD to choose any fighter other than Rafale any day, anything can happen between us in future after they improved their economy & is growing with tremendous speed, may be we will continue existing friendship or it may turn upside down.

This happened too.

And this.
Do check this video out.
 
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randomradio

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But can BD afford F-15 EX?

Long time no see.

The Bengali article posted above says they are willing to spend 25000Cr takas, that comes up to $3B. For 16 jets, that's nearly $190M per jet. That's a lot of money considering the Rafales cost $152M per jet, perhaps about $180M with infrastructure.

And the main cost for the F-15 is not the unit cost but the long term sustainment costs. The F-15's cost was said to be $131M per jet, unit cost, weapons and limited spares. It doesn't help that the euro is too strong. And the F-15 requires less advanced and less expensive infrastructure. So the procurement cost should be very competitive with the Rafale or SH.

Furthermore, Boeing's promising a 20,000 hour service life without any life extension. So the BAF can save a lot of money by not having to bother replacing it for the next 60+ years. That's a really good selling point for small air forces, especially those not aiming to engage great or superpowers, or even fight wars.

The only question is whether they plan to pay the incredibly high $27,000 CPFH cost. But for 16 jets at 250 hours a year, it only comes up to $108M, which is actually not very expensive in terms of budgeting. And it could reduce further by the time they receive the jets. They can even compensate by flying less.

I won't be surprised if the BAF finds the F-15EX's APG-82 + EPAWSS + range/payload/altitude/speed combo as a much better option compared to the SH's superior RCS, but slightly older avionics and lower range/payload/altitude/speed combo. The performance advantage will be needed to counter Myanmar's new Su-30SMEs and for anti-shipping and recce missions over the Bay of Bengal.
 

jk007

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Apr 9, 2020
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👆👆👆If you are old enough you must be remembering this incident. I am having clear cut memory of this particular incident where we lost 10+ jawans to BD in an armed clash. I even remembering a picture printed on front pages of many news paper too, in which BD uniformed guys carrying a dead Indian BSF jawan by tying his wrist and ankles to a pole & hanging him down, just like how some farmers carrying dead animals.

And, there was a talk surfaces long back on Pakistan gifting its old sub to Bangladesh Navy, when our navy chief asked about this his reaction was "IN need to patrol bay of Bengal too". Dont ask me to provide link for IN admirals's reaction, i cannot. But i can provid this.👇👇👇

So dont expect BD to be our side kick, any thing can happen. No serious power will be happy to have a strong military in neighborhood, & china too doesnt want this scenario and they will do nasty things to sabotage their only military powerhouse in its neighborhood, India. They can do to BD what they have done with Srilanka by giving development aid.

After all we all know forefathers of present day BD population choose not stick with indian federal republic in 1947. I want BD to choose any fighter other than Rafale any day, anything can happen between us in future after they improved their economy & is growing with tremendous speed, may be we will continue existing friendship or it may turn upside down.
Let's see if BD takes back even a fraction of illegal Bangladeshis who crossed over to India.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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I'm betting on the Swiss signing the contract first.

Signature of the Indonesian contract


Last week, all the industrialists in the "Rafale Team" were still holding their breath. Indeed, while the technical and financial offer had been submitted to the Indonesian government, the U.S. embassy had just launched an unprecedented lobbying offensive to block Jakarta's decision. And this with the aim of allowing Lockheed to make a more economically attractive offer in favor of its F-16 Block 72.
 
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randomradio

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Signature of the Indonesian contract


Last week, all the industrialists in the "Rafale Team" were still holding their breath. Indeed, while the technical and financial offer had been submitted to the Indonesian government, the U.S. embassy had just launched an unprecedented lobbying offensive to block Jakarta's decision. And this with the aim of allowing Lockheed to make a more economically attractive offer in favor of its F-16 Block 72.

I'm naturally talking about the main contract. Indonesia is expected to sign it at the end of the year.