Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Ashwin]

They were not allowed to fund more than 50% of the offsets programs, meaning the Indian partner has to match the funding. DRDO didn't want to pay.
The babus at the ministry also shot down 52% of offsets program offers, so that slows down things considerably as replacement programs have to be devised and sent for evaluation.

Offset partners and DRDO cases are different. Offset partner JV company is producing things under license. They do not need to put up heavy investment in R&D and all. Its just to generate jobs and value in the country.

Its normal for defence contracts. For a small order of 36 Saab is asembling Gripen in brazil with Embraer as partner.

DRDO don't pay to vendor, it's their obligation to fullfill the offset by any means. Transfering technology is an easier way. They will agree upon a certain value for the said tech and offset obligation get reduced when transfered.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Offset partners and DRDO cases are different. Offset partner JV company is producing things under license. They do not need to put up heavy investment in R&D and all. Its just to generate jobs and value in the country.

Yes, that's why Dassault is developing DRAL's capabilities so that it can produce Falcon initially and later Rafale when the IAF orders a second batch from us. I have no worries about the fact that this will be sufficient in 2022 to meet the offset requirements.

 

[Ashwin]

Yes, that's why Dassault is developing DRAL's capabilities so that it can produce Falcon initially and later Rafale when the IAF orders a second batch from us. I have no worries about the fact that this will be sufficient in 2022 to meet the offset requirements.

We will have to wait and see. So far not looking good. Safran definitely will not be fulfilling the offsets in these timelines.

Auditing the offset policy in defence deals, the CAG said that from 2005 till March 2018, 46 offset contracts were signed with foreign vendors, valued at ₹66,427 crore, of which, by December 2018, ₹19,223 crore worth of offsets should have been discharged by the vendors. “However, the offsets claimed to have been discharged by them was only ₹11,396 crore, which was only 59% of the commitment,” the report said.

Further, only 48%, or ₹5,457 crore, of these offset claims submitted by the vendors were accepted by the Ministry. “The rest were largely rejected as they were not compliant to the contractual conditions and the Defence Procurement Procedure,” the CAG said.

The remaining offset commitments of about ₹55,000 crore would be due to be completed by 2024 but the rate at which the foreign vendors have been fulfilling their offset commitments was about ₹1,300 crore per year. “Given this situation, fulfilling the commitment of ₹55,000 crore by the vendors in the next six years remains a major challenge,” the federal auditor stated.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

We will have to wait and see. So far not looking good. Safran definitely will not be fulfilling the offsets in these timelines.

The offsets must be completed globally by Dassault. The distribution between Dassault, Thales, Safran and MBDA is an internal matter for the group, set up to distribute the efforts according to the turnover of each. If SAFRAN is in difficulty, Dassault will compensate and SAFRAN will be able to compensate later in a country that is a little less crazy than India.

 

[vstol Jockey]

= French bashing.
Strange from your hands....

You suddenly become mad my dear friend...

You don't realise the kind of problem this can create for DA and for Rafale program. Modi is under lots of pressure on this deal and by not meeting the offsets criteria, DA/Safran are only creating more trouble for him.

The offsets must be completed globally by Dassault. The distribution between Dassault, Thales, Safran and MBDA is an internal matter for the group, set up to distribute the efforts according to the turnover of each. If SAFRAN is in difficulty, Dassault will compensate and SAFRAN will be able to compensate later in a country that is a little less crazy than India.

The engine deal is very crucial for more Rafale orders. One of the reasons why Parrikar went ahead with the deal was the engine tech. By not sharing it, Safran is breaking its promise to a man who is now dead. Its unethical and we Indians don't do it. We honour our committments especially the ones made to a person who is dead. Whole of India will rise against Safran if this happens. Parrikar was a very respected leader in India.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

You don't realise the kind of problem this can create for DA and for Rafale program. Modi is under lots of pressure on this deal and by not meeting the offsets criteria, DA/Safran are only creating more trouble for him.

The engine deal is very crucial for more Rafale orders. One of the reasons why Parrikar went ahead with the deal was the engine tech. By not sharing it, Safran is breaking its promise to a man who is now dead. Its unethical and we Indians don't do it. We honour our committments especially the ones made to a person who is dead. Whole of India will rise against Safran if this happens. Parrikar was a very respected leader in India.

Sir even if get engine technology
Where will we use it

The AMCA design is not complete

And IAF wants Supercruise for AMCA

Tejas MK 2 is already taken care of by GE 414

Will the Government fund an engine program to see all funds being wasted.

Any New Engine that DRDO makes for
AMCA should be at least as good as
Izdeliye 30 , the new engine of Su 57

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

You don't realise the kind of problem this can create for DA and for Rafale program. Modi is under lots of pressure on this deal and by not meeting the offsets criteria, DA/Safran are only creating more trouble for him.

The engine deal is very crucial for more Rafale orders. One of the reasons why Parrikar went ahead with the deal was the engine tech. By not sharing it, Safran is breaking its promise to a man who is now dead. Its unethical and we Indians don't do it. We honour our committments especially the ones made to a person who is dead. Whole of India will rise against Safran if this happens. Parrikar was a very respected leader in India.

We have tried to do this and it is your laws that make it impossible, unless DRDO is willing to pay its share according to your laws.
Normally something that is strategic and very crucial, we don't hesitate to put 500 million to obtain it, especially since Safran was ready to put in as much. You've been trying to get this technology for decades and when it's possible you can't decide. France, to get to the level it has reached, has had to do research for 30 years and spend several billions on this subject. You have no notion of the cost of the technologies you want to buy, which is why you never manage to come to a conclusion.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

We have tried to do this and it is your laws that make it impossible, unless DRDO is willing to pay its share according to your laws.
Normally something that is strategic and very crucial, we don't hesitate to put 500 million to obtain it, especially since Safran was ready to put in as much. You've been trying to get this technology for decades and when it's possible you can't decide. France, to get to the level it has reached, has had to do research for 30 years and spend several billions on this subject. You have no notion of the cost of the technologies you want to buy, which is why you never manage to come to a conclusion.

Actually we wanted a 110KN engine

But Safran can only offer M.88 technology which is their best engine

So now we are.talking to.Rolls Royce

https://twitter.com/x/status/1281556859598417922

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Actually we wanted a 110KN engine

But Safran can only offer M.88 technology which is their best engine

So now we are.talking to.Rolls Royce

• When you have the technology you can make the engine the power you want.
• In fact, the M88 is not an engine but a family of engines designed for a thrust that can vary from 75 to 115 KN. The Rafale uses a 75KN variant and a 90 KN prototype has been produced as part of a proposal for the UAE. So for 110 KN there was no problem.
• But the cooperation with Rolls Royce will fail like all the others when it comes to the question of costs.

 

[Hydra]

Is should be a win win situation for both.,DA knows 36 numbers aren't sufficient for a country like India we need 72-90 in total minimum ( bare minimum) of these jets,and they are taking us for arise now. I fear we endup in a big trouble , we may have pay exorbitant price for the already pricey french weapons.

 

[rockstarIN]

If the vendors not fulfiling their commitments, we should reverse engineer their stuff wherever possible, even with Russian help.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

If the vendors not fulfiling their commitments, we should reverse engineer their stuff wherever possible, even with Russian help.

So you will Take out a M 88 and Reverse
Engineer it

And then Loose all future help and Cooperation

Today even Russia does Not Trust China
Though they are good friends

We can get engine technology from elsewhere , no need for such crazy ideas

 

[rockstarIN]

So you will Take out a M 88 and Reverse
Engineer it

And then Loose all future help and Cooperation

Today even Russia does Not Trust China
Though they are good friends

We can get engine technology from elsewhere , no need for such crazy ideas

Not engine in particular.

What do you think this news of CAG is out without Centre's approval or even they asked to publish this at this point in time. Those who don't listen may already got the message.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Not engine in particular.

What do you think this news of CAG is out without Centre's approval or even they asked to publish this at this point in time. Those who don't listen may already got the message.

CAG is an independent constitutional body.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Not engine in particular.

What do you think this news of CAG is out without Centre's approval or even they asked to publish this at this point in time. Those who don't listen may already got the message.

If you read this CAG report , you will realise that they have raised questions on the Entire Off set policy from the
Very Beginning

It is not just about Rafale

We want Technology , and we hope that people will give it at a LOW cost

It does NOT happen that way

Our Security Scenario will deteriorate even further

So.we will have to compromise with our demands from Suppliers
or this Chinese Bullying will never end

 

[randomradio]

If you go through @vstol Jockey posts,you will find out that french guys has played something nasty, really nasty things during this LAC drama to make more money. I dont think the modi government will go easy with someone who back stab us. Its quite unfortunate if we are not getting another 36-44 Rafale, but again it's better not to with Rafale further if it became a white elephant .

Generally @Picdelamirand-oil used to rush this thread & mmrca thread whenever Rafale faces criticism or whenever someone else put more weightage on another platform. But now he became completely mute . I fear something irreversible has happened with further Rafale orders.

The offsets are not going to be a problem. DRDO's decision is still pending.

 

[randomradio]

They were not allowed to fund more than 50% of the offsets programs, meaning the Indian partner has to match the funding. DRDO didn't want to pay.
The babus at the ministry also shot down 52% of offsets program offers, so that slows down things considerably as replacement programs have to be devised and sent for evaluation.

Actually it's the opposite to that. IIRC, the funding planned was €250M each. But prices have gone up instead, possibly to 750M in total. To make matters worse, it appears the French are willing to pay only 250M while asking DRDO to cough up 500M in total. And then, even if DRDO is willing to pay that, I don't think the process allows for it. So the engine deal may not go through at this rate. But this will definitely be seen as some sort of betrayal.

But yeah, alternatives are needed if a solution to the above is not found.

I am definitely interested in knowing what are the 6 tech DRDO has specifically asked for. It appears it's outside the ambit of Dassault and co to deliver. Perhaps they have asked for DCNS tech from Dassault and co.

 

[randomradio]

Sir even if get engine technology
Where will we use it

The AMCA design is not complete

And IAF wants Supercruise for AMCA

Tejas MK 2 is already taken care of by GE 414

Will the Government fund an engine program to see all funds being wasted.

Any New Engine that DRDO makes for
AMCA should be at least as good as
Izdeliye 30 , the new engine of Su 57

AMCA Mk1 or AMCA Mk1A, UAVs and UCAVs.

Future MLU programs. Perhaps even on the Rafale UPG.

Actually we wanted a 110KN engine

But Safran can only offer M.88 technology which is their best engine

So now we are.talking to.Rolls Royce

https://twitter.com/x/status/1281556859598417922

No, the request from France was for a 90-100KN engine. AMCA's 110+KN engine is coming in through a parallel process. There are three main engine programs now, with Kaveri branching off into K9+ and K10.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

AMCA Mk1 or AMCA Mk1A, UAVs and UCAVs.

Future MLU programs. Perhaps even on the Rafale UPG.



No, the request from France was for a 90-100KN engine. AMCA's 110+KN engine is coming in through a parallel process. There are three main engine programs now, with Kaveri branching off into K9+ and K10.

Indian MOD is like a KID IN A CANDY STORE ,who wants everything but whose Father (ie Finance Ministry ) has limited Money

 

[randomradio]

Indian MOD is like a KID IN A CANDY STORE ,who wants everything but whose Father (ie Finance Ministry ) has limited Money

Really? I'd rather think their expectations are below par.

Limited money is simply based on priorities, not because we do not have the money. It's 'cause defence spending in India is based on long term growth and not based on our present situation. Once private investment picks up, the govt will have more money to play around with.