Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Milspec

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Google past news from 2015 onwards.

They also claimed the Derby ER provides 80% of the Meteor's range.

Would recommend reading the article.
Now featuring long range performance, I-DERBY ER will allow Rafael to compete with MBDA's METEOR BVR missile at more favourable terms. Rotem claims that Rafael, "can deliver 80% of the range at 50 percent of the price. On top of that I-Derby ER has LOBL capability and it maintains short range performance."

Look at the names on the left.
View attachment 17756

With the Meteor's range being 200-250, then 80% of that is 160-200Km.

Case closed.



IAF never ordered Derbys for fighter jets. You are confused with the IN's Sea Harrier. What the IAF did order were the SAMs.

India did not have either the ToT or the permission to integrate non-Russian weapons on the MKI for many years.
Wow,
Israeli's claim Aim120D is only 50% capable as the Derby ER
You claimed Rafael claims Aim 120D (160km range) only 50% effective as Derby ER;


When asked for a reference , you provide a reference of Derby 80% range of Meteor. 160-200 which is not in any aspect twice of Aim120D. right?
 

randomradio

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Wow,
Israeli's claim Aim120D is only 50% capable as the Derby ER
You claimed Rafael claims Aim 120D (160km range) only 50% effective as Derby ER;


When asked for a reference , you provide a reference of Derby 80% range of Meteor. 160-200 which is not in any aspect twice of Aim120D. right?
Stop tripping up on yourself. "Capable" and "range" are two different words.

There are more than 2 pages of discussion where I've repeatedly said the Derby ER has a range of 150-200Km, and the Aim-120D's range is 160-180Km. Even pointed out the thing about capability in one post. The 2x capability of the Derby ER comes from the quality of the seeker, navigation and propulsion. GaN seeker, combined seeker and fuse, modern INS and dual thrust motors provide that leap in capability.

Now you've just been making one disingenous post after another.

I think I've made my point that the Derby ER has about 2x more "range" than the RVV-SD. Now you are free to live in your la la land while the IAF does their own thing.
 
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A Person

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Are the AESA Rafales distributed among all squadrons or have they simply raised new squadrons with only AESA Rafales? If it's the latter, then I suppose the Meteors have been distributed only to the AESA squadrons, hence the small numbers.
The entire fleet is managed at the top level. Squadrons are provided with equipment, but they don't "own" it. The same aircraft can be in a squadron one week and another the next. And this is true also for the equipment. Obviously there are some technical constraints (e.g. some squadrons only use two-seaters since they fly in pilot + WSO crews) and of course they also do with what they locally and stuff isn't shuffled from an air base to another without a good reason for the transport, but that's how it works in France. This even applies between the air force and the navy aviation.
 
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Milspec

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Stop tripping up on yourself. "Capable" and "range" are two different words.

There are more than 2 pages of discussion where I've repeatedly said the Derby ER has a range of 150-200Km, and the Aim-120D's range is 160-180Km. Even pointed out the thing about capability in one post. The 2x capability of the Derby ER comes from the quality of the seeker, navigation and propulsion. GaN seeker, combined seeker and fuse, modern INS and dual thrust motors provide that leap in capability.


Now you've just been making one disingenous post after another.

I think I've made my point that the Derby ER has about 2x more "range" than the RVV-SD. Now you are free to live in your la la land while the IAF does their own thing.
nope,
And Rafael claims that ? Aim120D is only 50% capable as the Derby ER ; ?

Given you keep wanting to compare identical tech base when convenient to you; comparing derby with Aim120c5 and rvv ae makes sense, all SFRM missiles;
but then you compare DPRM missile Derby ER with SFRM missiles like Aim120D and Rvv SD. but not a K77M DPRM or a RVV-PD Ramjet is odd.

You still failed to explain why would IAF buy RVV AE over the last decade all the while having availability of superior Derby all along.
As far who lives in lala land, the reality of the fact remains, while you dream of xxxx number of derby's and mica ng's, there are confirmed orders for both r27e-r-1 's and R77's that vympel is delivering right now. So what IAF is doing is quite clear. Don't be surprised when you see orders for K77M and rVV-PD ...
 

randomradio

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nope,
And Rafael claims that ? Aim120D is only 50% capable as the Derby ER ; ?

Given you keep wanting to compare identical tech base when convenient to you; comparing derby with Aim120c5 and rvv ae makes sense, all SFRM missiles;
but then you compare DPRM missile Derby ER with SFRM missiles like Aim120D and Rvv SD. but not a K77M DPRM or a RVV-PD Ramjet is odd.

You still failed to explain why would IAF buy RVV AE over the last decade all the while having availability of superior Derby all along.
As far who lives in lala land, the reality of the fact remains, while you dream of xxxx number of derby's and mica ng's, there are confirmed orders for both r27e-r-1 's and R77's that vympel is delivering right now.
Lost case.

So what IAF is doing is quite clear. Don't be surprised when you see orders for K77M and rVV-PD ...
Lol. Why would I be surprised by that? We have so many Russian jets that we will most definitely buy Russian weapons. But it won't be in the numbers that will make them the primary.

We're definitely getting some export grade Russian weapons with the MKI MLU. But, at this particular time, the Russians have nothing that's better than the Meteor or Derby ER, hence these will be our primaries for now. Without large orders of fighter jets from Russia, any missile orders will only be in piecemeal numbers.

If the last vestiges of your argument rests on the IAF buying some Russian argument in order to somehow prove the Derby ER sucks, then I'd recommend giving up. So don't be disappointed by the numbers we actually order.
 

randomradio

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The entire fleet is managed at the top level. Squadrons are provided with equipment, but they don't "own" it. The same aircraft can be in a squadron one week and another the next. And this is true also for the equipment. Obviously there are some technical constraints (e.g. some squadrons only use two-seaters since they fly in pilot + WSO crews) and of course they also do with what they locally and stuff isn't shuffled from an air base to another without a good reason for the transport, but that's how it works in France. This even applies between the air force and the navy aviation.
I did not know that. Definitely quite flexible.

Rotating personnel is one thing, but it's quite another thing to rotate inventory.
 

Milspec

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Lost case.



Lol. Why would I be surprised by that? We have so many Russian jets that we will most definitely buy Russian weapons. But it won't be in the numbers that will make them the primary.

We're definitely getting some export grade Russian weapons with the MKI MLU. But, at this particular time, the Russians have nothing that's better than the Meteor or Derby ER, hence these will be our primaries for now. Without large orders of fighter jets from Russia, any missile orders will only be in piecemeal numbers.

If the last vestiges of your argument rests on the IAF buying some Russian argument in order to somehow prove the Derby ER sucks, then I'd recommend giving up. So don't be disappointed by the numbers we actually order.
I never said Derby ER sucks, my commentary has only been on methodologies you employ to claim ranges, which are categorically incorrect, and incoherent and at times self -contradictory.
 

Bon Plan

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Are the AESA Rafales distributed among all squadrons or have they simply raised new squadrons with only AESA Rafales? If it's the latter, then I suppose the Meteors have been distributed only to the AESA squadrons, hence the small numbers.
I think the AESA radar are spread in the differents squad.
 

A Person

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I think it's generally important to remember that the max range of a missile is often not a meaningful measure of its combat capability, nor is it, by the way, a measure of the distance it will travel.

Take two aircraft flying towards each other. When they are 110 km away, aircraft A fires a missile at aircraft B. Aircraft B doesn't evade the missile, and is shot down. Did the missile fly 110 km? No, because aircraft B kept flying toward the missile, too. But it was still used to shoot down a target that was 110 km away at the moment of firing, so let's give it 110 km range.

This is why NEZ is much more meaningful than range -- and also why NEZ are kept a lot more ambiguous and vague than range measures.
 

Ashwin

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I think it's generally important to remember that the max range of a missile is often not a meaningful measure of its combat capability, nor is it, by the way, a measure of the distance it will travel.

Take two aircraft flying towards each other. When they are 110 km away, aircraft A fires a missile at aircraft B. Aircraft B doesn't evade the missile, and is shot down. Did the missile fly 110 km? No, because aircraft B kept flying toward the missile, too. But it was still used to shoot down a target that was 110 km away at the moment of firing, so let's give it 110 km range.

This is why NEZ is much more meaningful than range -- and also why NEZ are kept a lot more ambiguous and vague than range measures.
Max ranges are almost always useless. All the energy would have exhausted when it reaches closer to the target of 50+% range. This is the problem dual pulse or ramjet propulsion trying to solve. Advertised max range numbers are from an optimal altitude (for Astra its like 15km+). Air density/resistance would be less and it assumes the target is in a lower altitude thus using gravity to assist.
 

randomradio

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I never said Derby ER sucks, my commentary has only been on methodologies you employ to claim ranges, which are categorically incorrect, and incoherent and at times self -contradictory.
Open source information perfectly supports my theory.

"Categorically incorrect", "incoherent" and "self-contradictory" are merely your opinions.

Fact: The "100Km" advertised Derby ER doubles the RVV-SD's range. Hence the "50Km" Derby matches the RVV-SD.
 

randomradio

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I think it's generally important to remember that the max range of a missile is often not a meaningful measure of its combat capability, nor is it, by the way, a measure of the distance it will travel.

Take two aircraft flying towards each other. When they are 110 km away, aircraft A fires a missile at aircraft B. Aircraft B doesn't evade the missile, and is shot down. Did the missile fly 110 km? No, because aircraft B kept flying toward the missile, too. But it was still used to shoot down a target that was 110 km away at the moment of firing, so let's give it 110 km range.

This is why NEZ is much more meaningful than range -- and also why NEZ are kept a lot more ambiguous and vague than range measures.
Yep. But we are not talking about the combat efficienty and Pk of the missile at such ranges, just that the missiles have such "head-on" ranges. It's a given that the effective Pk of missiles are at much, much shorter ranges than the max range. We were merely talking about the advertisement of the missile ranges. The idea is to press home the fact that the head-on range of the Derby ER is twice that of the RVV-SD. So all subsequent "real world" ranges are also much, much greater than the RVV-SD.
 

A Person

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So all subsequent "real world" ranges are also much, much greater than the RVV-SD.
Maybe, maybe not.

A missile that follows a ballistic trajectory can travel much farther than one that follows a pursuit curve. But if the target starts evasive maneuver, the ballistic missile's range will be dramatically shortened, while the pursuit curve missile's range will be much less so.
 

randomradio

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Maybe, maybe not.

A missile that follows a ballistic trajectory can travel much farther than one that follows a pursuit curve. But if the target starts evasive maneuver, the ballistic missile's range will be dramatically shortened, while the pursuit curve missile's range will be much less so.
Whether both are lobbed or not, the range of the Derby ER is going to be much, much greater than the RVV-SD when using the same trajectory. It's simply in a new class. The new K-77M is in the same class as the Derby ER.
 
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It's all beyind a paywall. Any hints that the VL-MICA NG has twice the range of the VL-MICA in it, if one of you has a subscription?
Egyptian "MEKO-A200" frigates will receive a new generation of French VL-Mica NG air defense missiles
_______________________________________________________________________________________

The French newspaper "La Tribune" announced, this morning, Wednesday, that the French-European company for missile industries, MBDA, has succeeded in winning a contract to supply the "MEKO-A200" frigates that the Egyptian Navy contracted with the German company "ThyssenKrupp TKMS" ( The construction of the first frigate is nearing completion (with short-medium-range air defense missiles of the latest generation, at the expense of the South African "Denel" company, which failed to obtain bank guarantees necessary to complete the contract with the Egyptian side, whose value is estimated at more than 300 million euros. . (There are other reasons, including corruption, the lack of government support for the company, and the migration of many innovative minds and engineers working for it abroad. Brazil also canceled the A-Darter air-to-air missile contract with the company at the same time that the Egyptian contract was canceled at the end of last year 2019).

As a result of canceling the contract with Denel, MBDA seized the opportunity with an exemplary offer represented in its latest generation of MICA air-to-air / surface-to-air missiles, known as "MICA NG" or "MICA Next Generation". The company received The first payment from the Egyptian side for the installation of equipment and launch equipment for missiles on board the Egyptian Meko frigates at the end of last July, and the second cash payment for the missiles themselves is still awaiting.

The new generation of MICA NG and VL-MICA NG surface-to-air missiles feature the new Dual-Pulse Rocket Motor that enables flying speeds of up to Mach 4 (4,880 km / h) and increases the range that can reach 40 km instead of 20 km for the air defense version - which the Egyptian Meko frigates will get - while the air combat version to be incorporated on the Rafale in the coming years is expected to have a range of 100 km or more instead of 80 km for the MICA-EM radar version and 80 Km or more instead of 60 km for the MICA-IR thermal release.

This generation also features advanced thermal and radar detectors, as the MICA-IR thermal release will have a Matrix Array sensor (an array of sensors instead of a single sensor as is the case in the current generation) to increase the accuracy and sensitivity to heat, while the MICA-EM radar version It will receive an Active Electronically Scanned Array radar sensor to maximize the ability to grasp targets and resist obstruction and electronic noise.

This, and the new generation of MICA missiles in the air combat version enhances the chances of Egypt contracting an additional batch of Rafale fighters and opening new horizons for them with the Egyptian Air Force, as it was distinguished by being purely French production that does not contain any American components as is the case with the current models. This cuts off the American side from using the ITAR law or the "International Traffic in Arms Regulations" that controls the export of American military technology abroad in line with the interests of the United States, and which Washington has already used in obstructing the supply of Egypt with "SCALP" missiles. EG "mobile (France worked to solve the situation by manufacturing an alternative domestic component to its American counterpart), and possibly Meteor air-to-air missiles with a range of 100+ km.

* Egypt will be the first foreign customer to acquire the latest generation of MICA air defense missiles or VL-MICA NG on board the MEKO-A200 frigates. (Egyptian Gowind-2500 carriers possess the current generation VL-MICA with a range of 20 km with its thermal IR and radar EM issuers)

* The air-to-air version of the latest generation of the MICA missiles, named MICA NG, will enter service in France on board the Rafale fighters starting from 2026, and from Of course, it is expected that the Egyptian Rafale will obtain it, on which the current generation of these missiles is working, as is the case with its French counterpart.

* The surface-to-air version of the latest generation of ship-launched Mecha rockets is called VL-MICA NG, where VL stands for Vertical Launch, where the missiles are launched from Vertical Launch System VLS cells.

MICA NG will be available in 2024 with F4.2 instead of 2026.
 

randomradio

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It's unclear if the doubling of the range is a true upgrade or simply due to higher speed or with modifications to the booster.

But it appears the AAM version will definitely see a massive boost in range, even if it's not double.

But there is also a good chance the AAM version's range has been doubled.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Rafale can be deployed at short notice, says defence minister Rajnath Singh

Amidst fears of rising tensions between India and China, the Indian Air Force (IAF) formally inducted five French fighter jets into the No. 17 Golden Arrows squadron under Commanding Officer Group Captain Harkirat Singh.

After a long time, the IAF welcomed a foreign fighter jet on Thursday, when at an impressive ceremony and after a traditional ‘Sarva Dharma Puja’, the ‘Rafale’ fighters from France were unveiled. The Omni-role aircraft which means it can carry out at least four missions in one sortie, was also given a traditional water cannon salute which is usually given to the fighters before they are formally inducted in the IAF.


During the induction ceremony at the Air Force Base, Ambala, defence minister Rajnath Singh said, “The five Rafale from the French Company Dassault Aviation can be deployed at a short notice at the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Eastern Ladakh.”