Rafale RB of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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F16 don't allow them to have better weapon than Aim 120 C.. meanwhile Chinese can offer Pl15.. recant predict effectiveness of the weapons package.. but it's still a threat if It Is real..
Range is important but not the only thing which matters.

A Su30MKI with a maws (we miss that one thing) , carrying a 8222 spj , 2 R73 and 2 R77/ 2 Astra , even with its present radar while taking on a J20 with 4 PL15 , be the first to acquire the target and fire first. A F16 Block 70 with a AAMs will actually be a difficult target.

Range in numbers and big terms do matter , but only when you have things that actually work.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
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Here’s Why The IAF Has Chosen The Hammer For Its Rafale

HAMMER-RAFALE.jpg


With just days to go before India’s first Rafale jets arrive in country, the Indian Air Force has exercised emergency procurement powers to contract the French Hammer AASM precision strike weapon system for the aircraft. In a decision fully in keeping with an emerging conflict scenario with China in eastern Ladakh — and with disengagement efforts hitting multiple roadblocks — choosing the Hammer isn’t surprising. But you’re a Livefist reader, and obviously you expect context. So let’s begin.


To begin with, the Hammer, developed by French conglomerate Safran (which also builds the Rafale’s M88 turbofan engines) has always officially been an option to the IAF in the Rafale package. In 2017, months after India had contracted 36 Rafale jets, Livefist reported details of what India had chosen, noting that the IAF had optioned the Hammer system for a possible decision once Rafale deliveries begin, but that it would hit the ground running with Israeli Spice guidance kits to begin with. Read that full report here.


In October last year, on the day the first Rafales were handed over to the Indian Air Force, Livefist reported the list of add-on weapons and systems that the IAF could opt for now that the jets were flying in Indian colours.


The IAF’s 2016 decision to choose the Israeli Spice precision bomb kits over the Hammer was based on cost — the French system is significantly more costly, but brings to bear additional capabilities, including effective deployability in low-level flight. It wasn’t the first time the Hammer had lost out to the Israeli Spice weapons family.

In 2012, the Hammer and Spice went head to head in an Indian Air Force quest for new 1,000 kg precision strike weaponry for its Mirage 2000 jets that were being separately upgraded. There too, the Israeli won out on cost (the Hammer didn’t have a 1,000 kg version for test, and therefore had to be tested on a 250 kg unit). Spice 2000 bombs would go on to see action in India’s air strikes on a Pakistani terror camp in Balakot in February 2019. The Indian Air Force, incidentally, has also used Ladakh-triggered emergency procurement powers to order more Spice 2000 weapons for its Mirage 2000s.

But if the IAF had chosen the Spice on its Rafales in 2016, why the need to order the Hammer system now? To understand the decision, it must be known that acquiring weapons have three broad cost components — the cost of the weapon itself, the cost of integration (software and hardware), and finally the cost of testing & certifying the system. A senior IAF officer tells Livefist that while work on integrating Spice weapons on the IAF Rafales has been underway in France in terms of software code, the bulk of the integration and crucial testing will necessarily take place in India. But how long would that take from the time the aircraft arrive? To provide perspective, it took 18 months to fully integrate, test and clear the Spice on IAF Mirages. The IAF’s rationale, therefore, in acquiring the Hammer system now, is that savings made on integration and testing the weapon — the Hammer is already fully certified on the Rafale — will justify the higher cost of the system itself. Once contracted, Hammer systems will likely begin deliveries quickly, possibly from production inventory intended for the French forces.


In France, Indian Air Force pilots have had extensive exposure to the the Hammer system already. In 2017, Livefist conducted a series of interviews with French Navy Rafale pilots who had deployed Hammer bombs on targets in Iraq. Read that full story here.

While the Hammer procurement has clearly been green-lit keeping in view the current India-China tensions in Ladakh, and the fact that inbound Rafales would be bereft of a tactical stand-off strike weapon for some time, there are likely to be more weapons contracts for the Rafale fleet going forward. The IAF Rafale’s more capable weapons — the Meteor BVRAAM and SCALP cruise missile — have been contracted in fairly modest numbers, part of an effort to keep overall costs down. It is expected, therefore, that the IAF will look to add numbers of both these systems in the near term as Rafale deliveries add up.


The IAF’s decision to push through an emergency purchase of the Hammer was scooped by India Today executive editor Sandeep Unnithan,who made a mention of it on Livefist Editor Shiv Aroor’s news show 5ive Live on Wednesday, a day before the story was reported on other media. Watch that full broadcast here

Here’s Why The IAF Has Chosen The Hammer For Its Rafale
With just days to go before India’s first Rafale jets arrive in country, the Indian Air Force has exercised emergency […]
www.livefistdefence.com
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
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French newspaper La Tribune reported in 2017 that Safran intended to reduce the cost of a single AAASM from 120,000 Euros to around 80,000 Euros a piece. In comparison, the US-built GBU-12 230kg bomb costs around 50,000 Euros a piece.

80k€ for a missile against 50k€ for a LGB. Not so bad.

I'm not really bothered about the Paveway II. We have our own stuff now, and they are very cheap. The stuff we are missing currently are the SDB II/SPICE and HAMMER/SPEAR 3 equivalents. We only have SDB I equivalents in all weight classes.

But if the HAMMER is just 80k euros, then it's definitely cheap. SPICE is around $150K, SDB II is expected to be $120K and neither come with motors.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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Nov 30, 2017
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Here’s Why The IAF Has Chosen The Hammer For Its Rafale

HAMMER-RAFALE.jpg


With just days to go before India’s first Rafale jets arrive in country, the Indian Air Force has exercised emergency procurement powers to contract the French Hammer AASM precision strike weapon system for the aircraft. In a decision fully in keeping with an emerging conflict scenario with China in eastern Ladakh — and with disengagement efforts hitting multiple roadblocks — choosing the Hammer isn’t surprising. But you’re a Livefist reader, and obviously you expect context. So let’s begin.


To begin with, the Hammer, developed by French conglomerate Safran (which also builds the Rafale’s M88 turbofan engines) has always officially been an option to the IAF in the Rafale package. In 2017, months after India had contracted 36 Rafale jets, Livefist reported details of what India had chosen, noting that the IAF had optioned the Hammer system for a possible decision once Rafale deliveries begin, but that it would hit the ground running with Israeli Spice guidance kits to begin with. Read that full report here.


In October last year, on the day the first Rafales were handed over to the Indian Air Force, Livefist reported the list of add-on weapons and systems that the IAF could opt for now that the jets were flying in Indian colours.


The IAF’s 2016 decision to choose the Israeli Spice precision bomb kits over the Hammer was based on cost — the French system is significantly more costly, but brings to bear additional capabilities, including effective deployability in low-level flight. It wasn’t the first time the Hammer had lost out to the Israeli Spice weapons family.

In 2012, the Hammer and Spice went head to head in an Indian Air Force quest for new 1,000 kg precision strike weaponry for its Mirage 2000 jets that were being separately upgraded. There too, the Israeli won out on cost (the Hammer didn’t have a 1,000 kg version for test, and therefore had to be tested on a 250 kg unit). Spice 2000 bombs would go on to see action in India’s air strikes on a Pakistani terror camp in Balakot in February 2019. The Indian Air Force, incidentally, has also used Ladakh-triggered emergency procurement powers to order more Spice 2000 weapons for its Mirage 2000s.

But if the IAF had chosen the Spice on its Rafales in 2016, why the need to order the Hammer system now? To understand the decision, it must be known that acquiring weapons have three broad cost components — the cost of the weapon itself, the cost of integration (software and hardware), and finally the cost of testing & certifying the system. A senior IAF officer tells Livefist that while work on integrating Spice weapons on the IAF Rafales has been underway in France in terms of software code, the bulk of the integration and crucial testing will necessarily take place in India. But how long would that take from the time the aircraft arrive? To provide perspective, it took 18 months to fully integrate, test and clear the Spice on IAF Mirages. The IAF’s rationale, therefore, in acquiring the Hammer system now, is that savings made on integration and testing the weapon — the Hammer is already fully certified on the Rafale — will justify the higher cost of the system itself. Once contracted, Hammer systems will likely begin deliveries quickly, possibly from production inventory intended for the French forces.


In France, Indian Air Force pilots have had extensive exposure to the the Hammer system already. In 2017, Livefist conducted a series of interviews with French Navy Rafale pilots who had deployed Hammer bombs on targets in Iraq. Read that full story here.

While the Hammer procurement has clearly been green-lit keeping in view the current India-China tensions in Ladakh, and the fact that inbound Rafales would be bereft of a tactical stand-off strike weapon for some time, there are likely to be more weapons contracts for the Rafale fleet going forward. The IAF Rafale’s more capable weapons — the Meteor BVRAAM and SCALP cruise missile — have been contracted in fairly modest numbers, part of an effort to keep overall costs down. It is expected, therefore, that the IAF will look to add numbers of both these systems in the near term as Rafale deliveries add up.


The IAF’s decision to push through an emergency purchase of the Hammer was scooped by India Today executive editor Sandeep Unnithan,who made a mention of it on Livefist Editor Shiv Aroor’s news show 5ive Live on Wednesday, a day before the story was reported on other media. Watch that full broadcast here

Here’s Why The IAF Has Chosen The Hammer For Its Rafale
With just days to go before India’s first Rafale jets arrive in country, the Indian Air Force has exercised emergency […]
www.livefistdefence.com
Didn't explain why 🤷‍♂️

It's because Dassault couldn't integrate Spice kit fast enough. !

And its in very small number. You can guess how many one can get for <$50 million.

However, sources in the defence and security establishment told ThePrint that the main reason for the choice of the HAMMER, which costs about Rs 70 lakh each, is the ongoing crisis with China. The system is being procured under the new powers extended to the IAF for emergency procurement up to Rs 300 crore under capital budget.


“The IAF wants to operationalise the Rafale fighters faster due to the crisis with China. The Rafale lacks a proper air-to-surface precision missile for a shorter range of about 70 km to take out hardened surfaces, bunkers. And hence, the HAMMER is being bought,” a source said.

It is not immediately known how many systems are being bought.

 
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Bon Plan

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Didn't explain why 🤷‍♂️

It's because Dassault couldn't integrate Spice kit fast enough. !
The full indian spec are targeted from the beginning for 2022, with the last delivery... And Spice integration seems to be done in India. So not possible before first dlivery.
This is why ;)
 

Ashwin

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The full indian spec are targeted from the beginning for 2022, with the last delivery... And Spice integration seems to be done in India. So not possible before first dlivery.
This is why ;)
Yes, Six year after order Dassault will delivers modified version.
 

STEPHEN COHEN

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Dec 4, 2017
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Rafale equipped with HAMMER will give sleepless nights to Pakistani Army installations and Brigade Headquarters in POK

We might be buying them Now in this stand off against China but its First Use
Will be AGAINST Pakistan

A Two Front War is an inevitable and inescapable reality

Atleast 500 HAMMERS must be procured
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Yes, Six year after order Dassault will delivers modified version.
Yes 3 years for the standard product and 6 years for the modified one, it's better than 30 years for the standard LCA isn't it? And above all, it's in accordance with what Dassault had promised and what the Indians had asked for.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Didn't explain why 🤷‍♂️

It's because Dassault couldn't integrate Spice kit fast enough. !

Yes, Six year after order Dassault will delivers modified version.

I don't think that's the correct way to look at it. There will be negotiations and also they will need to wait for Rafales to begin delivery. So the time period is just 3 years from the time delivery starts. Software will have to be rewritten for IAF specific Rafales pre-delivery since we are opting to introduce foreign subsystems and then flight tested. After which weapons integration will have to start on the flying version and then flight tested before final delivery. The weapons integration and flight testing alone should take 1.5-2 years, peacetime timeframe, following which extensive RCS testing has to be carried out for SPECTRA's signature management. So 6 years from the time of contract is actually pretty impressive for a completely foreign system.

Otoh, Raytheon took 10 years to integrate the MCU onto the Jaguar for the CBU-105.

Rafale equipped with HAMMER will give sleepless nights to Pakistani Army installations and Brigade Headquarters in POK

We might be buying them Now in this stand off against China but its First Use
Will be AGAINST Pakistan

A Two Front War is an inevitable and inescapable reality

Atleast 500 HAMMERS must be procured

With the 300Cr limit, there's room for only about 100-200 Hammers. But that's plenty for any limited war against either side.
 
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Ashwin

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Yes 3 years for the standard product and 6 years for the modified one, it's better than 30 years for the standard LCA isn't it?
Good logic.

IAF and Israeli engineers modified the Mirage with LGB in a few weeks maybe next time they can teach Dassault how to do it too.
 

Lolwa

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Feb 6, 2020
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F16 don't allow them to have better weapon than Aim 120 C.. meanwhile Chinese can offer Pl15.. recant predict effectiveness of the weapons package.. but it's still a threat if It Is real..
Aim 120c5 is the best weapon in Pakistani inventory. The Pakistanis do not trust Chinese tech. So the pl15 will be as bad as any other chini missile. The jarnails of Pak would prefer second hand f16's anyday over j16,j31 or j10. As much as they love jerking off for the Chinese the Pakistani mil establishment knows that only western maal is the most reliable stuff.
 

vstol Jockey

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Dec 1, 2017
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IAF will induct Rafale on 29th but the number of Rafale flying in India might be over three times of the number. Some will fly within Indian Airspace and defend India while the ones going into offensive will be flown by Indian Pilots. Hope you get the game. The extremely friendly country is game for it and wants to be part of the game.
 
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Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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IAF will induct Rafale on 29th but the number of Rafale flying in India might be over three times of the number. Some will fly within Indian Airspace and defend India while the ones going into offensive will be flown by Indian Pilots. Hope you get the game. The extremely friendly country is game for it and wants to be part of the game.
Are you sure about it? Or just a wild guess?
 

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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Rafale equipped with HAMMER will give sleepless nights to Pakistani Army installations and Brigade Headquarters in POK

We might be buying them Now in this stand off against China but its First Use
Will be AGAINST Pakistan

A Two Front War is an inevitable and inescapable reality

Atleast 500 HAMMERS must be procured
Just for information, Egypt ordered 240 units for 24 birds.
The 300 crore limit has been raised to 500 crore

That is why I said , 500 HAMMERS
even if it is 1 crore a piece

By the way can France supply so many so soon
500? probably not. If I remember well, we ordered 2500 more or less, and some wer used in Lybia and Syria.
50 or 100 for a beginning ?
 
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randomradio

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The 300 crore limit has been raised to 500 crore

That is why I said , 500 HAMMERS
even if it is 1 crore a piece

By the way can France supply so many so soon

No clue. It may take 6 months or even a year. But some supplies can come in from French stocks within a month, perhaps all that we ordered will come from French stocks. Perhaps even a week from now.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Good logic.

IAF and Israeli engineers modified the Mirage with LGB in a few weeks maybe next time they can teach Dassault how to do it too.
You forget Dassault, because integration with Mirage 2000 weapon system was made by Dassault in particular the interface for target designations on the screens and HUD. 😛
A do-it-yourself like the Israelis did Dassault is able to do it in a few weeks too but SPECTRA will not work anymore for the great joy of the Chinese.
An Indian who gives Dassault speed lessons, I have never laughed so heartily.
 
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