Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

randomradio

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Instead of asking for retired Kilos, if a mechanism is worked out for newer Kilos meant for Pacific Fleet to be transferred on a 10 year lease to India. That solution is actually good.

Might be a bit more costly, but will be quicker and safer.

New subs can't enter service in 3-4 years. It's the same story. All we can do today is stopgaps, either second-hand Kilos or upgrade and lease some old Jap or Korean subs. Soryu is an option, and ToT is not expected.

Our induction program has been scheduled in such a way that we will get 18 new subs between 2030 and 2040. So, today it's about buying time while waiting for those 18 subs. And buying time would mean inductions within 3-4 years of contract signature for active duty until the replacement period between 2035-40. We basically need 6 old subs to survive between 2035 and 2040, to promptly be replaced by the P-76, which is where the 3+3 Kilos fit in.

Alternatively, forget the stopgap, we can just upgrade the 3 Kilos we have. It will mean a shortage of 3 subs after 2035, but 21 is still a good number. It can be made up with an additional SSN lease.
 

Lolwa

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But once the Scorpene was fully launched, you could have launched the P75 I programme so that it would take over from the Scorpene. My question is why does it keep going wrong? There must be a basic reason, even if the administrative procedures are complicated, with 1.3 billion inhabitants you must have enough manpower to do the work.
The problem is we don't take advantage of our full workforce because corruption masked as incompetence. We should be atleast producing upgrade type 209's since the 90's. But No. We should have order another batch of scorpenes. But No. We should take the Korean deal. But No. We will have a single vendor situation and again we end up re-issuing the RFP.
The funny part is we are wasting money on aircraft carriers when submarines are cheaper to procure, faster to produce and have far more survivability than ships.
 
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Bon Plan

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The problem is we don't take advantage of our full workforce because corruption masked as incompetence. We should be atleast producing upgrade type 209's since the 90's. But No. We should have order another batch of scorpenes. But No. We should take the Korean deal. But No. We will have a single vendor situation and again we end up re-issuing the RFP.
The funny part is we are wasting money on aircraft carriers when submarines are cheaper to procure, faster to produce and have far more survivability than ships.
Add the loss of the skill of the Mazagon Dock work force. And it's not the first time.
A follow on order of at least 3 Scorpene is a miss opportunity. Sad for Indian.
 
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randomradio

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Add the loss of the skill of the Mazagon Dock work force. And it's not the first time.
A follow on order of at least 3 Scorpene is a miss opportunity. Sad for Indian.

MDL will transition to P-75I and then P-76. In the meantime, Scorpene will enter refits. There will be work for the labour.
 
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suryakiran

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MDL will transition to P-75I and then P-76. In the meantime, Scorpene will enter refits. There will be work for the labour.

Actually, we will lose skills and it will involve retraining. 5 years is a long time. And honestly, P75I according to me is dead. Forget it. It is going to be a GTG.

There is a big difference between making a sub from scratch and doing refits. Its like saying a Honda service centre is the same as a Honda factory.
 

suryakiran

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If we really want to improve our sub building capabilities. Get MDL to make more Scorpenes. Kick DRDO to get their act together in the AIP space. Let the new subs roll out with Indian AIP. Meanwhile, lease Kilos from the Russians.

This nonsense of P75I was rubbish right from the start.
Our induction program has been scheduled in such a way that we will get 18 new subs between 2030 and 2040.
Indian Stretchable Time says we will have a discussion on how between 2050 and 2060 we will be adding 10 P100s with advanced submarine which is like an underwater aircraft carrier.
 
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randomradio

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Actually, we will lose skills and it will involve retraining. 5 years is a long time. And honestly, P75I according to me is dead. Forget it. It is going to be a GTG.

There is a big difference between making a sub from scratch and doing refits. Its like saying a Honda service centre is the same as a Honda factory.

The workforce won't change. They will just move to building ships and refitting ships and subs, and when the next sub contract comes in, they will transition.

If we really want to improve our sub building capabilities. Get MDL to make more Scorpenes. Kick DRDO to get their act together in the AIP space. Let the new subs roll out with Indian AIP. Meanwhile, lease Kilos from the Russians.

If we want to improve, we need our own design, so we can make changes as we need and bring in new production processes. With imports, it's just more screwdrivergiri.

This nonsense of P75I was rubbish right from the start.

The AIP field testing requirement was overboard, for both domestic and foreign. Luckily we still have 2 competitors left.

Indian Stretchable Time says we will have a discussion on how between 2050 and 2060 we will be adding 10 P100s with advanced submarine which is like an underwater aircraft carrier.

The 12 subs from indigenous programs will go ahead though. And if P-75I is reduced to just GTG, then even those 6 will happen.

Rather I'd like to see a GTG for 3 subs handed over to L&T, and MDL moves straight into P-76. Then L&T can tag along after the first 3 are done.
 

Lolwa

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Cost is 3 times Arjun Mk1A.

Plus it doesn't serve any purpose. Same for AAM.
Type 10 will be a great replacement for our t-72's it will be an amazing fit in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.
Although the k2 is also designed for the same job and has better armour. I hope we buy the k2 Black panthers from Korea
 

Ankit Kumar

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Type 10 will be a great replacement for our t-72's it will be an amazing fit in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.
Although the k2 is also designed for the same job and has better armour. I hope we buy the k2 Black panthers from Korea
Any foreign buy will not help us with localisation of any relevant technology that we want, will be excessively costly and integration of Indian Subsystems a problem.

We are closing in on the era of "we should buy this , and that" and stepping into "we are working on this and should also develop that".
 
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Lolwa

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Any foreign buy will not help us with localisation of any relevant technology that we want, will be excessively costly and integration of Indian Subsystems a problem.

We are closing in on the era of "we should buy this , and that" and stepping into "we are working on this and should also develop that".
Yeah japanese can't really offer any new tech. The meteor basically uses the Japanese seekers so it'd no point.
 

randomradio

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Cost is 3 times Arjun Mk1A.

Plus it doesn't serve any purpose. Same for AAM.

I had argued for the Type 10 two years ago.

It's been made for mountains, and it can come in via a generous credit with a 0.1% interest. We can buy about 360 tanks for the NE, which requires 3 armoured brigades. A 20-year loan at 0.1% will pay for itself due to local inflation and we will be able to plug a crucial hole in just a few years without spending much of our own money. And I'm sure it can follow in the footsteps of the K9 for local production.

An Indian equivalent will take far too long. And the T-90 and Arjun won't be as suitable.
Although the k2 is also designed for the same job and has better armour. I hope we buy the k2 Black panthers from Korea

The K2 is a much bigger and heavier tank, it's not in the same class as the Type 10.
 

Hydra

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Type 10 will be a great replacement for our t-72's it will be an amazing fit in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh.
Although the k2 is also designed for the same job and has better armour. I hope we buy the k2 Black panthers from Korea
 

Hydra

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This was the same guy who was saying that the t-90M was impenetrable. He's a Russian shill please ignore this idiot.
More balanced view

I seriously beleive that there is no room for Type 10 in IA as on today. Scenario could have been different if Japanese made the policy shift in 2019 or so, we moved to indigenous solution already.

What we should do is ,we should pursue for a g2g deal with Japanese to manufacture Soryu class sub in india,I want Japanese to sell Taigei class,but I am pretty sure that they will not made the offer.
 

Lolwa

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I seriously beleive that there is no room for Type 10 in IA as on today. Scenario could have been different if Japanese made the policy shift in 2019 or so, we moved to indigenous solution already.

What we should do is ,we should pursue for a g2g deal with Japanese to manufacture Soryu class sub in india,I want Japanese to sell Taigei class,but I am pretty sure that they will not made the offer.
No japanese hardware fits our requirement. We either have equivalent systems and superior systems or we are working on them. The Japanese aren't going to export us anything worthwhile though. Maybe they will participate in future navy procurements.