Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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I know korean is basically an upgraded type 209. But it's pretty advanced and has some similarity with the soryu class. I don't know the Koreans export their cruise missiles. But they have two submarine launched missiles.
The new class will have a submarine version of the Korean Vertical Launching System which will be able to carry up to ten indigenous "Chonryong" land-attack cruise missiles and "Hyunmoo" submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM)
Hyunmoo-3 - Wikipedia
So we can most probably add these along with the nirbhay and Brahmos.
Will make a variety of tactical standoff weapons. The only other close submarines in our service are scorpene but they don't have ballistic missiles. And the arihant doesn't have a cruise missile capability. Also the Koreans have one of the most potent 533mm torpedoes so honestly would be great if we buy these..
Also the Koreans have one of the most heavily armed navies. The KSS 3 was the most heavily armed subs in the tender. I really hope the Koreans aren't
blue balled here because it's a good sub which is going to be screwed due to our procurement policies again..
Arihant can fire cruise missiles from its torpedo tubes, no issues. However it's yet to be equipped wih VLS capable of launching cruise missiles.
 

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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Sometimes I think we should scrap the P-75I & just go for more SSNs. Upgrade the Scorpenes with DRDO's AIP during their MLU.
We need SSNs and SSKs both at least 10-12 boats each as our western seaboard is very shallow and AOR presents limitations to a extent due to depth issues and so is the SCS (with the help of AIP obviously for a SSK).
 

Gautam

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Feb 16, 2019
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We need SSNs and SSKs both at least 10-12 boats each as our western seaboard is very shallow and AOR presents limitations to a extent due to depth issues and so is the SCS (with the help of AIP obviously for a SSK).
I know. Everybody was ranting about SSNs. So I did a little ranting of my own. Besides its not like we have the money needed anyway.
There is no evidence except theories that S5 and SSN design phase js completed, and that too totally inhouse without external assistance. Mind you, French are involved in assistance since at least an year with us. Nobody will tell why and to what extent.
I remember the IN chief getting a VR tour of a French SSN sometime back.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Is AUKUS pact a signal to India to go for nuclear attack submarines?


With a new aircraft carrier, six new Kalvari class diesel attack submarines and Vishakhapatnam class of destroyers, the Indian Navy is going to be very potent force in the Indo-Pacific by 2025.

With Australia signing a pact with US and UK to go in for eight nuclear powered conventional attack submarines or SSNs to deter China in Indo-Pacific, India also needs to have a relook at its 1999 conventional submarine plan and move swiftly towards nuclear powered sub-surface vessels.

While India has floated a Request for Information (RFI) for six new diesel attack submarines with air independent propulsion for longer duration under water under Project 75I, the rapidly changing security scenario in the Indo-Pacific calls for Modi government to put the plan of three SSNs on the front-burner. India as of now has one ballistic missile firing nuclear submarine or SSBN, INS Arihant, with another one, INS Arighat, ready for commissioning next year. It does not have a nuclear-powered conventional attack submarine, but the situation will change in 2025.

Although the French are understandably unhappy at Australia for unilaterally scuttling the USD 50 billion deal with Naval Group to build 12 AIP equipped diesel submarines in favour of SSNs under the newly unveiled AUKUS Anglo-Saxon pact, fact is that the rapidly building Chinese Navy needed a stronger response. The SSNs are only limited by food supplies and the mental framework of their crew and can-do sea access-sea denial patrols for more than 45 days. In short, Australia, which is at the receiving end of the belligerent Chinese like India and Japan, can deter the powerful PLA Navy, which has a series of SSNs and SSBNs and is acquiring longer sea legs by the day.

In this context, Indian national security planners also need to reconsider Project 75 I and Project 76, a follow-up of the previous one, and jump to Project 77 or the SSN project. Since submarine building takes at least a decade from the drawing board, India needs to prepare for a time when Chinese aircraft carriers and SSNs will be patrolling the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) apart from other global players.

It is not that the Modi government is sitting tight and watching the unfolding security situation in maritime dimension. With new aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, INS Arighat SSBN, six new Kalvari class diesel attack submarines and Vishakhapatnam class of destroyers, the Indian Navy is going to be very potent force in the Indo-Pacific by 2025.

With US willing to sell armed Predator drones, Aegis integrated combat system and Tomahawk cruise missile to India, Modi government has enough options to project power in Indo-Pacific. India’s key ally France is also willing to help in design and construction of SSNs as well as improve Indian military’s over the horizon capabilities.

Just as US, India and Australia are focused on the Indo-Pacific, the new Japanese leadership is also shedding its pacifist approach faced with wolf-warriors of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). The emerging leaders of the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) after Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga are conservative and nationalist in approach. Rather than be pushed around by Beijing, Japan is all ready to join hands with Quad partners in securing Indo-Pacific.

The AUKUS pact will not be without security ramifications for the Quad partners as there is a distinct possibility that China may build an SSN for its client Pakistan citing the transfer of nuclear reactor under AUKUS to Australia. This will create a bigger security headache for India and for other countries in the IOR. Time has come for India to revisit its deterrent capabilities and for Indian Navy to think beyond Karachi.
 

Ashwin

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Is AUKUS pact a signal to India to go for nuclear attack submarines?


With a new aircraft carrier, six new Kalvari class diesel attack submarines and Vishakhapatnam class of destroyers, the Indian Navy is going to be very potent force in the Indo-Pacific by 2025.

With Australia signing a pact with US and UK to go in for eight nuclear powered conventional attack submarines or SSNs to deter China in Indo-Pacific, India also needs to have a relook at its 1999 conventional submarine plan and move swiftly towards nuclear powered sub-surface vessels.

While India has floated a Request for Information (RFI) for six new diesel attack submarines with air independent propulsion for longer duration under water under Project 75I, the rapidly changing security scenario in the Indo-Pacific calls for Modi government to put the plan of three SSNs on the front-burner. India as of now has one ballistic missile firing nuclear submarine or SSBN, INS Arihant, with another one, INS Arighat, ready for commissioning next year. It does not have a nuclear-powered conventional attack submarine, but the situation will change in 2025.

Although the French are understandably unhappy at Australia for unilaterally scuttling the USD 50 billion deal with Naval Group to build 12 AIP equipped diesel submarines in favour of SSNs under the newly unveiled AUKUS Anglo-Saxon pact, fact is that the rapidly building Chinese Navy needed a stronger response. The SSNs are only limited by food supplies and the mental framework of their crew and can-do sea access-sea denial patrols for more than 45 days. In short, Australia, which is at the receiving end of the belligerent Chinese like India and Japan, can deter the powerful PLA Navy, which has a series of SSNs and SSBNs and is acquiring longer sea legs by the day.

In this context, Indian national security planners also need to reconsider Project 75 I and Project 76, a follow-up of the previous one, and jump to Project 77 or the SSN project. Since submarine building takes at least a decade from the drawing board, India needs to prepare for a time when Chinese aircraft carriers and SSNs will be patrolling the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) apart from other global players.

It is not that the Modi government is sitting tight and watching the unfolding security situation in maritime dimension. With new aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, INS Arighat SSBN, six new Kalvari class diesel attack submarines and Vishakhapatnam class of destroyers, the Indian Navy is going to be very potent force in the Indo-Pacific by 2025.

With US willing to sell armed Predator drones, Aegis integrated combat system and Tomahawk cruise missile to India, Modi government has enough options to project power in Indo-Pacific. India’s key ally France is also willing to help in design and construction of SSNs as well as improve Indian military’s over the horizon capabilities.

Just as US, India and Australia are focused on the Indo-Pacific, the new Japanese leadership is also shedding its pacifist approach faced with wolf-warriors of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). The emerging leaders of the Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) after Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga are conservative and nationalist in approach. Rather than be pushed around by Beijing, Japan is all ready to join hands with Quad partners in securing Indo-Pacific.

The AUKUS pact will not be without security ramifications for the Quad partners as there is a distinct possibility that China may build an SSN for its client Pakistan citing the transfer of nuclear reactor under AUKUS to Australia. This will create a bigger security headache for India and for other countries in the IOR. Time has come for India to revisit its deterrent capabilities and for Indian Navy to think beyond Karachi.
French can offer things like pumpjet, anechonic tiles, optronic mast, sonar etc.

Nuclear subs are designed around reactors and we have already choosen our path. Breaking away will be disastrously expensive for us. And the French are not stupid to give away core tech without a substantial price so that they can just rub it on to US/UK
 

RISING SUN

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French can offer things like pumpjet, anechonic tiles, optronic mast, sonar etc.

Nuclear subs are designed around reactors and we have already choosen our path. Breaking away will be disastrously expensive for us. And the French are not stupid to give away core tech without a substantial price so that they can just rub it on to US/UK
Instead it would be far better if best of the both countries (French and US tech) are offered jointly as they don't have compatibility issues. Obviously cost is the major factor buy when it comes to strategic investment, India has never shown reluctance to invest.
 

Arctic Wolf

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Instead it would be far better if best of the both countries (French and US tech) are offered jointly as they don't have compatibility issues.
French submarines run on (7% enriched U-235) LEU reactors, while American submarines run on (90-95% enriched U-235) HEU reactors. Not to mention, the US will not share its technology with India.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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French can offer things like pumpjet, anechonic tiles, optronic mast, sonar etc.

Nuclear subs are designed around reactors and we have already choosen our path. Breaking away will be disastrously expensive for us. And the French are not stupid to give away core tech without a substantial price so that they can just rub it on to US/UK
The article does not say that Indian submarines should have French components, it just says that they should be nuclear rather than conventional.
 
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Ashwin

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The article does not say that Indian submarines should have French components, it just says that they should be nuclear rather than conventional.
I quoted wrong post.

This
Instead it would be far better if best of the both countries (French and US tech) are offered jointly as they don't have compatibility issues. Obviously cost is the major factor buy when it comes to strategic investment, India has never shown reluctance to invest.
They have huge compatibility issues!.

LEU vs HEU reactors
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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French can offer things like pumpjet, anechonic tiles, optronic mast, sonar etc.

Nuclear subs are designed around reactors and we have already choosen our path. Breaking away will be disastrously expensive for us. And the French are not stupid to give away core tech without a substantial price so that they can just rub it on to US/UK
But having to open a submarine every 6 or 7 years to replace the core and its fuel load is also disastrously expensive.
 
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RISING SUN

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I quoted wrong post.

This


They have huge compatibility issues!.

LEU vs HEU reactors
I wasn't limiting tech cooperation to submarine arena only, was talking about wider area of cooperation. And in that regard US and French tech are compatible, at least from NATO Stanag standards.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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But having to open a submarine every 6 or 7 years to replace the core and its fuel load is also disastrously expensive.

The short lifespan of Indian reactors is only for the Arihant class, or perhaps only the Arihant itself. There was a pretty healthy 8-year gap between the launch of the first two subs after all.

Anyway the Arihant's reactor went critical in 2013. So it's already been 8 years since it's been functioning and there's no news about any new major refit yet. Maybe we will know soon enough. So I suppose the goal will be to improve the reactor life to manage just one refuelling before decommission for future subs, including the SSN and S5 class, before going for life-of-the-ship reactor designs.
 

Ashwin

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But having to open a submarine every 6 or 7 years to replace the core and its fuel load is also disastrously expensive.
Not really, clearly going back on a plan would be way more expensive.

We do not know about new SSN reactors. Maybe it may never need a refueling. Fourth generation reactor would be the end goal. Something which French can never offer.
 
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