Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

A Person

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We know there was a requirement for the ability to launch cruise missiles:

As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM).

Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea.

However, we know some cruise missiles (such as the Tomahawk) can be lauched from a torpedo tube, so VLS is not an absolute necessity.
 
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Ashwin

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We know there was a requirement for the ability to launch cruise missiles:
As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM).​
Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea.​

However, we know some cruise missiles (such as the Tomahawk) can be lauched from a torpedo tube, so VLS is not an absolute necessity.
Even the french SSN Barracuda-class uses MdCN Missile from the 533mm torpedo tube. Which will be offered.
 

randomradio

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if VLS is a make or break requirement then this is really just a contest between Amur and SMX 3.0? In that case wouldn't the French just have it? Their tech (especially AIP) should be leagues ahead of the Russian offering.

I'm assuming the French sub is more expensive than the Russian sub. Any sub that makes it to the final shortlist only has to be the cheapest to win, at the very least by more than 10%.

Also the fact that the Russian parent version called Lada class is already under construction in Russia. 2 subs are expected to become available in 2022. A total of 5 redesigned subs have been ordered, could climb up to 11. So it's gonna get cheaper by the time India starts producing the subs sometime in 2024, they will have at least 3 or 4 in the water by then. As for the French sub, we will be making the first of the class. So there's going to be a longer development cycle, which will add to the overall cost.

As for AIP, both are WIP. Only the Germans and Koreans have fully operational designs amongst the participants. With the French and the Russian designs, it will be us who will have to make it work as intended. The Spanish design is also WIP, but at least its sitting inside a submarine right now.

A more speculative theory is Li-ion batteries can remove the need for AIP on the P-75I. The IN plans to equip the P-75I with Indian designed Li-ion batteries, 5MW. And an Indian designed 5MW electric motor. Both the batteries and motor for the P-75I are going to be Indian.
 

randomradio

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We know there was a requirement for the ability to launch cruise missiles:
As per the requirements stated by the maritime force, it wants the submarines to be equipped with heavy-duty firepower as it wants the boats to have at least 12 Land Attack Cruise Missiles (LACM) along with Anti-Ship cruise missiles (ASCM).​
Sources said that the Navy has also specified that the submarines should also be able to carry and launch 18 heavyweight torpedoes in the sea.​

However, we know some cruise missiles (such as the Tomahawk) can be lauched from a torpedo tube, so VLS is not an absolute necessity.

The main question is whether IN wants to equip the sub with Brahmos-1 or Brahmos-M. The 1 has a diameter of 600m and cannot be fired from 533mm torpedo tubes. The diameter of M is expected to be 500mm, so that's fine. Brahmos-2 is an enigma right now, but if it's anything like the Zircon, then it's going to match the dimensions of Brahmos-1. I doubt the IN will accept Brahmos-M, especially when they want ranges upwards of 1000Km. There's a 1500Km Brahmos in the works, and this is especially useful to the IN.

Even if 650mm torpedo tubes are installed, it won't be able to perform a salvo launch like the VLS can. For long range anti-shipping, we will need the ability to launch up to 8 missiles within 2 minutes.

I don't think the IN will give up on VLS. The salvo launch is needed if we are to fight off the PLAN. 72 VLS with 1000+Km antiship missiles is hard to give up on.

One can imagine the kinda firepower carried by the P-75I with VLS. 12 Brahmos or LRLACM in the VLS, 18 HWTs and 6 additional missiles, like the Brahmos-M. Effectively what the Virginia class I to IV carry.
 
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STEPHEN COHEN

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One can imagine the kinda firepower carried by the P-75I with VLS. 12 Brahmos or LRLACM in the VLS, 18 HWTs and 6 additional missiles, like the Brahmos-M. Effectively what the Virginia class I to IV carry.

Will Any of Existing French , Russian
German or Spanish Submarines
Fullfil our RFP conditions OR do we
Expect these Big Global Shipyards
To Design a New Submarine for Us

Are the demands placed in RFP / RFI
Attainable or Feasible
 

randomradio

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Will Any of Existing French , Russian
German or Spanish Submarines
Fullfil our RFP conditions OR do we
Expect these Big Global Shipyards
To Design a New Submarine for Us

Are the demands placed in RFP / RFI
Attainable or Feasible

We do not know the exact specifications requested, but some of it can be estimated.

The S-80 Plus apparently weighs nearly 3500T at full displacement and is powered by a 3.5MW electric motor. Otoh, the IN wants a 5MW motor. This goes to show the IN is going to make enough room for a much larger sub than 3500T.

An approx 4000T sub with a 5MW motor should give us what we need.
 
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Tatvamasi

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Govt can evaluate splitting P75I submarine contract between two bidders: Mazagon Shipbuilders​

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not like the project to be delayed.


 
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Bon Plan

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The French navy not operating an SSK of their own is a huge problem when it comes to export prospects.
A SSN is a SSK without the nuclear reactor. It's far easier in this sens than in the other one.
And at least the French Navy has a real blue sea experience. Not the german navy.
 
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Bon Plan

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The S-80 Plus apparently weighs nearly 3500T at full displacement and is powered by a 3.5MW electric motor. Otoh, the IN wants a 5MW motor. This goes to show the IN is going to make enough room for a much larger sub than 3500T.
The S80 engine was tailored for a lighter sub. Now it is more a blue whale than an orca.
 

randomradio

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A SSN is a SSK without the nuclear reactor. It's far easier in this sens than in the other one.
And at least the French Navy has a real blue sea experience. Not the german navy.

Depends on what technologies of the SSN have been transferred to the SSK.

But I agree with the experience.
 

Hydra

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The main question is whether IN wants to equip the sub with Brahmos-1 or Brahmos-M. The 1 has a diameter of 600m and cannot be fired from 533mm torpedo tubes. The diameter of M is expected to be 500mm, so that's fine. Brahmos-2 is an enigma right now, but if it's anything like the Zircon, then it's going to match the dimensions of Brahmos-1. I doubt the IN will accept Brahmos-M, especially when they want ranges upwards of 1000Km. There's a 1500Km Brahmos in the works, and this is especially useful to the IN.

Even if 650mm torpedo tubes are installed, it won't be able to perform a salvo launch like the VLS can. For long range anti-shipping, we will need the ability to launch up to 8 missiles within 2 minutes.

I don't think the IN will give up on VLS. The salvo launch is needed if we are to fight off the PLAN. 72 VLS with 1000+Km antiship missiles is hard to give up on.

One can imagine the kinda firepower carried by the P-75I with VLS. 12 Brahmos or LRLACM in the VLS, 18 HWTs and 6 additional missiles, like the Brahmos-M. Effectively what the Virginia class I to IV carry.
Ask IN design its destroyers with sufficient VLS instead of pitching VLS on a small diesel sub. 650 mm torpedo tubes will work fine. If i am not wrong, Israelis & Russians having 650mm torpedoes tube installed in their sub.

Govt can evaluate splitting P75I submarine contract between two bidders: Mazagon Shipbuilders​

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not like the project to be delayed.


Mazagon, hell yeah. Another 20 yrs of secured order.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Govt can evaluate splitting P75I submarine contract between two bidders: Mazagon Shipbuilders​

L&T likely to be the second partner, if the govt decides to share the project. It takes eight years from the awarding of the contract to the handing over of the first submarine. Splitting the project between two firms can cut down delivery time. Given the geopolitical situation, the govt may not like the project to be delayed.


Doesn't make economic sense and is not sustainable and will require big investments again in future. Unlike building 2 frigates here and a 3 there, submarine assembly line is different. A pause of even couple of years will lead to loss of technical expertise, trained man power and toolings too sometimes.

From UK to France, every nation is concerned that the orders for submarine building are as such that the production lines are not idle. But here we are...

Pathetic.
 

randomradio

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Doesn't make economic sense and is not sustainable and will require big investments again in future. Unlike building 2 frigates here and a 3 there, submarine assembly line is different. A pause of even couple of years will lead to loss of technical expertise, trained man power and toolings too sometimes.

From UK to France, every nation is concerned that the orders for submarine building are as such that the production lines are not idle. But here we are...

Pathetic.

For the first time MoD is thinking of putting the service's needs before penny pinching, this is a historic occassion, and here you are criticising it.

The fact is we need 12 new SSKs to bring us to a fleet of 18, so we can see a doubling of the P-75I order with 2 lines. It makes sense to get 12 SSKs before 2035 instead of just 6.
 

Tatvamasi

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Jan 5, 2018
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Doesn't make economic sense and is not sustainable and will require big investments again in future. Unlike building 2 frigates here and a 3 there, submarine assembly line is different. A pause of even couple of years will lead to loss of technical expertise, trained man power and toolings too sometimes.

From UK to France, every nation is concerned that the orders for submarine building are as such that the production lines are not idle. But here we are...

Pathetic.
All of these nations have only one production line. But we need 3!
 

Ankit Kumar

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For the first time MoD is thinking of putting the service's needs before penny pinching, this is a historic occassion, and here you are criticising it.

The fact is we need 12 new SSKs to bring us to a fleet of 18, so we can see a doubling of the P-75I order with 2 lines. It makes sense to get 12 SSKs before 2035 instead of just 6.
Untill and unless we decide for a massive buildup then all will be lost again whatever we do. 6 SSK each by two shipyards will leave most likely both of them out of action for a long time again and the next time we will want new SSKs, we will again have to reinvest everything. And also give up any hopes of having an industry like SK which can export submarines.
 

Ankit Kumar

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All of these nations have only one production line. But we need 3!
Two production lines are more than enough to take care of our needs. Maybe an expansion of facilities at Vizag to start work on SSNs quicker. MDL has capability to work on two submarines at a time.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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MDL has capability to work on two submarines at a time.

2 ? It's more like 3 or 4 if push comes to shove. I wish I had pics to share with you guys . We're unnecessarily building up excessive capacity in SSK construction. We should've focussed on capacity building in the SSN / SSBN sector for apart from the Project 75 ( I) & Project 76 , I don't see much need for SSKs beyond routine overhauling / MLUs & replacements for the aforementioned classes.

OTOH , SSNs / SSGNs / N powered Spy / Sp Ops Subs are the future. In 3 decades we'd require much more than the 6 we're building. Ideally the numbers of the above mentioned categories ought to be between 20-30 not counting the SSBNs of which we'd require anywhere between 6-8 at least .

Do remember the INS Arihant would in all probability end up as a training sub for N crew with the INS Aridhaman being converted to a SSGN .
 

randomradio

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Untill and unless we decide for a massive buildup then all will be lost again whatever we do. 6 SSK each by two shipyards will leave most likely both of them out of action for a long time again and the next time we will want new SSKs, we will again have to reinvest everything. And also give up any hopes of having an industry like SK which can export submarines.

The workforce can be relocated to other projects, so that's not an issue.

Over the long run, we will need 2 SSK lines and 2 SSN lines just to keep up with all the countries that will become rich enough to have large navies of their own, apart from global powers.

As for exports, let's see what the future holds. A lot of countries will want to form strategic partnership with India, so they may look at Indian wares by then. We are talking about a post-2040 world after all, when most countries will no longer be low income countries.
 

Ankit Kumar

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The workforce can be relocated to other projects, so that's not an issue.

Over the long run, we will need 2 SSK lines and 2 SSN lines just to keep up with all the countries that will become rich enough to have large navies of their own, apart from global powers.

As for exports, let's see what the future holds. A lot of countries will want to form strategic partnership with India, so they may look at Indian wares by then. We are talking about a post-2040 world after all, when most countries will no longer be low income countries.
We had trained workforce, toolings and paperwork from Type 209 , Scropenes and Kilo EKMs too. Still we are vying for P75I right ?

Relocation of workforce simply means losing the resources .
 

randomradio

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We had trained workforce, toolings and paperwork from Type 209 , Scropenes and Kilo EKMs too. Still we are vying for P75I right ?

The gap was too much between the older projects. It's unlikely to repeat.

If P-75I is split, then for MDL, the Scorpene will give way to P-75I. And L&T will create a whole new workforce for SSKs, separate from its SSN workforce in its new facility in TN. And, after making a handful of P-75I, both will be in contention for P-76.

Our current 30-year plan calls for 24 subs. So we have 6 Scorpenes and 6 SSNs covering the first 12. Next we will have 6 P-75I+6 P-76 or 12 P-75I alone. So the next 30-year plan going all the way to 2060 should have a much larger P-76 and SSN component, and it's not necessary it will stop only at 24 subs. Post which there is no reason to ever stop constructing both SSKs and SSNs long into the future without even considering exports. It's all a question of the size of our economy after all.

Relocation of workforce simply means losing the resources .

As long as the workforce is working on shipbuilding or submarine construction, the experience will be retained.
 
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