If you publish interviews from Indian media or panels from air shows showing the percentage of Indian manufacturing, I will recognize it, not take it as Indian propaganda. I can take it as official Indian data. But you are different, you take everything from China as propaganda, you don't recognize them, and are only willing to guess PLAF according to your own fantasy.
Damn, look who is asking proof.
We take serial numbers and propaganda as proof but others need to show "official" data.
People's Liberation Army Air Force : News & Discussions
- Thread starter Aashish
- Start date
WS-5, a project that ended in the 1960s, is still remembered by some people. But shouldn’t WS-6 be more memorable? From the WS-6 engine adapted to the J-9 fighter in the 1960s, to the J-13 fighter in the 1980s, to the WS-8 engine developed for the Y-10 passenger aircraft, all of them eventually returned to dust in the late 1980s. The WS-6 series can be said to be the starting point of China’s self-developed engines.
Are you saying that there are similar official numbers from PLAF? I have asked you multiple times about the number of engines. You replied with "trust me bro" gibberish. You expect us to take the serial numbers of some aircraft that appeared on a closed internet site as official. Yet you ask for official data from us.
As a culture, your society has mastered the art of faking. Everything is an unreliable cheap copy. We don't have the same issue with other authoritarian countries.
Stop joking, Buddhism does not have that much influence in East Asia. Besides, no one in East Asia thinks that India is a Buddhist country. As for the rest, I can only say that I admire the confidence of Indians. India's status in Chinese history is almost non-existent. You are not even as good as the Muslim empire in Central Asia. The last time China went to South Asia was 10th century ago. Since then, Buddhism and India have had nothing to do with each other.
One more thing, I actually don’t need a VPN to access this website, and I don’t think I’m seeking approval from Indians.
Then you are wrong. China has actually released a lot of official data, such as the thrust curve of WS-10, which is in an AVIC paper, and the radar photo of J-16, which is hidden in the public brochure of the 606 Radar Research Institute. For example, the range and experimental standards of PL15 are in a public interview with the Luoyang Air-to-Air Missile Research Institute. These are all official data, but you just don't know them.
According to the number of engines, the AL31 and WS-10 have obvious appearance differences, which can be seen by anyone. As for the official Chinese data, you can clearly learn about them from CCTV programs about WS-10 and J-11B.
Since you think that all the important things are fake, then please tell me, do you believe your eyes? Then, please tell me, does this J-11 use AL-31?
Did i ask you about number of T/R module in a radar? I specifically asked about your thousands of engine claim.
It can be seen by anyone meaning can we count how many are in service? No right?. CCTV is literally state media in charge of ccp propaganda. You have distorted view of whats official.
Again, did I say that the J-11 doesn't use the stolen IP engine? Obviously, it does. Clearly you are deflecting.
How come this groundbreaking engine and aircraft are not achieving any significant export successes?. How come other than your client state no one is buying it? Your competition, the Russians, are out of the market, yet you are nowhere to be seen.
I'm aware of the J-11 family. I have a list of all the versions and numbers somewhere. You pointed out that Indians did not know the true strength of the PLAAF 4-4.5th gen fleet, so I put that up; 1500-1600. I wasn't talking about the WS-10.
Anyway, the last I heard, even older jets will get WS-10, except for the ones being phased out.
If we are counting the Flanker fleet, then we are talking about 250+ for J-11B and 350 for 16. That's 1200 engines. And 120 J-10Cs would put that at 1300+. Some 150+ J-20s would be 300 more engines. So 1600+ operational engines. Then come older jets, let's see when that happens.
As per contract, India produces 51% of the MKI by value and over 75% by component. Only the landing gear and some engine parts are imported. The landing gear was originally planned to be indigenized, but was later imported due to its lower cost.
Such data is constantly released during interviews. So India releases information like the Russians do.
This is from 2014.
First Sukhoi-30 overhauled at Nashik, highlights HAL’s growing capability
Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw materials that goes into the Su-30MKI --- including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc --- must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.
HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI’s giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. 53 per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys --- proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine’s components in India.
Also I was wrong about 76%, that's for the airframe. Engine is 87.7%. The remaining 12.3% consists of the most expensive parts. A DRDO official had once pointed out that it was over 85%.
These limits are only for production of the jets, not the spare parts, as per the contract.
In any case, India is pushing for full indigenization of systems like tanks and aircraft, away from Russian influence. For example, the T-90 is getting a new Indian designed engine.
Anyway, if you read that India produced 60% of the MKI, then you just read old data. Indigenization percentage increased in a phased manner.
Neither the engine nor the aircraft exist due to their cancelation. While the WS-6 may have been important for the Chinese industry, only its propaganda value is higher due to its lack of success.
India also has such programs which went nowhere.
HAL HF-73 - Wikipedia
Indian scientists modified and studied British (Orpheus) and French (Adour) engines before starting Kaveri. So we had made better copies of these engines.
We put into service a Gnat modification called HAL Ajeet.
HAL Ajeet - Wikipedia
This used one of those modified engines.
As for Adour, the French were open to give us anything we wanted. But not pursuing it was a bad decision.
So India too had made a lot of progress before starting Kaveri.
Since you don't want to believe it, let me show you the assessment of the Chinese military in the 2024 Japanese Defense White Paper, which contains detailed information on the number of Chinese fighter jets. You can't say that the Japanese Ministry of Defense is a propaganda tool for China, right?
Well, I understand. India's share of AL-31 production is 53% in terms of price and 81% in terms of the number of parts. India needs to purchase all raw materials and a large number of assembly tools from Russia according to the contract, and use these to produce about 51% of the aircraft structure, and gradually increase the proportion.As per contract, India produces 51% of the MKI by value and over 75% by component. Only the landing gear and some engine parts are imported. The landing gear was originally planned to be indigenized, but was later imported due to its lower cost.
Such data is constantly released during interviews. So India releases information like the Russians do.
This is from 2014.
Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components --- or 73 per cent --- are now being built in India.First Sukhoi-30 overhauled at Nashik, highlights HAL’s growing capability
www.ajaishukla.com
Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw materials that goes into the Su-30MKI --- including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc --- must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia.
HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI’s giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. 53 per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys --- proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine’s components in India.
Also I was wrong about 76%, that's for the airframe. Engine is 87.7%. The remaining 12.3% consists of the most expensive parts. A DRDO official had once pointed out that it was over 85%.
These limits are only for production of the jets, not the spare parts, as per the contract.
In any case, India is pushing for full indigenization of systems like tanks and aircraft, away from Russian influence. For example, the T-90 is getting a new Indian designed engine.
Anyway, if you read that India produced 60% of the MKI, then you just read old data. Indigenization percentage increased in a phased manner.
Why should we export engines when China does not even have demand for them? Moreover, China will not export the Flanker series according to its agreement with Russia. The J-10CE fighter jet using the WS-10 was only granted export permission in 2018, after which Pakistan ordered two squadrons. What can be confirmed now is that Egypt's order for 12 aircraft is about to be confirmed (this was reported by the Egyptian media itself).
Are you referring to Japanese estimates of your airforce when someone asks about your official numbers?
Exactly, no one wants that unproven Chinese products. WS-10 still remains an unproven engine, just introduced in a single-engine fighter.
We may copy and steal everything from Russia, but we will respect the Russian wish of not exporting. What a virtuous group of thieves.
racism
Don't you feel shameless? You asked me for official news from China, and I gave you an official report, which mentioned the J-11B series, saying that more than 200 aircraft have been produced and equipped with 10 aviation regiments, but you thought it was Chinese propaganda. Then I gave you the official report from Japan, and you told me you didn't believe it. You wanted the official report from China. Are you a three-year-old child? Do you need me to hold a bottle to coax you to sleep?
You can live in your own fantasy.
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Hi, IAF is probably very happy to hear your words, after all, they will be very proud when they fly MIG-21 to fight J-10C and F-16, and when they are shot down, they will ask where our Tejas are, and you can proudly answer that since we don't have our own engines and F404 is delayed, they are still in HAL, the world's largest aviation museumAre you referring to Japanese estimates of your airforce when someone asks about your official numbers?
Exactly, no one wants that unproven Chinese products. WS-10 still remains an unproven engine, just introduced in a single-engine fighter.
We may copy and steal everything from Russia, but we will respect the Russian wish of not exporting. What a virtuous group of thieves.
You keep resorting to ad hominem and racist remarks. Happens when you dont have answers.
You clearly don't know what "official" means. For example, MoD, IAF, CAG or HAL gives information about various procurement. I can give you exact number of airframes or engines based on those when someone ask me about official source. I cant give estimate by Pakistan as the "official" number of Indian aircraft. Hope the logic is not that complicated for you.
Its also because I do not have to. We live in a democratic and open society. Since you do not have anything similar, you cannot expect us to take random statistics given by you seriously. Your state is incentivised to boost every numbers and there is no accountablity.
Do not evade the question, kid. Explain why no one is purchasing your cheap fighters when your competition (the Russians) is under sanction.
Oh, I understand. You want to hear the spokesperson publicly announce specific matters of the Chinese Air Force at the press conference. Anything else should be regarded as propaganda. Then you should become a reporter and have the opportunity to ask questions publicly at the press conference. You shouldn't tell me.
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However, I don't think Indians will be invited.
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You just asked for "official" source about india content in Su-30.
Imagine us asking the same about Russian and Chinese content in the J-11.
PLAN is so special, please take our word for it.