Pakistan Navy: News & Discussions

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Genuine question. How leasing of ships/subs from other Navies works during war times? During 1971 war, Pakistan lost PNS Ghazi which was leased from USA. Does Pakistan have to pay full cost of the boat during such a scenario? India also leases subs from Russia.

Naval vessels is the last thing which can be procured (purchased or leased) in case of a war actually.

Our Akula deal is upfront only really costly, and has bank guarantees for Russia for any untoward case of incident. The operations are monitored under Russian expertise to ensure safety of crews and vessels.
Looks like P-75i will happen whether we like it or not. I also think the IN is personally vested with the indigenous AIP project. The external solution for the AIP vide project P-75i is some sort of a built in redundancy if the indigenous project fails. Much like MMRCA 2.0 .
Things depends on finances available. Otherwise they want a lot of things.

Otherwise personally I am still optimistic that P75I will go down the drain , additional P75 with F21 and MdCN will be ordered and remaining resources poured in to accelerate SSN program. I can be optimistic, can't I ? 😉
 

RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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Stirling type AIP tech most likely acquired from unlicensed sources will not be as efficient.

Generally the MESMA cycle AIP of France is considered to be the cheapest (at around 70-100 million USD) , but most noisy and least efficient amongst all the AIP designs.

The Stirling Cycle is the middle ground, originally developed by Sweden. And possibly the most widely used design , used on all Swedish origin submarines, Japanese submarines and through hook or crook, on the Chinese submarines.

The Fuel Cell technique systems are the most costly, most quiet of all types and Germans are the only one who have successfully mastered it on commercial scale. Fuel Cells can provide upto 33% higher endurance compared to other types. France is second country with a certified Fuel cell design. India has a working ground based prototype, Russians have experimental systems on Soviet era mini subs , but nothing of the scale which can power Amur1650 type design as of yet.

Fuel Cell technology will mean that top notch possible stealth. And since the Chinese Stirling system is not a licensed system, even two weeks of operation will be difficult. That's why except last year , Chinese used to send their Kilos all the way to Pakistan for their annual exercises.
One major issue from operational point of view, you haven't mentioned is the complexity & risk factor. The more silent, the more risks associated with the elements involved in AIP quitening. French MESMA is safer to operate than Sweedish which in turn is safer to operate than German AIP, relatively speaking.
 
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Ankit Kumar

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One major issue from operational point of view, you haven't mentioned is the complexity & risk factor. The more silent, the more risks associated with the elements involved in AIP quitening. French MESMA is safer to operate than Sweedish which in turn is safer to operate than German AIP, relatively speaking.

Obviously. The operations are complex. And dangerous. MESMA is relatively simple. But actually it's not the most safe one imo. Swedish Stirlings are the safest. In MESMA it's simply straight away burning of oxygen and ethanol. The steam straight away is used into the turbine. That actually is corrosive in nature and requires timely inspections to ensure safety. But MESMA as it straight away burns the oxygen and ethanol to run the turbine, it has one advantage that for short periods of time it can produce higher peak power outputs. But it's overall efficiency is not so high.

In Stirling, the fuel mixture is oxygen and some form of diesel only. And that generator then provides the power. For smaller Swedish submarines it's excellent. But as the size increases for bigger submarines, then there will be safety issues. Japanese therefore have started looking for Li batteries now.

PS: Most people just read that AIP elongates the submergence time of Diesel submarines. But what they don't understand is that AIP is not actually that useful if that SSK has duties which requires movement. The AIP allows for speed upto 4 knots max I think. With that speed it is impossible to chase any modern warship. Therefore I am against spending a fortune on P75I where the module itself alone will cost 100 million plus. It's not worth the investment.
You can but out here we already have one whose views at times are problematic to begin with & then we get pages defending the indefensible.

Why do you want to add to the clutter?
The circus will begin soon if we are to believe the noises about impending RFP release for P75I. Let's wait till then. 😂
 
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RISING SUN

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Obviously. The operations are complex. And dangerous. MESMA is relatively simple. But actually it's not the most safe one imo. Swedish Stirlings are the safest. In MESMA it's simply straight away burning of oxygen and ethanol. The steam straight away is used into the turbine. That actually is corrosive in nature and requires timely inspections to ensure safety. But MESMA as it straight away burns the oxygen and ethanol to run the turbine, it has one advantage that for short periods of time it can produce higher peak power outputs. But it's overall efficiency is not so high.

In Stirling, the fuel mixture is oxygen and some form of diesel only. And that generator then provides the power. For smaller Swedish submarines it's excellent. But as the size increases for bigger submarines, then there will be safety issues. Japanese therefore have started looking for Li batteries now.
Off course I agree with most of the points mentioned, hence I said relatively speaking. Different sizes change everything in comparison chart.
 
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RISING SUN

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Most people just read that AIP elongates the submergence time of Diesel submarines. But what they don't understand is that AIP is not actually that useful if that SSK has duties which requires movement. The AIP allows for speed upto 4 knots max I think. With that speed it is impossible to chase any modern warship. Therefore I am against spending a fortune on P75I where the module itself alone will cost 100 million plus. It's not worth the investment.
I believe it's 5 knots at maximum for AIP equipped boats, almost same. And yes SSKs are good for intelligence gathering mostly. Active warfare is yet to successfully demonstrated by SSks equipped with AIP. Another point, whatever speed is made, it's mostly used to stablize the boat as sea currents pull boat to quite a distance if not countered by boat maneuvering. Boats usually travel on diesel power to station point and thereon observe on AIP power while being almost stationary.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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I believe it's 5 knots at maximum for AIP equipped boats, almost same. And yes SSKs are good for intelligence gathering mostly. Active warfare is yet to successfully demonstrated by SSks equipped with AIP. Another point, whatever speed is made, it's mostly used to stablize the boat as sea currents pull boat to quite a distance if not countered by boat maneuvering. Boats usually travel on diesel power to station point and thereon observe on AIP power while being almost stationary.
It's good for ambush warfare not for hunting killing apart from patrolling littoral waters, escort duty within such waters & as you pointed out - intelligence gathering perhaps mine laying too if the enemy port isn't located too far off & within reach of our littoral waters .

Hunter killers requires agility , a task more suited for SSNs than for SSKs with or w/o AIP .

The IN actually has come up with a very good plan of having sub 1500 ton category subs to patrol our littoral waters for tasks detailed above, 2000-3000 tons subs for an intermediate role which would imply a bit of the role played by the sub 1500 tonners & the SSNs & finally the SSNs for blue water functions.
 
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Ashwin

Agent_47
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Pakistan’s New Type-039B AIP Submarines: Image Shows Shipyard Expansion
The Pakistan Navy's expansion is gearing up in Karachi. Major enhancements are evident at a shipyard, where a new construction hall and a dry dock greatly increase capacity. Although details are scarce, it seems likely that the local construction of Chinese-designed AIP (Air Independent Power) submarines will take place there.

Pakistan-Navy-Type-039A-Submarine-Shipyard-3-770x410.jpg


The eight Type-039B ‘Hangor Class’ submarines will be a major boost to the Pakistan Navy. They will more than double the size of the Pakistan Navy’s submarine fleet.


The new submarines are variant of the Chinese Navy’s Type-039A Yuan Class. Construction will be split between the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation (CSIC) and Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) in Karachi. KSEW previously participated in local construction of Pakistan’s French designed Agosta class submarines.


The construction site in Karachi may put to rest previous reports that the subs would be built in Ormara. In 2016 it was reported that the local submarine construction would occur at a new Submarine Rebuild Complex (SRC) being built there. No significant construction work is evident at Ormara.


The new construction hall and dry dock are at the southern end of KSEW’s Karachi shipyard site. Footings for the halls was first observed in 2015. The twin-lane halls have slowly taken shape since then. The outer shell appears largely complete. Under their roof there should be enough room to build two submarines in parallel.


Work on the aligned dry dock appears to have started in 2016. It is a Norwegian designed Syncrolift ship-lift type built out over the water. Manufacture of the sections likely took place in China. The dry dock is 126m (415 ft) long and 32m (105 ft) across and has a lifting capacity of 7,881 tons. This is large enough for the new submarines, and would allow frigate sized warships and larger submarines in future.



Based on current information the first of the new submarines, built in China, is expected to be delivered in 2022. Local construction of the last four hulls will last through to 2028. The acquisition from China is part of a trend. Several major Pakistan Navy warship programs have gone to China in recent years. And the Pakistan Navy and Chinese Navy already cooperate closely, included close exercises involving Chinese warships and Pakistan Navy submarines.

The construction halls will be conveniently close to the Pakistan Navy’s main submarine berths. They are also just north of the SSGNs (Special Service Group (Navy)) base at PNS Iqbal. This is where the Pakistan Navy’s X-Craft midget submarine program is based. It seems logical that any local construction of midget submarines will also take place at the new site.


The technology transfer will benefit KSEW. Their Stirling-based AIP (Air Independent Power/Propulsion) technology is different from the French MESMA system installed on Pakistan’s Agosta-90B type boats. Pakistan remains the only country to adopt the MESMA system. Type-039B submarines are a relatively conservative design however.

Pakistan-Navy-submarine-Chinese-Navy-1024x574.jpg

The Agosta-90B submarine was moored centrally among the Chinese warships. H I SUTTON. INCLUDES MATERIAL © PLANETSCOPE

The Type-039B submarines are likely to combine Chinese systems and weapons with Pakistani systems. Local weapons are expected to include the nuclear-capable Babur cruise missile. Armed with these the boats will form part of Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent. How this deterrence role will be reconciled with typical attack submarine duties remains unclear.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Mumbai
This is what I love about the Paxtani mentality. Designed by the Dutch, built at a Romanian shipyard, named after a place in KSA famous for being the first large scale expedition lead by Mohammed in his lifetime to battle the Byzantines which he couldn't coz the latter didn't show up in a class of corvettes named after the famous battle of Yarmouk which the Arabs under the leadership of Khalid ibn Walid won against the Byzantine Empire after Mo's death .

There's absolutely nothing Paxtani about it.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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Bangalore
This is what I love about the Paxtani mentality. Designed by the Dutch, built at a Romanian shipyard, named after a place in KSA famous for being the first large scale expedition lead by Mohammed in his lifetime to battle the Byzantines which he couldn't coz the latter didn't show up in a class of corvettes named after the famous battle of Yarmouk which the Arabs under the leadership of Khalid ibn Walid won against the Byzantine Empire after Mo's death .

There's absolutely nothing Paxtani about it.
They will add a launcher or two of refurbished Chinese ashms on these ships and will call them Pakistani developed.
 
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Arsalan123

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Jun 3, 2019
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PN holds Aman 2021 naval exercises with 41 other navies & all Paxtanis including the handle quoted are rejoicing that India has failed to isolate them yet in spite of repeated probing none of the handles have ever specified the scope of the exercise. Maybe you can oblige with further details. @safriz ; @Arsalan123
navy is expanding fast. navy will continue training with other countries. primary job is to defend our coastline. we have detected your subs twice. we can do whatever we want. on one hand, pak navy is expanding. on other hand, plan is lurking in indian ocean. very dangerous situation for india.
Lol, what a shame. A retired IA officer should not speak like this.
your people hate us so much that they try to humiliate us for the same thing again and again. 71 is over. i don't know what you guys want.