Pakistan Navy: News & Discussions

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Corvette PNS Yarmook made operational as of today.

View attachment 16819
A fine looking ship. The IN would certainly feel bad while sinking this one but the place of Yarmouk is in the past & that's where she'd be dispatched, Insha Allah. But tell us, maamu, you've such a fine ship building facility in Khi & you go to Romania of all places to have your junk built. Chakkar kya hain? Bahry foundation ko Khi ke shipyard se koi khaas faayda nahin hota?

PS - there's a Pakistan navy thread in the International section. Ashwin here tried hard to keep a straight face while creating & especially naming that thread . You ought to relocate it there.
 

Hydra

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PN is updating its fleet rapidly, both surface & subsurface fleets. A massive upgrade for a nation with a miniscule coastal line. Its really a threat to IN.
 

RISING SUN

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Angela Merkel dashes Imran Khan hopes to make Pak subs more lethal, says won’t help
A top German security panel headed by Chancellor Angela Merkel has turned down Pakistan’s request for supply of air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for its submarines that would allow them to stay underwater for weeks, people familiar with the matter said.

The decision taken by the German Federal Security Council headed by Chancellor Merkel was conveyed to the Pakistan embassy on August 6, people cited above said on conditions of anonymity.

Pakistan had made the request for access to the air independent propulsion system that can recharge submarine batteries without having to surface for longer periods. Pakistan had proposed the upgrade for submarines in its inventory and the Yuan class submarines being manufactured under joint China-Pakistan project in China.

The AIP system would have enhanced the combat capabilities of its submarines by allowing the diesel engines to run without atmospheric air for a week or more.

Conventional submarines have to surface almost every second day to run their air-breathing diesel engines, running the risk of detection.

An Indian official said Germany’s refusal to help Prime Minister Imran Khan’s government with this technology would “adversely impact its lethality and vulnerability”.

India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation is indigenously developing the system for the navy’s submarines. Last year, the effort crossed several milestones when it successfully tested a land-based prototype that New Delhi had then declared would have a “force multiplier effect on lethality of a diesel electric submarine”.

Pakistan watchers in Delhi said the primary reason for Germany to take a hard stance on Pakistan’s request was being attributed to its role in promoting terror, particularly Pakistan’s failure to cooperate in identifying the perpetrators of the truck bomb attack on the Germany Embassy in Kabul in May 2017.

Nearly 150 people were killed in the bombing that devastated a central area of Kabul near the embassy. The bombing, counted among the deadliest terror strikes in recent years, was linked to the Haqqani Network that is known in counter-terror circuits to be supported and directed by Pakistan deep state.

The Afghan National Directorate of Security had then gone on record to blame the Haqqani network based in neighbouring Pakistan for the terror strike and accused Pakistan’s spy agency ISI of helping in planning the attack. German officials have noted that Islamabad hadn’t pursued the investigations at its end.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Angela Merkel dashes Imran Khan hopes to make Pak subs more lethal, says won’t help
A top German security panel headed by Chancellor Angela Merkel has turned down Pakistan’s request for supply of air independent propulsion (AIP) systems for its submarines that would allow them to stay underwater for weeks, people familiar with the matter said.

The decision taken by the German Federal Security Council headed by Chancellor Merkel was conveyed to the Pakistan embassy on August 6, people cited above said on conditions of anonymity.

Pakistan had made the request for access to the air independent propulsion system that can recharge submarine batteries without having to surface for longer periods. Pakistan had proposed the upgrade for submarines in its inventory and the Yuan class submarines being manufactured under joint China-Pakistan project in China.

The AIP system would have enhanced the combat capabilities of its submarines by allowing the diesel engines to run without atmospheric air for a week or more.

Conventional submarines have to surface almost every second day to run their air-breathing diesel engines, running the risk of detection.

An Indian official said Germany’s refusal to help Prime Minister Imran Khan’s government with this technology would “adversely impact its lethality and vulnerability”.

India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation is indigenously developing the system for the navy’s submarines. Last year, the effort crossed several milestones when it successfully tested a land-based prototype that New Delhi had then declared would have a “force multiplier effect on lethality of a diesel electric submarine”.

Pakistan watchers in Delhi said the primary reason for Germany to take a hard stance on Pakistan’s request was being attributed to its role in promoting terror, particularly Pakistan’s failure to cooperate in identifying the perpetrators of the truck bomb attack on the Germany Embassy in Kabul in May 2017.

Nearly 150 people were killed in the bombing that devastated a central area of Kabul near the embassy. The bombing, counted among the deadliest terror strikes in recent years, was linked to the Haqqani Network that is known in counter-terror circuits to be supported and directed by Pakistan deep state.

The Afghan National Directorate of Security had then gone on record to blame the Haqqani network based in neighbouring Pakistan for the terror strike and accused Pakistan’s spy agency ISI of helping in planning the attack. German officials have noted that Islamabad hadn’t pursued the investigations at its end.
Aren't the subs China's constructing for the PN coming with an AIP? Unless the PN isn't quite convinced of the efficacy of the Chinese AIP & prefer the German ones.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Aren't the subs China's constructing for the PN coming with an AIP? Unless the PN isn't quite convinced of the efficacy of the Chinese AIP & prefer the German ones.
Stirling type AIP tech most likely acquired from unlicensed sources will not be as efficient.

Generally the MESMA cycle AIP of France is considered to be the cheapest (at around 70-100 million USD) , but most noisy and least efficient amongst all the AIP designs.

The Stirling Cycle is the middle ground, originally developed by Sweden. And possibly the most widely used design , used on all Swedish origin submarines, Japanese submarines and through hook or crook, on the Chinese submarines.

The Fuel Cell technique systems are the most costly, most quiet of all types and Germans are the only one who have successfully mastered it on commercial scale. Fuel Cells can provide upto 33% higher endurance compared to other types. France is second country with a certified Fuel cell design. India has a working ground based prototype, Russians have experimental systems on Soviet era mini subs , but nothing of the scale which can power Amur1650 type design as of yet.

Fuel Cell technology will mean that top notch possible stealth. And since the Chinese Stirling system is not a licensed system, even two weeks of operation will be difficult. That's why except last year , Chinese used to send their Kilos all the way to Pakistan for their annual exercises.
 

_Anonymous_

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Stirling type AIP tech most likely acquired from unlicensed sources will not be as efficient.

Generally the MESMA cycle AIP of France is considered to be the cheapest (at around 70-100 million USD) , but most noisy and least efficient amongst all the AIP designs.

The Stirling Cycle is the middle ground, originally developed by Sweden. And possibly the most widely used design , used on all Swedish origin submarines, Japanese submarines and through hook or crook, on the Chinese submarines.

The Fuel Cell technique systems are the most costly, most quiet of all types and Germans are the only one who have successfully mastered it on commercial scale. Fuel Cells can provide upto 33% higher endurance compared to other types. France is second country with a certified Fuel cell design. India has a working ground based prototype, Russians have experimental systems on Soviet era mini subs , but nothing of the scale which can power Amur1650 type design as of yet.

Fuel Cell technology will mean that top notch possible stealth. And since the Chinese Stirling system is not a licensed system, even two weeks of operation will be difficult. That's why except last year , Chinese used to send their Kilos all the way to Pakistan for their annual exercises.
I think I recall reading a post by PKS in Trishul saying the Chinese obtained licensed Sterling technology from Sweden after conclusion of an agreement somewhere in the mid 1990's

BTW, what's your opinion of the NMRL Fuel cell system on land that DRDO's developed?
 

RISING SUN

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I didn't get the relevance of this statement.
Their homegrown AIP and submarines are not as much reliable as Russian Kilo class boats are. Deploying less reliable boats means you need to not only send submarine support tenders along with submarines but also keep them in close range of the submerged boat to render support in case of emergency, hence more easier to track. Track the surface tender, you get the rough idea of the submarine position even if submerged. Had read it somewhere a while back, that's how Indian Navy's old & retired Tu planes had located Han submarine in Arabian sea once, with help from surface ships. Later on similar tactics were employed in tracking Chinese submarines in Indian Ocean far away from any land docking facility.
 
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_Anonymous_

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Their homegrown AIP and submarines are not as much reliable as Russian Kilo class boats are. Deploying less reliable boats means you need to not only send submarine support tenders along with submarines but also keep them in close range of the submerged boat to render support in case of emergency, hence more easier to track. Track the surface tender, you get the rough idea of the submarine position even if submerged. Had read it somewhere a while back, that's how Indian Navy's old & retired Tu planes had located Han submarine in Arabian sea once, with help from surface ships. Later on similar tactics were employed for tracking Chinese submarines in Indian Ocean far away from any land docking facility.
But didn't their Yuan class Subs make a port call in Karachi a few years ago? I distinctly recall reading a few articles on this development & their Yuan class subs are equipped with Stirling AIP systems.
 

RISING SUN

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But didn't their Yuan class Subs make a port call in Karachi a few years ago? I distinctly recall reading a few articles on this development & their Yuan class subs are equipped with Stirling AIP systems.
Read post 70, last line. Chinese are fine tuning their boats and AIP slowly now and venturing much more distance from their coast, gaining confidence now only. In past it was missing.

Their boats will travel more distance without support from tenders going forward as they remove the kinks from their AIP and submarine building and operations. Still lot to be done by them. In comparison our submarine boats(Diesel) don't travel very long distance operationally, I presume, however they do travel without tenders mostly. This is the difference.
 

Ankit Kumar

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I think I recall reading a post by PKS in Trishul saying the Chinese obtained licensed Sterling technology from Sweden after conclusion of an agreement somewhere in the mid 1990's

BTW, what's your opinion of the NMRL Fuel cell system on land that DRDO's developed?
Untill we fit a prototype on say one of our older Type 209 and test is vigorously for a year and half atleast, it would be difficult to say anything.

The way things are happening, if P75I happens we will likely have French Fuel Cell AIP added to both P75I and P75 subs.
 

_Anonymous_

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The way things are happening, if P75I happens we will likely have French Fuel Cell AIP added to both P75I and P75 subs.
Sort of negates the whole purpose of building an indigenous AIP. I don't think that's the right way to go. Assuming that the Project 75i is finalised in the next 2-3 years, it'd still take a good 5-7 years to launch a sub. By Dec 2021, MDL would've handed over the last of the Kalvari class to the IN. The next step for them is to get INS Kalvari for a MLU, install the indigenous AIP & start trials. This entire process shouldn't take more than 2-4 years starting 2022. Assuming it's a success, we can have the indigenous AIP installed in the Project -75i . There'd be sufficient time to have a tried & tested AIP by then.
 

vvabhiram

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Sep 18, 2019
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Genuine question. How leasing of ships/subs from other Navies works during war times? During 1971 war, Pakistan lost PNS Ghazi which was leased from USA. Does Pakistan have to pay full cost of the boat during such a scenario? India also leases subs from Russia.
 

Ankit Kumar

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Nov 30, 2017
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Sort of negates the whole purpose of building an indigenous AIP. I don't think that's the right way to go. Assuming that the Project 75i is finalised in the next 2-3 years, it'd still take a good 5-7 years to launch a sub. By Dec 2021, MDL would've handed over the last of the Kalvari class to the IN. The next step for them is to get INS Kalvari for a MLU, install the indigenous AIP & start trials. This entire process shouldn't take more than 2-4 years starting 2022. Assuming it's a success, we can have the indigenous AIP installed in the Project -75i . There'd be sufficient time to have a tried & tested AIP by then.
I said if P75I happens 😅

Otherwise untill some senior Naval guy has a really good friend in DRDO and personally gives time on this project, it will take years.

If program receives the required focus , the whole system will be certified in less than 5 years from the time of its base drawings. We have had a working ground based prototype for quite some time, the French more or less came up with their AIP after that and as of today they are actually offering countries around the world to retrofit that system. The French guys might be able to give more info. But everything boils down to priorities.

Certain sections in Navy are more interested in looking like USN atleast on the outside, even if means no SSNs under water, or Minesweepers or other important things. Aircraft Carriers are important, but not at cost of other capabilities.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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I said if P75I happens 😅

Otherwise untill some senior Naval guy has a really good friend in DRDO and personally gives time on this project, it will take years.

If program receives the required focus , the whole system will be certified in less than 5 years from the time of its base drawings. We have had a working ground based prototype for quite some time, the French more or less came up with their AIP after that and as of today they are actually offering countries around the world to retrofit that system. The French guys might be able to give more info. But everything boils down to priorities.

Certain sections in Navy are more interested in looking like USN atleast on the outside, even if means no SSNs under water, or Minesweepers or other important things. Aircraft Carriers are important, but not at cost of other capabilities.
Looks like P-75i will happen whether we like it or not. I also think the IN is personally vested with the indigenous AIP project. The external solution for the AIP vide project P-75i is some sort of a built in redundancy if the indigenous project fails. Much like MMRCA 2.0 .