Need for 5th Generation fighters for IAF.

Sathya

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#21
We should join the british tempest project.The russians are not serious atm about building a true stealth fighter,having focused their doctrine on SAMs and tactical missiles with nukes.They dont have money to build a 5th gen with true stealth features.
They got Back u p F35 or whatever latest US stealth ...
We got to depend on someone who depends on their own product.
 
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#22
wish we can RV Russian and Western jets like Israel,China, Iran and produce our own versions of 4th gen. fighters, we also missed a golden opportunity to get Lavi/J-10 technology from salty Israel when we were treading in billions during those times.

imagine 200+ J-10/Lavis in Indian Air force alongside 300 Su-30MKIs.
 
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#24
We are not going to take part in the development aspect of the FGFA, but we will most likely be choosing the MKI route with license production or a flyaway option or both. You can even say a flyaway GTG like Rafale can give way to a production deal later on.

We do not have plans for developing an aircraft in the PAK FA's class anytime soon, so we have no choice but to import some in its class. And as the Varthaman Committee pointed out, FGFA and AMCA do not clash when it comes to roles, so AMCA can't replace FGFA.
how much can we change geometric stealth of Su, if we are going for drastic change in structure component? I am just thinking if we can have this change in super sukhoi upgrade. What would be the cost of changing current structure to make it have less RCS just by structure change? Obviously we may have to go for aerodynamics testing but if we can try to achieve it in 2-3 years won't it be a better option for sukhoi upgrade to make it touch 4.5 gen? I am not sure if this is already on plate.
 

randomradio

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#26
how much can we change geometric stealth of Su, if we are going for drastic change in structure component?
PAK FA? Nothing needs to be changed. We wanted to design a new bird, but later decided the PAK FA's airframe is good enough.

I am just thinking if we can have this change in super sukhoi upgrade. What would be the cost of changing current structure to make it have less RCS just by structure change? Obviously we may have to go for aerodynamics testing but if we can try to achieve it in 2-3 years won't it be a better option for sukhoi upgrade to make it touch 4.5 gen? I am not sure if this is already on plate.
MKI?

It's impossible. All we can do now is treat the inlet and change the engine, introduce a less reflective cockpit, angle the radar away etc. But can't turn it into a stealth aircraft.
 
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#29
I think we have few options!

1. F-35 - Do not go for F-21 + F-35 deal. Wait for more time, link it with EMAL tech+F-35 for our new AC. So IN wil have F-35.

2. AMCA :-

a. Join South Korean programme for a complete stealth version.
b. Make own AMCA with huge delays. I think we should go for a semi stealth MCA-2 first, like latest F-15

3. Rafale F4/F5? as per IAF assessment, they are more better than Su-57
4. Join European dream of stealth as a partner.
 

randomradio

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#30
Yes it is cheaper and more cost-effective too. But I am talking about their combat capabilities.
Yep. That's why we chose the Rafale. All round a better option. ;)

On a more serious note, for now, the IAF values EW over stealth. If you recall, the Aim-120Cs fired by the PAF F-16s were largely useless against the IAF. So it doesn't make sense for us to go for something that's yet untested, like stealth. Better to go for what we know already works.

And the Americans aren't the standard to follow since they gave up on active EW for stealth after the Cold War and have now significantly regretted their decision. They have now decided to incorporate stealth and active EW in their upcoming PCA.

The Rafale is a significantly more survivable aircraft than any other, including the F-22 and F-35, simply because no missile will be able to lock on to it due to its superlative EW capabilities, but at the same time the Rafale doesn't need its radar to lock on to an enemy aircraft. Otoh, in just a few years, most upcoming missiles will be able to lock on to the F-22/F-35 and there's nothing these aircraft can do about it. The Russian K-77 should already be able to do it with its new digital AESA seeker. The F-35 has a limited active EW suite and the F-22's is non-existent.

The F-35 can become an option for us in the mid 2030s, when they will release a more modernised version with a new 6th gen engine and a full fledged EW suite. Only then will it become an all round package that can beat the Rafale package.

Anyway, in terms of costs, the F-35 is more expensive than even the upcoming F-15X.

F-15X Will Come In Two Variants, And No, It Won't Cost $100M Per Copy
He added that Air Force needs to buy 72 fighters a year to get to the amount they need in the future — and to drive average aircraft age down from 28 years to 15 years. And while Goldfein might want all 72 to be fifth generation F-35s, budgetary concerns likely won’t let that happen.

“If we had the money, those would be 72 F-35s. But we’ve gotta look at this from a cost/business case.” he explained. “An F-15 will never be an F-35. Never. But I need capacity.”


The Rafale is much cheaper than the F-35. The Rafale's initial flyaway cost is higher because of its better specs compared to the F-35, but more than makes up for it due to its significantly lower operations cost and significantly lesser infrastructure requirement.
 
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#31
And the Americans aren't the standard to follow since they gave up on active EW for stealth after the Cold War and have now significantly regretted their decision.
The Rafale is a significantly more survivable aircraft than any other, including the F-22 and F-35
Such bullshit.
Anyway, in terms of costs, the F-35 is more expensive than even the upcoming F-15X.

F-15X Will Come In Two Variants, And No, It Won't Cost $100M Per Copy
He added that Air Force needs to buy 72 fighters a year to get to the amount they need in the future — and to drive average aircraft age down from 28 years to 15 years. And while Goldfein might want all 72 to be fifth generation F-35s, budgetary concerns likely won’t let that happen.

“If we had the money, those would be 72 F-35s. But we’ve gotta look at this from a cost/business case.” he explained. “An F-15 will never be an F-35. Never. But I need capacity.”

The Rafale is much cheaper than the F-35. The Rafale's initial flyaway cost is higher because of its better specs compared to the F-35, but more than makes up for it due to its significantly lower operations cost and significantly lesser infrastructure requirement.
The USAF doesn't want F15X and never asked for it.

It is cheaper for them to buy more F15's to replace the old ones because the infrastructure and pilots for those already exist so it's just plug and play whereas you would need to make that spend in case of the F-35.

The Rafale is more costly than the F35 on a unit basis. (105 vs 80)
The Rafale is more costly than the F35 in terms of infrastructure ($1 billion base, *censored* me)
The Rafale would have hideous MLU costs (re: $40 million per unit M2K upgrade)
The Rafale has similarly ridiculously priced weapons (AASM, MICA) because of their limited production.

Most importantly “A Rafale will never be an F-35. Never."
 

randomradio

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#32
I think we have few options!

1. F-35 - Do not go for F-21 + F-35 deal. Wait for more time, link it with EMAL tech+F-35 for our new AC. So IN wil have F-35.
We will be getting EMALS from the US anyway.

2. AMCA :-

a. Join South Korean programme for a complete stealth version.
b. Make own AMCA with huge delays. I think we should go for a semi stealth MCA-2 first, like latest F-15
a. The link up with S Korea is a terrible idea. They themselves will get help from the US. They do not have the expertise necessary to help us. Rather their program is less ambitious than ours. They plan to develop a Rafale class fighter jet first.

b. No, we will be going for a full fledged 5.5th gen jet, with supercruise. Past delays have nothing to do with any potential delays to be encountered in future programs. Unlike LCA, AMCA will follow a tried and tested process, whereas LCA had us collectively groping in the dark.

3. Rafale F4/F5? as per IAF assessment, they are more better than Su-57
Not true. The FGFA is a full generation ahead compared to the Rafale. It's far too advanced to be compared to the Rafale. Btw, F5 doesn't exist even on paper.

You can expect the PAK FA/FGFA to be at least 10 years ahead compared to anything on the Rafale. Size matters. The Russians will make bigger and bulkier versions of new tech that can fit in a large aircraft, whereas the French will have to wait for the same tech to mature before using it. This is the primary reason why ships will always be more advanced than fighter jets.

4. Join European dream of stealth as a partner.
It's an option but it's too far ahead. Plus, you can expect it to be unaffordable with our current economic standards, while we are also pursuing our own programs. Rather, you can expect the French program to be a possible stop gap option after it is developed while we make our own jets.

The MCA/MWF will put us on par with other global players. So don't worry about our future, it's bright. It's the present that is the real problem.
 

randomradio

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#33
Nope. It's actually basic common sense. Active EW stops missiles. No EW stops nothing.

The USAF doesn't want F15X and never asked for it.

It is cheaper for them to buy more F15's to replace the old ones because the infrastructure and pilots for those already exist so it's just plug and play whereas you would need to make that spend in case of the F-35.
That's not how the math works. Even if the MKI is cheaper in terms of flyaway cost, it's cheaper to buy and operate the "twice as expensive" Rafale.

The F-15 purchase owes more to the immaturity of the F-35. Cost is simply one aspect. That's the reason why even the Israelis are going for more F-15s.
Israel Prefers Old F-15s to F-35s

Don't get fooled by marketing, just look at the situation on the ground.

Even in the Korean competition, they found the F-35 to be the most expensive of all competing aircraft, which included both F-15 and Typhoon.

The Rafale is more costly than the F35 on a unit basis. (105 vs 80)
Yes, because the Rafale has better specs in some areas. Already mentioned.

The Rafale is more costly than the F35 in terms of infrastructure ($1 billion base, *censored* me)
The F-35 is more expensive. ALIS alone will cost a lot more, and this is not counting all the regional hubs of ALIS at each individual base.

Plus it is still a WIP.
Pentagon to Redesign F-35 Program’s ALIS Computer Backbone

So its actual cost is still unknown.

The Rafale base cost is for 2 squadrons at the minimum.

The Rafale would have hideous MLU costs (re: $40 million per unit M2K upgrade)
The F-35's MLU costs would be ridiculous considering its R&D spending itself is now more than the Rafale's full program cost.

The Rafale has similarly ridiculously priced weapons (AASM, MICA) because of their limited production.
French weapons have longer lives than American weapons. For example, the AMRAAM's is 15 years. MICA's is 25 years. The quality pays for itself.

In the long run, weapons cost will be irrelevant since it will be all Indian anyway. Only piecemeal imports, which will be negligible. So this is a problem for other countries.

Most importantly “A Rafale will never be an F-35. Never."
"An F-35 will never be a Rafale. Never."
 
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#34
PAK FA? Nothing needs to be changed. We wanted to design a new bird, but later decided the PAK FA's airframe is good enough.



MKI?

It's impossible. All we can do now is treat the inlet and change the engine, introduce a less reflective cockpit, angle the radar away etc. But can't turn it into a stealth aircraft.
That's ok, I was not curious about changing it into stealth. But if we can reduce the RCS as much as we can, how much cost effective that approach wud be with our current lot of su, say 6 squadrons? Also, what about wings, cant we change into composite structure?
 
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#35
Nope. It's actually basic common sense. Active EW stops missiles. No EW stops nothing.



That's not how the math works. Even if the MKI is cheaper in terms of flyaway cost, it's cheaper to buy and operate the "twice as expensive" Rafale.

The F-15 purchase owes more to the immaturity of the F-35. Cost is simply one aspect. That's the reason why even the Israelis are going for more F-15s.
Israel Prefers Old F-15s to F-35s

Don't get fooled by marketing, just look at the situation on the ground.

Even in the Korean competition, they found the F-35 to be the most expensive of all competing aircraft, which included both F-15 and Typhoon.



Yes, because the Rafale has better specs in some areas. Already mentioned.



The F-35 is more expensive. ALIS alone will cost a lot more, and this is not counting all the regional hubs of ALIS at each individual base.

Plus it is still a WIP.
Pentagon to Redesign F-35 Program’s ALIS Computer Backbone

So its actual cost is still unknown.

The Rafale base cost is for 2 squadrons at the minimum.



The F-35's MLU costs would be ridiculous considering its R&D spending itself is now more than the Rafale's full program cost.



French weapons have longer lives than American weapons. For example, the AMRAAM's is 15 years. MICA's is 25 years. The quality pays for itself.

In the long run, weapons cost will be irrelevant since it will be all Indian anyway. Only piecemeal imports, which will be negligible. So this is a problem for other countries.



"An F-35 will never be a Rafale. Never."
So what we have learned today is that the F35 is a next gen fighter completely on a league of its own. It's capabilities are leagues ahead of other fighter jets except F-22 in certain domains. There has never been a program conceived with the scale and breadth of its capabilities, be it VLO, VTOL, Carrier operations etc. or one that will simultaneously replace as many types in service as the F35 will (F16, F18, Harrier, A-10, F-15E/F).

Yet it is cheaper than all those previous gen fighters. The rest of the world is busy catching up (China/Russia) and those that don't have the ability to do it themselves are forming partnerships to do so (Europe, SK-Indo).

Meanwhile in a little corner of a forum somewhere.......
 
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#36
We have two unorthodox options.

1) like Lavi/J-10, Japan have cancelled their 5th gn fighter x-2 project due to american pressure.

We can get prototypes and technology from Japan and continue the project as AMCA.

2) get some F-35 and quietly rv it and incorporate some of its tech to AMCA.
 

randomradio

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#37
That's ok, I was not curious about changing it into stealth. But if we can reduce the RCS as much as we can, how much cost effective that approach wud be with our current lot of su, say 6 squadrons? Also, what about wings, cant we change into composite structure?
It's not yet known to what extent we will use composites in the MKI MLU. Yes, it can reduce RCS to a certain extent.

A treated MKI is said to have an RCS well below 4m2. The Su-35's RCS is close to 1m2. So we should be able to match that or further reduce it to a bit below 1m2, but that's about it. Inlet treatment and a new engine will help reduce RCS by quite a bit, and this is planned.
 

randomradio

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#38
So what we have learned today is that the F35 is a next gen fighter completely on a league of its own. It's capabilities are leagues ahead of other fighter jets except F-22 in certain domains. There has never been a program conceived with the scale and breadth of its capabilities, be it VLO, VTOL, Carrier operations etc. or one that will simultaneously replace as many types in service as the F35 will (F16, F18, Harrier, A-10, F-15E/F).

Yet it is cheaper than all those previous gen fighters. The rest of the world is busy catching up (China/Russia) and those that don't have the ability to do it themselves are forming partnerships to do so (Europe, SK-Indo).

Meanwhile in a little corner of a forum somewhere.......
That little corner of a forum is much more informed after all.

The Rafale is the only operational aircraft today that is carrying a cloaking device.
 
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#39
Such bullshit.

The USAF doesn't want F15X and never asked for it.

It is cheaper for them to buy more F15's to replace the old ones because the infrastructure and pilots for those already exist so it's just plug and play whereas you would need to make that spend in case of the F-35.

The Rafale is more costly than the F35 on a unit basis. (105 vs 80)
The Rafale is more costly than the F35 in terms of infrastructure ($1 billion base, *censored* me)
The Rafale would have hideous MLU costs (re: $40 million per unit M2K upgrade)
The Rafale has similarly ridiculously priced weapons (AASM, MICA) because of their limited production.

Most importantly “A Rafale will never be an F-35. Never."
Rafael at best is a 4.5++ fighter while F-35 is a true 5th generation fighter aircraft.
 
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#40
Better idea for me is to get X-2 shinshin prototypes from Japan and develop it as our own stealth fighter.

Japan cancelled x-2 for F-35 due to us pressure so it's a Golden opportunity for us.

Basically IAI Lavi of Jews > J-10 all over again
 
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