MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 27 12.5%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 169 78.2%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.8%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 10 4.6%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 5 2.3%

  • Total voters
    216

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,585
1,526
India
No relation. Three different fighter jet requirements. They don't clash. After a point, not even a financial clash, which used to plague us in the older days.

AMCA or F-35/Su-57/NGAD/FCAS/Tempest... Depends on the status of AMCA.
I meant options available right now against Chinese until amca gets inducted.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,535
10,779
India
I meant options available right now against Chinese until amca gets inducted.

The question is if the Rafale or F-35A can actually defeat the upcoming J-20X.

The Chinese have made enough progress to completely upset previous calculations. Stuff people thought would take the Chinese 5-10 years more have already been achieved. It would explain why the Pentagon is in such a hurry to replace the F-35A's engine, not just the fact that the older engine is facing reliability issues.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,754
1,319
Mumbai
The pressure on us will be even greater this time round. Even more so if the IN ends up going for the SH.

Unlike the French, where we have leverage over them, the Americans have leverage over us.
No, if thats the case Kaveri would have powering MK1a or atleast MK2.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,754
1,319
Mumbai
Buying some f-35B's and f-35A's won't be a bad idea. Since the su-57 is now dead for the most part.
Like we can get hands on around 24-36 F35A's for atleast 5 billion $ all things considered. That will be enough to deter the Chinese and Pakistanis. Later we can buy atleast 18-32 f-35 B's for the upcoming lhd's. Our whole naval projection is fixed. Rest can be invested on the indigenous projects.
25 billion on mmrca. 4-5 billion on f-35's till amca matures. Then we upgrade rest of the fleet to 4++ standard then focus on producing as many tejas mk1 and mk 2
After Moskva incident,The IAF veterans started making noise against large surface fleets, they want india to stop pour money on surface fleets. And i don't think helicopter career & 3rd AC will be a reality, i fear even new destroyers & frigates will be reviewed by MOD due to pressure from IAF.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
3,812
3,677
Bangalore
After Moskva incident,The IAF veterans started making noise against large surface fleets, they want india to stop pour money on surface fleets. And i don't think helicopter career & 3rd AC will be a reality, i fear even new destroyers & frigates will be reviewed by MOD due to pressure from IAF.
Everyone will make compromises. IAF will have to loose it's huge helicopter fleet to Army Aviation in future. Airforce will have to loose Air Space protection of A&N to IN. IAF will also have to loose on UAVs/UCAVs to other two forces.

Similarly IN will have to fill the capability gaps before it goes for something else. But carriers will eventually happen.

That Slava sunk due to its own obsolete nature. It will actually boost INs demand for more ships with MF STAR capabilities.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,754
1,319
Mumbai
Everyone will make compromises. IAF will have to loose it's huge helicopter fleet to Army Aviation in future. Airforce will have to loose Air Space protection of A&N to IN. IAF will also have to loose on UAVs/UCAVs to other two forces.

Similarly IN will have to fill the capability gaps before it goes for something else. But carriers will eventually happen.

That Slava sunk due to its own obsolete nature. It will actually boost INs demand for more ships with MF STAR capabilities.
I fear intense lobbying is happening against IN.
 

A Person

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
1,007
1,004
A Place
One thing the USA have been quite consistent about their F-35 sales is that they're only offered to countries that already operate American fighters. F-16 or F/A-18. For India they've been saying "if you buy the F-16, we'll sell you the F-35 later".
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,451
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73
France

Rafale F4 fighter jet pilots to wear augmented reality helmets​



Thales received an order from the Directorate General for Armaments (DGA), the French defense procurement agency, for 350 Scorpion helmet-mounted sight and display systems 400 digital multi-function displays. They should equip the pilots of the future F4 standard of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet, currently under development.

The Scorpion sight displays information from the aircraft onboard sensors and can also be used to designate and track targets anywhere in the crew's field of view in daylight and at night, according to Thales.

As for the digital multi-function displays, they should replace the lateral displays currently installed in the Rafale of the French Air Force to inform the pilot about the status of the aircraft systems. The new displays will provide a larger display area, an improved touchscreen interface, and greater processing power.

“When the success of a mission is decided in a fraction of a second, aircrews must be able to understand the tactical environment quickly and interact intuitively with the aircraft’s systems,” commented Jean-Paul Ebanga, Vice President, Flight Avionics, Thales. “We are delighted to have this opportunity to provide future Rafale F4 crews with an operational advantage that will be critical to the success of their missions, thanks to latest-generation equipment offering advanced display capabilities and enhanced interaction with the weapon systems.”

The F4 Standard will focus on improving the connectivity of the Rafale with other systems through “new satellite and intra-patrol links, communication server, software radio.” Thus, the fighter will be able to integrate into the Future Combat Air System that France, Germany, and Spain are conjointly developing.

In April 2021, a month after the French Air and Space Army and the French Navy signed the operational entry into service of the F3R standard, flight tests of the Rafale F4 started at the Dassault Aviation Flight Test Center in Istres, southeastern France.

350 helmets means that we want to equip 350 pilots, which corresponds to 350/1.4 = 250 aircraft. This shows that the French needs are evolving since we were rather at 225 aircraft.
Or we will do 280 hours per aircraft for 30 years since the potential is now 9000 hours which makes 1.55 pilots per aircraft
 
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Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,554
1,004
Delhi
the Su-57 is bound to be better than the J-20
Let's be real here. The Chinese now make superior flanker variants than the Russians. The Russians have made a single su-57 while the number of j-20's is anywhere between 36-150 according to estimates. J-20 uses more modern materials too. That discussion would make sense in 2019. That time is long gone. One thing is clear though the f-35 is still superior to j-20 in every way.
 
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Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,554
1,004
Delhi
After Moskva incident,The IAF veterans started making noise against large surface fleets, they want india to stop pour money on surface fleets. And i don't think helicopter career & 3rd AC will be a reality, i fear even new destroyers & frigates will be reviewed by MOD due to pressure from IAF.
Source because that's a tabloid tier take. Moskva was an extremely outdated design. Russian navy is a joke for all purposes they have extremely bad maintenance and suffer unreliability issues on their ships quite regularly. Modern ship design with vls offer much more survivability. The Moskva had the p-700/1000 without any protection on the surface. No wonder it sank.
What we need though is a lot more submarines, corvettes and frigates. But we need atleast 3-6 10,000 ton destroyers/cruisers. Large capital ships are a requirement.
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,535
10,779
India
No, if thats the case Kaveri would have powering MK1a or atleast MK2.

Already mentioned it, Kaveri development temporarily stopped due to the lack of a test bed, plus the fact that the HAL wanted to continue with F404 in order to reduce risk and deliver jets on time.

We wouldn't have started FUFA if we weren't confident about Kaveri.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,535
10,779
India
One thing the USA have been quite consistent about their F-35 sales is that they're only offered to countries that already operate American fighters. F-16 or F/A-18. For India they've been saying "if you buy the F-16, we'll sell you the F-35 later".

For India, it's just marketing. It's more like, "If you want local production, buy the F-16 first and then the F-35".

If we actually create a new requirement for the F-35, they will offer it, but without ToT.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,554
1,004
Delhi
For India, it's just marketing. It's more like, "If you want local production, buy the F-16 first and then the F-35".

If we actually create a new requirement for the F-35, they will offer it, but without ToT.
Thailand is buying the f-35's and they fly gripen's.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,535
10,779
India
Let's be real here. The Chinese now make superior flanker variants than the Russians. The Russians have made a single su-57 while the number of j-20's is anywhere between 36-150 according to estimates. J-20 uses more modern materials too. That discussion would make sense in 2019. That time is long gone. One thing is clear though the f-35 is still superior to j-20 in every way.

The Chinese will eventually get better than the Russians. But due to the engine tech, the Chinese will be behind the Russians for the moment, at least this cycle. No one knows what materials either jet uses. Your numbers argument is basically saying, because there are only a handful of LCAs versus 150+ JF-17s, the JF-17 is the superior jet.

The J-20's airframe design is meant for some other role that the F-35 isn't suited for. The performance advantage is way too big, it makes the F-35 irrelevant.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,554
1,004
Delhi
The Chinese will eventually get better than the Russians. But due to the engine tech, the Chinese will be behind the Russians for the moment, at least this cycle. No one knows what materials either jet uses. Your numbers argument is basically saying, because there are only a handful of LCAs versus 150+ JF-17s, the JF-17 is the superior jet.

The J-20's airframe design is meant for some other role that the F-35 isn't suited for. The performance advantage is way too big, it makes the F-35 irrelevant.
The j-20 is meant for long rang sniping or flanking enemy aircrafts something similar to the f-22. The f-35 can do that job too along with ground targets. J-20 aur frame is bad. And that's a fact. The su-57 is superior aerodynamically but is inferior in terms of build quality. Also the tejas and jf-17 argument doesn't work here because tejas has atleast 24 working pieces along with 8 prototypes. The jf-17 has 130 work pieces.
The su-57 has only a single air frame compared to j-20's 36-150 airframes. J-20 has an eots the su-57 doesn't. The j-20 can do offensive missions the su-57 is essentially designed as a counter stealth defensive aircraft like their flankers.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,535
10,779
India
The j-20 is meant for long rang sniping or flanking enemy aircrafts something similar to the f-22.

It's an air superiority aircraft, capable of all missions related to fighting in the air, even dog fighting. You are referring to an interceptor like the Mig-31.

The f-35 can do that job too along with ground targets.

Nope. In fact, the J-20 would be better against ground targets too. The performance advantage will mean 8 F-35s are needed to do the job of 2 J-20s. And with J-20s protecting the air, the F-35s will have a very hard time executing any mission that involves actually fighting the J-20.

There is only one real plan for the F-35. Fire missiles at the J-20 and pray it works. If it doesn't, the F-35 is cooked. That's not a characteristic of a fighter that's meant to fight ASFs.

J-20 aur frame is bad. And that's a fact.

How do you know that?

The su-57 is superior aerodynamically but is inferior in terms of build quality.

This as well?

Also the tejas and jf-17 argument doesn't work here because tejas has atleast 24 working pieces along with 8 prototypes. The jf-17 has 130 work pieces.
The su-57 has only a single air frame compared to j-20's 36-150 airframes. J-20 has an eots the su-57 doesn't.

The numbers in operation doesn't matter. All it means is if Russia fights China today, the J-20 will have an advantage. But that doesn't take away the platform superiority of the Su-57.

The j-20 can do offensive missions the su-57 is essentially designed as a counter stealth defensive aircraft like their flankers.

You don't even realise the kind of engine advantage the Su-57 has over the J-20.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,554
1,004
Delhi
It's an air superiority aircraft, capable of all missions related to fighting in the air, even dog fighting. You are referring to an interceptor like the Mig-31.



Nope. In fact, the J-20 would be better against ground targets too. The performance advantage will mean 8 F-35s are needed to do the job of 2 J-20s. And with J-20s protecting the air, the F-35s will have a very hard time executing any mission that involves actually fighting the J-20.

There is only one real plan for the F-35. Fire missiles at the J-20 and pray it works. If it doesn't, the F-35 is cooked. That's not a characteristic of a fighter that's meant to fight ASFs.



How do you know that?



This as well?



The numbers in operation doesn't matter. All it means is if Russia fights China today, the J-20 will have an advantage. But that doesn't take away the platform superiority of the Su-57.



You don't even realise the kind of engine advantage the Su-57 has over the J-20.
How in the hell does j-20 outperform the f35 in bvr. When it's RCS is closer to the Rafale with spectra on, rather than the f-35. You are completely wrong on this.
Also how does a j-20 does an a2g mission better than the f-35. When it's the f-35 that has the option to use variety of stand off smart munitions that the Chinese haven't even developed like the jsm, som, Jassm-er, spear 3, stormbreaker And so on. The Chinese have nothing of that sort on the j20
You don't even realise the kind of engine advantage the Su-57
I realise it but does it matter when the Chinese most likely have a better and bigger radar with a more modern cockpit in use than the su-57.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,076
705
California
Nope. In fact, the J-20 would be better against ground targets too. The performance advantage will mean 8 F-35s are needed to do the job of 2 J-20s. And with J-20s protecting the air, the F-35s will have a very hard time executing any mission that involves actually fighting the J-20.

There is only one real plan for the F-35. Fire missiles at the J-20 and pray it works. If it doesn't, the F-35 is cooked. That's not a characteristic of a fighter that's meant to fight ASFs.
Lol. Are you a pakistani pretending to be Indian so that you can make Indians look dumb?

That is the most dumbest thing I've read and I've read just about every stupid claim about the F-35 but yours wins the dumb award. Congrats!
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