MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 27 12.5%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 169 78.2%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.8%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 10 4.6%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 5 2.3%

  • Total voters
    216

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,670
1,586
India
Adding import duty & sales tax on defense equipment is the weirdest non sense we have in india. Government is purchasing something for government, government is taxing on it so that the tax Will go to government.

I think that is a necessary.
So the foreign weapons won't become cheaper than indian weapons who ll be paying all taxes. .
 
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randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,955
India
A 100 million dollar jet made elsewhere, if assembled in India will easily cost 150 million USD.

Correction: A 100 million dollar jet made elsewhere, if assembled in HAL will easily cost 150 million USD.

The problem isn't India, or we wouldn't have a local industry. The problem is the inefficiencies within PSUs. For example, HAL still employs stenographers, but they all just sit around completely and utterly jobless while still pulling a decent salary and awaiting retirement. There are many other positions that are entirely useless, but HAL cannot kick those employees out like the private sector can. Case in point the massive $10B VRS scheme that saw 70% of BSNL and 95% of MTNL employees leaving employment prematurely with full salaries and benefits.

And then the PSUs do their best to ensure competition doesn't come up within the private sector. So, while the private sector are champs wherever PSUs aren't involved, like the automobile industry, they struggle competing on sectors where PSUs have monopolies. I hope that by the end of the decade PSU monopolies end.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
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India
40 million USD Su30MKI if assembled in Irkut and then refitted in a Base Repair Depot at IAF will cost more than 100 million per piece. Just wait for the numbers of 12 Su30MKI deal.

Not a fair comparison. The 12 new jets are not standard MKIs, the final cost is also expected to carry R&D costs. And the Irkut supplied kits don't contain a lot of the electronics that are actually built and assembled in India, like the entire EW suite, comm system and so on. These are added in by HAL during CKD assembly and overhauls.
 

Hydra

Senior member
May 19, 2020
2,907
1,383
Mumbai
I think that is a necessary.
So the foreign weapons won't become cheaper than indian weapons who ll be paying all taxes. .
Even indian origin weapons are also taxable.
Not a fair comparison. The 12 new jets are not standard MKIs, the final cost is also expected to carry R&D costs. And the Irkut supplied kits don't contain a lot of the electronics that are actually built and assembled in India, like the entire EW suite, comm system and so on. These are added in by HAL during CKD assembly and overhauls.
Why customization for mere 12 units?
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,532
4,142
74
France
L’IRAK EN ROUTE VERS UN DOUBLE CONTRAT RAFALE ET H225M.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

IRAQ ON ITS WAY TO A DOUBLE RAFALE AND H225M CONTRACT.


In this case, the Iraqis are playing at being naughty copiers with the Emiratis but not on the same scale. For several weeks Baghdad and Paris have been negotiating the export of fourteen Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 omni-purpose fighter jets in order to reinforce the capabilities of the Iraqi air force. It is now known that the latter wishes to acquire a sort of package since ten to twelve Airbus Helicopters H225M twin-engine helicopters should be added to it. It is therefore a form of return to its roots for this country, which was a loyal customer of France during the Baathist era.

The Iraqi will to acquire the French Rafale F4 fighter is becoming more and more apparent. The option of a contract partly (or even entirely) paid in kind via the riches of the Iraqi subsoil is now official. To put it simply, Baghdad is offering ultra-modern fighter planes in exchange for oil, which, in view of the crisis with Russia, could definitively tip the balance in favour of this formerly frequent and now increasingly unusual method of payment. Paris could thus find itself sheltered from the sanctions imposed by dictator Vladimir Putin on the Allies in terms of energy. And for Dassault Aviation to see its products flying again under the Iraqi flag would be a nice way to thumb its nose at history. Many pseudo experts had bet on a complete loss of French influence after the collapse of Iraqi Baathism.

The fourteen future Rafale F4s will show them how wrong they were at the time, while confirming that the French omni-fighter remains a safe bet in 2022. Iraq is expected to be the first contract of Macron's second five-year term.

More surprisingly, Baghdad is now looking to acquire between ten and twelve Airbus Helicopters H225M. These high-end twin-engine helicopters would allow the Iraqis to return to the forefront in terms of assault transport but also search and rescue in combat, the two specialties of this European machine. Above all, they would allow the Iraqi air force to retire the old Bell UH-1H Iroquois single-engine helicopters acquired second-hand from the US Army in 2006 and now on their last legs. The method of payment for these future helicopters is not known but the solution envisaged for the Rafale seems particularly well suited to the H225M.

We have also learned that Baghdad is negotiating the sale of French-made CAESAr artillery pieces, but this is outside our field of competence.

As you can see, 2022 will undoubtedly be a year rich in arms contracts between Baghdad and Paris, showing that the Franco-Iraqi military-economic alliance remains strong. Airbus Helicopters and Dassault Aviation remain champions of the French economy in export markets.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,612
1,025
Delhi
The RFP will be issued as soon as it's drafted and approved. So we are talking June/July 2022.

And if we go by MMRCA dates, the process took 4.5 years from RFP to L1. With a June/July release, the same should take us to the end of 2026. Of course, MMRCA was delayed due to the slow pace of technical evaluations. 2.5+ years to shortlist, mid-2008 to early 2011 plus Saab delayed the process by 6 months on their own, which won't be the case this time. The new process is expected to be much faster, so we could say 3 to 3.5 years at best. The L1 decision to be made by 2025-26.

So it's the post L1 negotiations that could kill the program. Generally it should be done within 6 months. If DRAL leads the program for Rafale, then it can be done even before that. If HAL, then you know the drill. For now, we can assume DRAL will lead Rafale.

My estimate is 6 months for RFP, 6 months for paper evals, 2 months for flight evals, 6 months for shortlist and 6 months for price discovery. Add an additional 6 months for delays. So 32 months. If things go well, we could sign the contract well within 3 years.
The deal was meant to happen by 2019. What's this madness?🤔
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,955
India
The deal was meant to happen by 2019. What's this madness?🤔

MRFA in 2019? Nope. MRFA was expected to begin around that time, basically after the new DAP was published.

An alternative was to just sign a production contract for 90 jets as GTG, but that was shelved 'cause of the need for a tender. Another one was a follow-on of 36 more, but that was shelved too.

Basically, MRFA or bust.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,955
India
Final assembly is offered to Japan , Italy etc. If there was any intention to do it, they would have offered it.

We won't be treated the same. It's about sovereignty. If we give it up, then them giving us the F-35 is easy peasy. Both Japan and Italy have given up some of their sovereignty in exchange for living under the American security umbrella, we don't plan on doing that.

In any case, the IAF has asked for proven 4.5th gen jets that are operational, plus ToT. The F-35 doesn't qualify. If we do indeed go for it, it's not gonna be through a tender, or in large numbers, so it's not really America's fault either.

Rather we can say that once the MRFA shortlist is done, without the F-16 or SH in it, the F-35 would have reached the point where it can be offered, and they may do just that in order to derail the MRFA. And you will also see a vociferous media campaign in favour of the "amazing" F-35 deal, alongside calls of corruption within MRFA. Which is one of the reasons why I believe we should start a Su-57 vs NGAD/F-35 requirement as soon as the shortlist is made in order to shift foreign attention away from MRFA.

GoI has made a conscious decision to become completely independent across the board, not just in military production. This is a make or break decade for India. And the F-35 won't help make our future.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,670
1,586
India
We won't be treated the same. It's about sovereignty. If we give it up, then them giving us the F-35 is easy peasy. Both Japan and Italy have given up some of their sovereignty in exchange for living under the American security umbrella, we don't plan on doing that.

In any case, the IAF has asked for proven 4.5th gen jets that are operational, plus ToT. The F-35 doesn't qualify. If we do indeed go for it, it's not gonna be through a tender, or in large numbers, so it's not really America's fault either.

Rather we can say that once the MRFA shortlist is done, without the F-16 or SH in it, the F-35 would have reached the point where it can be offered, and they may do just that in order to derail the MRFA. And you will also see a vociferous media campaign in favour of the "amazing" F-35 deal, alongside calls of corruption within MRFA. Which is one of the reasons why I believe we should start a Su-57 vs NGAD/F-35 requirement as soon as the shortlist is made in order to shift foreign attention away from MRFA.

GoI has made a conscious decision to become completely independent across the board, not just in military production. This is a make or break decade for India. And the F-35 won't help make our future.
Yeah around the signature of Rafale deal, they were making noises F35 cost less around 80 million $ a pop.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,955
India
Yeah around the signature of Rafale deal, they were making noises F35 cost less around 80 million $ a pop.

The pressure on us will be even greater this time round. Even more so if the IN ends up going for the SH.

Unlike the French, where we have leverage over them, the Americans have leverage over us.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,612
1,025
Delhi
The pressure on us will be even greater this time round. Even more so if the IN ends up going for the SH.

Unlike the French, where we have leverage over them, the Americans have leverage over us.
Buying some f-35B's and f-35A's won't be a bad idea. Since the su-57 is now dead for the most part.
Like we can get hands on around 24-36 F35A's for atleast 5 billion $ all things considered. That will be enough to deter the Chinese and Pakistanis. Later we can buy atleast 18-32 f-35 B's for the upcoming lhd's. Our whole naval projection is fixed. Rest can be invested on the indigenous projects.
25 billion on mmrca. 4-5 billion on f-35's till amca matures. Then we upgrade rest of the fleet to 4++ standard then focus on producing as many tejas mk1 and mk 2
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,200
4,016
Bangalore
We won't be treated the same. It's about sovereignty. If we give it up, then them giving us the F-35 is easy peasy. Both Japan and Italy have given up some of their sovereignty in exchange for living under the American security umbrella, we don't plan on doing that.

In any case, the IAF has asked for proven 4.5th gen jets that are operational, plus ToT. The F-35 doesn't qualify. If we do indeed go for it, it's not gonna be through a tender, or in large numbers, so it's not really America's fault either.

Rather we can say that once the MRFA shortlist is done, without the F-16 or SH in it, the F-35 would have reached the point where it can be offered, and they may do just that in order to derail the MRFA. And you will also see a vociferous media campaign in favour of the "amazing" F-35 deal, alongside calls of corruption within MRFA. Which is one of the reasons why I believe we should start a Su-57 vs NGAD/F-35 requirement as soon as the shortlist is made in order to shift foreign attention away from MRFA.

GoI has made a conscious decision to become completely independent across the board, not just in military production. This is a make or break decade for India. And the F-35 won't help make our future.
Partially agree to the points made
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,670
1,586
India
Buying some f-35B's and f-35A's won't be a bad idea. Since the su-57 is now dead for the most part.
Like we can get hands on around 24-36 F35A's for atleast 5 billion $ all things considered. That will be enough to deter the Chinese and Pakistanis. Later we can buy atleast 18-32 f-35 B's for the upcoming lhd's. Our whole naval projection is fixed. Rest can be invested on the indigenous projects.
25 billion on mmrca. 4-5 billion on f-35's till amca matures. Then we upgrade rest of the fleet to 4++ standard then focus on producing as many tejas mk1 and mk 2

It will be either MRFA Or F35
F35 will be product alone, nothing for our industry or Help in indigenous products.
Or sovereignty in the platform.

MRFA is thought to address those.
If mrfa not giving those, we better stick to Mk2 & Amca. Small Rafale batch bought already will gaurd until mk2, tedbf & amca comes online.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,955
India
Buying some f-35B's and f-35A's won't be a bad idea. Since the su-57 is now dead for the most part.
Like we can get hands on around 24-36 F35A's for atleast 5 billion $ all things considered. That will be enough to deter the Chinese and Pakistanis. Later we can buy atleast 18-32 f-35 B's for the upcoming lhd's. Our whole naval projection is fixed. Rest can be invested on the indigenous projects.
25 billion on mmrca. 4-5 billion on f-35's till amca matures. Then we upgrade rest of the fleet to 4++ standard then focus on producing as many tejas mk1 and mk 2

Only a competition will tell us which is better. Regardless of whether the F-35 is good enough or not, the Su-57 is bound to be better than the J-20, so it should meet our requirements.

But we don't have to buy either. The idea is to waste time on this competition just so it distracts the media away from MRFA.

F-35Bs are unrealistic at this time. The IN is focused on the carrier.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
14,983
10,955
India
It will be either MRFA Or F35

No relation. Three different fighter jet requirements. They don't clash. After a point, not even a financial clash, which used to plague us in the older days.

AMCA or F-35/Su-57/NGAD/FCAS/Tempest... Depends on the status of AMCA.