MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 171 77.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 6 2.7%

  • Total voters
    220

Bon Plan

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Dec 1, 2017
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New Delhi: As India looks to acquire 114 new medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to shore up its depleting strength, Swedish defence major SAAB has pitched for a complete Transfer of Technology (TOT) and local production of its Gripen fighter jet at “half” the cost of French alternative Rafale.

SAAB India’s chairman and managing director (CMD) Ola Rignell made the cost claims in an interview to ThePrint, but added that he wouldn’t be surprised if India went in for additional 36 Rafale fighters in the coming years, circumventing the ongoing process to acquire new jets in larger numbers.

“India bought 36 Rafale fighter jets from France off the shelf. SAAB and Brazil also signed a contract in 2015 for the sale and local manufacturing of 36 Gripen. The cost was half of what the value of the Indian deal was,” said Rignell, referring to Brazil’s $4.68 billion deal with SAAB to manufacture the Gripen locally.

“We are setting up an entire aviation ecosystem in Brazil. And the experience and knowledge that Brazil is gaining from this manufacturing is being used by them to design their indigenous fighter aircraft,” the SAAB India CMD said.

In 2012, EADS’s Eurofighter and Dassault Aviation’s Rafale had emerged as the winner of the 2007 MMRCA bid, with the latter being the lowest bidder. But the contract negotiations got stuck over prices. Three years later, the Modi government cancelled the protracted talks and decided to buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition in a €7.87 billion deal.

Now, France is offering another 36 Rafale fighter jets in a government-to-government deal. But these numbers will not suffice in view of the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s MMRCA requirements.

During the interview last week, Rignell spoke about what the company is offering to India, his expectations, and the issue surrounding its sales to Pakistan.

‘Gripen cheaper than Rafale’
Speaking to ThePrint, Ola Rignell highlighted the efficiency of SAAB’s single-engine multirole fighter aircraft vis-à-vis the Rafale, which is being called a game changer for the IAF in the region due to its weapons package.

Gripen has the same weapons package as Rafale including the Meteor air-to-air missile, said Rignell.

“All NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organisation) missiles are integrated with the Gripen. The only one which is missing is SCALP because it is a French missile. But if India wants, we can integrate the SCALP also though Gripen already has a substitute,” said Rignell.

He pointed out that European missile manufacturer MBDA, which makes both Meteor and SCALP, actually found Gripen as the most mature jet to test their missiles on.

“MBDA ‘test beded’ the Meteor on a Gripen. They found the Gripen to be the most mature. Eighty per cent of Meteor firing tests took place from a Gripen,” he said.

Rignell added that Gripen will always be cheaper in comparison to Rafale in life cycle costs as well because of its single-engine build.

‘Would not be surprised’
SAAB’s India chief said the defence major is offering the best deal to the country, but he won’t be surprised if India opted to buy another 36 Rafale jet from France.

“I would not be surprised,” said Ola Rignell. But he noted that the additional 36 jets will not fulfill the IAF’s requirement.


“The original 36 Rafale was bought when the IAF needed 126 MMRCA. Now there is an RFI (Request for Information) for 114 aircraft. Additional 36 Rafale would still not fulfill what the IAF actually not just wants but needs,” he said.

India and France have already spoken about the latter’s proposal for 36 additional Rafale jets, but New Delhi hasn’t disclosed any information about such a move.

No fresh deal with Pakistan
While Saab is offering the Gripen fighters to India, it is also providing the early warning aircraft system to Pakistan — an issue that has upset the IAF.

Pakistan used the SAAB-manufactured early warning aircraft system to coordinate its attack on an Indian military installation in Jammu and Kashmir a day after the Balakot strike earlier in February.

During his visit to Sweden in June this year, Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa had expressed his displeasure with the defence major for supplying Pakistan with early warning systems and also offering Gripen fighters to India.

New Delhi is of the view that it will be difficult to do business with a country that also arms the enemy.

In a bid to pacify the IAF, Ola Rignell persisted that SAAB is not selling any new products to Pakistan.

He also pointed out that every contender has dealt with Pakistan, and other assets were also used in the post-Balakot action.

Pakistan had used French fighters Mirage as well American F-16s.

However, Rignell remained non-committal on future sales to Pakistan, saying the Swedish government decides on such matters and not the company.

“As far as I know, we are not selling any new products to that country (Pakistan). There is an old order and we are fulfilling our contract obligation,” Rignell said.

The Pakistan Air Force had ordered three new SAAB 2000 early warning aircraft in 2017 to supplement the ones that were destroyed in a terror attack on Minhas air base five years before that.

Rignell added that he was part of the meeting in Sweden when Dhanoa raised the issue and this is exactly what he had told him as well.

“We are trying to sell the latest AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) — Golden Eye — to India. We have sold them to UAE. (But) India is already working on its indigenous systems,” he said.

India operates the IL76 ‘Phalcon’ AWACS as well as the Embraer ‘Netra’ early warning aircraft.
Half the price for half the capacity....
Half the price without any indian specific development.
Half the price for a non mature plane.
 

Bon Plan

Senior member
Dec 1, 2017
2,404
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France
Quite frankly, 10 yrs ago the objections were to the price tag. Moreover there's no clarification on what the UAE's reservations were on the technical front then & what caused the UAE to be satisfied with the Rafale today. Besides, 10 yrs ago there was no inkling on when the F-35 would come into service leave aside whether they would be offered to the US's gulf allies like the UAE.

In a way, barring Peru & Taiwan, Dassault has been able to retain the entire customer base it sold the Mirage - 2000 too with Croatia as a bonus customer .
The price because UAE needed in 2010 a more powerfull engine (no more needed now... they have all the time to show the perf of the bird in hot weather) and wanted a new boosted Radar because the one showed at that time was built with average quality US T/R modules (versus european ones. The operational RBE2 AESA radar performs better than the F16-60 one).

We also can add a personnal problem between the then Dassaut CEO (Charles Edelstenne) and MBZ. According to some it was about a woman.... it's unclear but a persistent rumor.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
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Pour le ministère des Armées, une version du Rafale F4 dédiée à la guerre électronique « n’apparaît pas nécessaire »

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

For the Ministry of the Army, a version of the Rafale F4 dedicated to electronic warfare "does not appear necessary".


While "high-intensity" engagement is now regularly mentioned by military leaders, and the capabilities of interdiction and denial of access [A2/AD], relying in particular on constantly evolving air defense assets, the question of developing a version of the Rafale F4 dedicated to electronic warfare may arise. In any case, in June 2021, Deputy Jean-Christophe Lagarde questioned the Ministry of the Armed Forces in writing on this subject.

"Admittedly, the Rafale has a certain degree of stealth and a self-protection system called 'SPECTRA' [Système de protection et d'évitement des conduites de tir du Rafale, editor's note] that is reputed to be effective against enemy radars and missiles, but it does not have, strictly speaking the ability to neutralize advanced enemy anti-aircraft defenses by jamming their search and fire radars and eliminating them with anti-radiation munitions, as some aircraft [such as the American EA-18G Growler] can do," the parliamentarian recalled.

And he asked whether, "given the acceleration of global rearmament and the increasing risk of high-intensity conflicts," the government was considering "rapidly developing an electronic warfare Rafale, which the French Air Force [AAE] needs and which could certainly be a success in export markets.

Mr. Lagarde's question also echoed a wish expressed by the AAE in a forward-looking document published in 2019. It was a question of "having weapons capable of neutralizing enemy air defences as quickly as possible". Clearly, it was a question of recovering a capability lost at the end of the 1990s, when it was decided to withdraw the AS-37 Martel anti-radar missiles from service.

The answer to Mr Lagarde's written question was published in the Journal Officiel on 28 December. And, not surprisingly, the development of a Rafale F4 dedicated to electronic warfare is not envisaged.

Recalling that "preparing armies for high-intensity conflicts is a major objective of the military programming law" [LPM], the Ministry of the Armed Forces emphasized that the Rafale F4 standard "emphasizes connectivity and networking of our various capabilities," which will make it possible to "maintain our ability to be the first to enter the field and to deal with high-spectrum threats" for years to come.

In addition, he continued, "modernized munitions" to "better take into account the needs of combating denial of access and area denial devices" should be available by 2030″ and there are also plans to continue improving the Rafale's self-protection system.

Also, "in this context, the development of a Rafale version 'dedicated' to electronic warfare does not appear necessary to ensure the maintenance of our operational superiority," the Ministry of the Armed Forces believes.

Moreover, it invites us to "take into account the evolution of adversary defense systems, which are increasingly interconnected, fully integrated, redundant and much more robust", which "leads to a new approach to this type of defense, characterized by the need to be able to apply diversified and synchronized effects on its various components [command and control centers, communications, networks, radars, ground-air systems...] to degrade its functioning.

Thus, in a high-intensity conflict, the Ministry of the Armed Forces explains, "the suppression of adversary anti-aircraft defences is considered through a joint and multi-milieu approach, in order to be able to take advantage of a wide range of complementary capabilities.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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India
Moreover, it invites us to "take into account the evolution of adversary defense systems, which are increasingly interconnected, fully integrated, redundant and much more robust", which "leads to a new approach to this type of defense, characterized by the need to be able to apply diversified and synchronized effects on its various components [command and control centers, communications, networks, radars, ground-air systems...] to degrade its functioning.

Thus, in a high-intensity conflict, the Ministry of the Armed Forces explains, "the suppression of adversary anti-aircraft defences is considered through a joint and multi-milieu approach, in order to be able to take advantage of a wide range of complementary capabilities.

Pretty much the reason why just firing off ARMs from Su-30 won't really do much.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Nov 30, 2017
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https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air-platforms/latest/indonesia-awaits-contract-activation-for-rafale-multirole-fighters

Indonesia awaits ‘contract activation' for Rafale multirole fighters

25 JANUARY 2022

by Ridzwan Rahmat


The Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) has moved ahead with a plan to procure Rafale multirole fighter aircraft from Dassault Aviation.
In his response to questions at the MoD's annual leaders' rally for 2022 on 20 January, Indonesian Minister of Defense Prabowo Subianto told reporters that negotiations for the programme have been completed, and that the “contract” is now “awaiting activation”. He did not provide further details.

However, in response to queries, Janes was informed on 25 January by a source close to the Indonesian MoD that a preamble contract worth EUR 5.8 billion (USD6.56 billion) was signed with Dassault Aviation on 7 June 2021.

The contract, which stipulates a delivery of 36 airframes to the Indonesian Air Force, is not yet active given the lack of clarity over funding. Janes also understands that Indonesia is in the process of seeking a foreign lender to fund this programme.