MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 28 12.7%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 171 77.7%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.4%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.7%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 11 5.0%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 6 2.7%

  • Total voters
    220

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,577
11,326
India
The wingspan of the Rafale is 10.9m with its MICA missiles and only 10.21m without them. Removing its external pylons gives a further 60cm and tilting it as shown in the picture gives a gain in wingspan and length.

Rafale2.jpg



enverg10.jpg

Yeah. But what about safety clearance? You expect the airmen to accurately manage to fit the Rafale on the lift every single time down to cm accuracy? And what about when the ship is rocking and rolling at higher sea states? Will the Rafale only be a good weather jet? This is not a workable solution from the very beginning.

But the most important question, what about Vikramaditya? You do realise you have to prove it on both carriers, right?
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,255
12,180
New Delhi
It takes care of a pretty big problem. Let's not forget all that extra electrical power too.

What I am more interested in is the possibility of operating drones that the US is working on for their carriers. While the SH isn't a direct competitor to the Rafale, the drones could more than make up the difference. They generally take the lead over others when it comes to introducing something new, so they could introduce more advanced drones before the French can. And the TEDBF could also benefit from that.
Another advantage is that SH and P-8s are very well tuned with eachother. Even the new drones being developed are mated with SH.
No Penalty for SH from STOBAR? big big doubt... or the deck is not the one of a IN carrier.
The new engines have 116Kn thrust compared to 98KN thrust of previous version of SH.
Wasn't the engine upgrade had some issues in F18 and were suspended?
The engine has no issues. Infect they are good to go for 128KN. The SH intakes from the very begining were designed for 84kg/sec airflow and 116KN thrust reaches that kind of airflow requirements. To go for 128KN, the SH intakes will need to be enlarged.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sathya and AbRaj

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,832
4,444
74
France
Yeah. But what about safety clearance? You expect the airmen to accurately manage to fit the Rafale on the lift every single time down to cm accuracy? And what about when the ship is rocking and rolling at higher sea states? Will the Rafale only be a good weather jet? This is not a workable solution from the very beginning.

But the most important question, what about Vikramaditya? You do realise you have to prove it on both carriers, right?
10.21 - 0.6 = 9.6
The tilt of the Rafale allows to gain about 60 cm which gives 9 m
And if you want you can remove the end pylons completely and open point 3 under the wing to replace them. There will be 11 points left to carry loads, which is sufficient for a STOBAR aircraft.

It will be demonstrated in India that without modifications, the Rafale has no load penalty on a STOBAR. Its lift is very high (two and a half times that of the F-18 SH) which allows it to fly at low speed. The penalties that France imposes are operational and not technical. A Rafale could take off at 24.5 t from the CDG, which has a catapult that can launch aircraft up to 25 t.

F-18 Has a width of 9.32 with wing folded
 
Last edited:

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,832
4,444
74
France
Yeah. But what about safety clearance? You expect the airmen to accurately manage to fit the Rafale on the lift every single time down to cm accuracy? And what about when the ship is rocking and rolling at higher sea states? Will the Rafale only be a good weather jet? This is not a workable solution from the very beginning.

But the most important question, what about Vikramaditya? You do realise you have to prove it on both carriers, right?
It is sufficient to attach devices to the lift platform of the Vikramaditya to wedge the wheels of the Rafale. It is not expensive and it saves time in finding the right position for the Rafale. We can even offer them to you for free!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Bon Plan

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,832
4,444
74
France
This morning's article in the Italian magazine SMART

"How Macron will promote the Dassault Rafale in the Middle East

by Giuseppe Gagliano

French President Macron is seeking to promote the sale of Dassault Rafale aircraft to the United Arab Emirates. Giuseppe Gagliano's in-depth study



The diplomatic team at the Elysée Palace is currently focusing on preparations for Emmanuel Macron's new Middle East tour of his presidential five-year term, which is expected to take him to Abu Dhabi and Riyadh, with a possible stopover in Beirut. The trip is scheduled to follow his trip to Ukraine. According to several sources, the French leader could be a guest star at the Dubai Air Show (DAS), which will be held from 14 to 18 November in the United Arab Emirates. He is also expected to meet Crown Prince Mohamed bin Zayed al-Nahyan (MbZ).

INTERVENING IN THE AMERICAN-EMIRATI COLD WAR

For Paris, it is a question of proving everything: the CEO of Dassault Eric Trappier and the Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean-Yves Le Drian are already working on the Rafale affair, currently blocked in the country. In the quarrel between Abu Dhabi and Washington, the strategists of the Elysée and the Quai d'Orsay see an opportunity to get this agreement through. For the Emirati leaders, the revival of the Rafale campaign could allow them to raise the bar with Washington.

For months, the White House has been trying to use the deal to sell F-35 aircraft, valued at $23 billion, as a bargaining chip. The US would like to see the strategic negotiations between Beijing and Abu Dhabi dropped. However, the UAE does not seem to be worried about this decision, as projects between the UAE and Chinese strategic groups continue.

Dassault has been dreaming of a Rafale deal in the UAE for more than 12 years. Since then, the group has joined Abu Dhabi's new industrial needs. Alongside Airbus Group, Lockheed Martin and Thales, Dassault now has a partnership with Global Aerospace Logistics (GAL), the company dedicated to aeronautical maintenance and now part of the semi-public conglomerate EDGE Group, in charge of the defence industry. Since April 2020, GAL has been headed by former Emirati army officer Mohamed al-Khemairiri. He is supported by the group's consultant Rodrigo Torres, former vice-president of Renault and also financial director of EDGE.

At the same time, Dassault is hoping for a new Rafale order from India. Emmanuel Bonne, Emmanuel Macron's diplomatic adviser, is particularly interested in this Indian deal. While Air Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari, the new head of the Indian Air Force (IAF), has not openly declared the Rafale multi-role fighter as the designated candidate for the new 114 multi-role fighter programme, he has confirmed that he is not looking to bring in a new type of fighter aircraft from his air force. He made the announcement at his first press conference in New Delhi on 5 October.

Senior IAF officials have now admitted that the Indian defence ministry was in favour of buying 36 more Rafale fighters under an inter-governmental agreement (G2G) with France. Chaudhari has reportedly already advised Defence Minister Rajnath Singh to support the deal, provided that Dassault is prepared to transfer nearly 100% of the design and manufacturing technology to India.

To meet this industrial challenge, the government is considering a new approach. This would involve building 114 multipurpose fighters through a consortium based on a public-private partnership, in which the foreign technology partner would also have a stake. However, nothing is decided yet.

The new IAF chief wants the next Rafales to meet the 2024 F4 standard. The current IAF fighters are of the F3R standard, with features that meet Indian requirements. While the cost to India would be higher for the F4, it would pave the way for the introduction of fifth-generation technologies in the country.

INFLUENCE ON THE GROUND

To back up its bid, Dassault is relying on a number of retired IAF generals and former diplomats turned consultants, as well as its Indian partner Reliance Industries, whose promoter Anil Ambani has very close ties with Prime Minister Narendra Modi. - A corporate diplomacy group based at India Foundation, headed by Shaurya Doval, son of National Security Advisor Ajit Doval. The board members of the India Foundation are influential politicians from the ruling BJP, including Ram Madhav, Vinay Sahasrabuddhe, Swapan Dasgupta, Jayant Sinha and Jay Panda. They are also influential board members of retired diplomats, including Amar Sinha and Preeti Saran.

The IAF's first survey (RFI) for 114 multipurpose fighters was sent to global OEMs in June 2018. US OEMs Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Dassault in France, SAAB in Sweden, Airbus Group in Europe, MiG in Russia and Sukhoi all showed interest at the time. However, for the time being, no definitive timetable has been set. "

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Bon Plan

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,577
11,326
India
10.21 - 0.6 = 9.6
The tilt of the Rafale allows to gain about 60 cm which gives 9 m
And if you want you can remove the end pylons completely and open point 3 under the wing to replace them. There will be 11 points left to carry loads, which is sufficient for a STOBAR aircraft.

It will be demonstrated in India that without modifications, the Rafale has no load penalty on a STOBAR. Its lift is very high (two and a half times that of the F-18 SH) which allows it to fly at low speed. The penalties that France imposes are operational and not technical. A Rafale could take off at 24.5 t from the CDG, which has a catapult that can launch aircraft up to 25 t.

F-18 Has a width of 9.32 with wing folded

No clue how the width has decreased from 10.8 to 10.2. And 10cm is not enough clearance. Whatever the case, we will know once they test it in India. I don't have issues with other areas as long as the Rafale can fit in both lifts.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,832
4,444
74
France
No clue how the width has decreased from 10.8 to 10.2. And 10cm is not enough clearance. Whatever the case, we will know once they test it in India. I don't have issues with other areas as long as the Rafale can fit in both lifts.
The wingspan of the Rafale that is commonly quoted includes the MICA missiles, which is not relevant for judging its suitability for a lift
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,577
11,326
India
The wingspan of the Rafale that is commonly quoted includes the MICA missiles, which is not relevant for judging its suitability for a lift

Yeah, so it overall looks less and less suitable for the purpose.

10.21m wingspan for a 10m lift and a 9.7m lift. Then the crew will have to do all sorts of gymnastics to fit the aircraft in, I bet it's not going to match any realistic operational time frame to achieve it. And then the crew has to waste a lot of time installing and uninstalling the wingtip pylons and the MICA shuttling the aircraft between the hangar and the deck during a high intensity combat when high turnaround times are expected.

During combat, the hangar will become useless, all of the work will have to be carried out on the deck, so the carrier ends up working with only half its capacity with the Rafale.

Your technique is fine for situations where the jet needs to fly a few sorties on a carrier for development work for a future carrier. It's totally unrealistic for combat situations. If this is Dassault's alternative, then it's doomed to fail. So it's folding wings or bust.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,832
4,444
74
France
Yeah, so it overall looks less and less suitable for the purpose.

10.21m wingspan for a 10m lift and a 9.7m lift. Then the crew will have to do all sorts of gymnastics to fit the aircraft in, I bet it's not going to match any realistic operational time frame to achieve it. And then the crew has to waste a lot of time installing and uninstalling the wingtip pylons and the MICA shuttling the aircraft between the hangar and the deck during a high intensity combat when high turnaround times are expected.

During combat, the hangar will become useless, all of the work will have to be carried out on the deck, so the carrier ends up working with only half its capacity with the Rafale.

Your technique is fine for situations where the jet needs to fly a few sorties on a carrier for development work for a future carrier. It's totally unrealistic for combat situations. If this is Dassault's alternative, then it's doomed to fail. So it's folding wings or bust.
Did you read this?
10.21 - 0.6 = 9.6
The tilt of the Rafale allows to gain about 60 cm which gives 9 m
And if you want you can remove the end pylons completely and open point 3 under the wing to replace them. There will be 11 points left to carry loads, which is sufficient for a STOBAR aircraft.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,778
1,662
India
Another advantage is that SH and P-8s are very well tuned with eachother. Even the new drones being developed are mated with SH.

The new engines have 116Kn thrust compared to 98KN thrust of previous version of SH.

The engine has no issues. Infect they are good to go for 128KN. The SH intakes from the very begining were designed for 84kg/sec airflow and 116KN thrust reaches that kind of airflow requirements. To go for 128KN, the SH intakes will need to be enlarged.

Sorry i forgot, the issue is with conformal fuel tanks...
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,255
12,180
New Delhi
It will be demonstrated in India that without modifications, the Rafale has no load penalty on a STOBAR. Its lift is very high (two and a half times that of the F-18 SH) which allows it to fly at low speed.
Impossible. You can never compare a 20*SB wing with LERX with a 48*SB wing with Canards. The lifting capability of SH is far superior to Rafale. We are comparing 45.7 sqm wing of a 24.5t aircraft with 46.5 sqm wing of a 30t aircraft. Wing loading is a function of CL and if CL is high, a smaller wing can have far higher wingloading. CL is also dependent on SB angle. Canards is not the spinach of Popeye which will give out of the world lifting capability to rafale. You probably forgot that SH is negatively stable and so its tail provides lift. The SH compared to C/D varients is 25% bigger and yet has a landing speed 10kts lower than C/D variants.

I dont think that Indian Govt trusts USA fully
Even I don't.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,832
4,444
74
France
Impossible. You can never compare a 20*SB wing with LERX with a 48*SB wing with Canards. The lifting capability of SH is far superior to Rafale. We are comparing 45.7 sqm wing of a 24.5t aircraft with 46.5 sqm wing of a 30t aircraft. Wing loading is a function of CL and if CL is high, a smaller wing can have far higher wingloading. CL is also dependent on SB angle. Canards is not the spinach of Popeye which will give out of the world lifting capability to rafale. You probably forgot that SH is negatively stable and so its tail provides lift. The SH compared to C/D varients is 25% bigger and yet has a landing speed 10kts lower than C/D variants.


Even I don't.

No need to increase CL max!
I went to Jean Claude Hironde's (the father of Rafale) conference in Toulouse and he reported that the French and the US were competing on a US aircraft carrier (the Theodore Roosevelt) to see which of the Rafale or the F18 SH could carry the heaviest load and the Rafale carried a ton more. Which according to Hironde is huge.

They also did a few dog fights, it was so catastrophic for the F18, that they called back some very experienced pilots, same result! They were fooled in less than 30 seconds. The Rafale shoots 1.3 - 2 CL and the other one shoots only 1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: randomradio

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,255
12,180
New Delhi
The biggest problem with SH is its long nose which restricts its approach alpha to just 8.1* and also its launch Alpha from CATOBAR. Even in Low speed combat it suffers from poor forward visibility due to its long nose which houses its main gun. In a knife fight at low speeds, alpha and visibility is crucial especially when you go into scissors fight, either horizontal or vertical. But in case of launch from STOBAR, you do not have problems of alpha and visibility as you go off a ramp. Do you know that SH sinks 10ft below deck even after best CAT launch. Why does it happen? It happens because the cushion of air under the wings suddenly disappears when the aircraft leaves the deck in a flat trajectory. In a STOBAR the aircraft leaves the deck in an upward trajectory so the sudden loss of greound effect lift does not cause the aircraft to loose lift. It adds to the lift of the aircraft due to launch angle and provides a subdued thrust vectoring as the component of thrust adds to the lift as a function of VxTxsintheta. Theta being the body angle of the aircraft during launch.
A fighter pilot must know his machine very well and should avoid going into regimes where he may get exposed. I had seen the much touted video of Rafale getting a lock on F-22. I dissected it for you. Winning a combat against an Idiot is easy but against seasoned guys, its very difficult. IAF ran circles around USAF in cope 2004 with Mig-21s. And who can doubt that a Mig-21 Bison shot down a F-16. Machine itself maybe outstanding but what matters is the man behind machine. Even in 1965 war we had a far inferior French aircraft fighting off F-86 Sabres piloted by Indians and shooting down couple of them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: randomradio

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,577
11,326
India
Did you read this?

If I understood it correctly, it should be 10.8-.6 = 10.2. And then a further 0.6 reduction due to gymnastics, which is likely possble only if someone picks up the jet and drops it in the lift from above, and not pushed inside the lift in a weird angle. The rear wheels cannot steer, so the jet has to go in straight.
 
Last edited:

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,577
11,326
India
Sir if we buy F 18 , we will have to
Face a lot of other irritating and unpleasant situations like Constant interference in internal affairs

I dont think that Indian Govt trusts USA fully

It depends on the size of the order. 200 jets will give them control. But with only 36 jets, we actually have the advantage since the fleet becomes replaceable.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,778
1,662
India
It depends on the size of the order. 200 jets will give them control. But with only 36 jets, we actually have the advantage since the fleet becomes replaceable.

Why would we need F18, when tedbf can come online in 203x ?

F414 enhanced version is not going into USN orders , 100 F18 in 4 years.
Maybe it ll take time.

Are we going to lease F18?