MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 11.9%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 158 78.6%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.5%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    201

Picdelamirand-oil

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During the presentation of the trilateral exercises American officers recognize the value of the French approach and active stealth.

2:12:26 De passer à un troisième topic là vous avez la technologie
Je viens d'un environnement furtif. Vous avez donc la furtivité passive et la furtivité active. Nous, les Américains, avons beaucoup investi dans la furtivité passive, pendant des années, en commençant par le SR-71, puis le F-117, le B-2, le F-35, le F-22... mais je pense que c'était une erreur car nous avons oublié la guerre électronique, alors que la France s'y est obstinée. C'est l'un de vos principaux atouts. Vous êtes devenus presque des maîtres dans cette technologie. Nous, les Américains, devons y revenir. Vous savez aussi que les matériaux ont leur importance, et je suppose que nous le verrons sur le SCAF. Nous devons continuer à avancer, et garder notre capacité d'adaptation. Je veux insister sur le fait que la furtivité (passive et active) est importante, et doit être bien intégrée pour être efficace".
Translation
2:12:26
Moving on to a third topic there you have the technology
I'm coming from a stealth environment. So you have the passive stealth and active stealth. We Americans invested a lot into passive stealth, for years, beginning wit the SR-71 then F-117, B-2, F-35, F-22… but I think it was a mistake because we forgot electronic warfare, when you France persisted into it. It's one of your key asset. You became almost masters in this technology. We Americans needs to come back into it. You also know that materials have their importance, and I assume we will see it on the SCAF. We need keep moving, and to keep our ability to adapt. I want to insist on the fact that both (passive and active) stealth are important, and need to be well integrated to be effective.
 

randomradio

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India
During the presentation of the trilateral exercises American officers recognize the value of the French approach and active stealth.


Translation
2:12:26
Moving on to a third topic there you have the technology
I'm coming from a stealth environment. So you have the passive stealth and active stealth. We Americans invested a lot into passive stealth, for years, beginning wit the SR-71 then F-117, B-2, F-35, F-22… but I think it was a mistake because we forgot electronic warfare, when you France persisted into it. It's one of your key asset. You became almost masters in this technology. We Americans needs to come back into it. You also know that materials have their importance, and I assume we will see it on the SCAF. We need keep moving, and to keep our ability to adapt. I want to insist on the fact that both (passive and active) stealth are important, and need to be well integrated to be effective.

While it was fine on the bombers, they screwed up by not putting it into tactical fighters.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Picdelamirand-oil

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Dassault Hands Over First Rafale to Greece

Dassault Aviation has handed over the first of an initial six Rafale multi-role fighters to the Hellenic Air Force (HAF). The July 21 ceremony took place at the company’s flight test center at Istres. Dassault’s chairman and CEO, Eric Trappier, hosted the event, which was attended by Nikolaos Panagiotopoulos, Greece’s Minister of National Defence.

The Rafale procurement wasn't finalized until late January, but Athens sought early delivery due to pressing defense needs. As a result, 12 of the 18 aircraft on order are being drawn from Armée de l’Air et de l’Espace (AAE) stocks. France subsequently added a top-up batch of a dozen Rafales for the AAE to its own orders.



"Following the Mirage F1 in 1974, the Mirage 2000 in 1985, and the Mirage 2000-5 in 2000, the Rafale is now proudly flying with Hellenic Air Force colors,” said Trappier during the ceremony. “The Rafale is a strategic game-changer for the HAF. It will play an active role by securing Greece's leadership as a major regional power.” He added that he “would like to reaffirm our total commitment to the success of the Rafale in Greece.”

The first batch of six former French aircraft will initially operate with the Dassault Conversion Training Center at Mérignac in the outskirts of Bordeaux. The airfield serves as the city’s main airport and is also the site of the Rafale final assembly facility. A group of HAF pilots, along with 50 technicians, has been undergoing training in France with the AAE for a few months, and will now transfer to the Mérignac location to complete their conversion training.

When ready, the aircraft and personnel will relocate to their intended home base at Tanagra, some 35 miles northeast of Athens. By the time deliveries of the aircraft—including six new-build ones—are complete, the Rafales will have replaced the HAF’s remaining Mirage 2000BG/EGs that have not been upgraded to 2000-5 standard. Final delivery is expected in 2023.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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India

Dassault Hands Over First Rafale to Greece

Dassault Aviation has handed over the first of an initial six Rafale multi-role fighters to the Hellenic Air Force (HAF). The July 21 ceremony took place at the company’s flight test center at Istres. Dassault’s chairman and CEO, Eric Trappier, hosted the event, which was attended by Nikolaos Panagiotopoulos, Greece’s Minister of National Defence.

The Rafale procurement wasn't finalized until late January, but Athens sought early delivery due to pressing defense needs. As a result, 12 of the 18 aircraft on order are being drawn from Armée de l’Air et de l’Espace (AAE) stocks. France subsequently added a top-up batch of a dozen Rafales for the AAE to its own orders.



"Following the Mirage F1 in 1974, the Mirage 2000 in 1985, and the Mirage 2000-5 in 2000, the Rafale is now proudly flying with Hellenic Air Force colors,” said Trappier during the ceremony. “The Rafale is a strategic game-changer for the HAF. It will play an active role by securing Greece's leadership as a major regional power.” He added that he “would like to reaffirm our total commitment to the success of the Rafale in Greece.”

The first batch of six former French aircraft will initially operate with the Dassault Conversion Training Center at Mérignac in the outskirts of Bordeaux. The airfield serves as the city’s main airport and is also the site of the Rafale final assembly facility. A group of HAF pilots, along with 50 technicians, has been undergoing training in France with the AAE for a few months, and will now transfer to the Mérignac location to complete their conversion training.

When ready, the aircraft and personnel will relocate to their intended home base at Tanagra, some 35 miles northeast of Athens. By the time deliveries of the aircraft—including six new-build ones—are complete, the Rafales will have replaced the HAF’s remaining Mirage 2000BG/EGs that have not been upgraded to 2000-5 standard. Final delivery is expected in 2023.

Not bad. Instant air force.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Parsons Wins $953M For USAFE-AFAFRICA |Thales To Provide New Avionics Equipment For Rafale | India Flight Tested MPATGM

Europe​

The French defense procurement agency (DGA) contracted Thales to provide new avionics equipment – 350 Scorpion helmet-mounted sight and display systems and 400 digital multi-function displays- for Dassault Rafale fighter jets. The systems deliver enhanced tactical situational awareness and slave the weapon or mission systems to the pilot’s line of sight to improve the effectiveness of air operations. This new equipment will further enhance the operational effectiveness of the Rafale F4 standard.
 
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RISING SUN

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Dec 3, 2017
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Only if US is ready for scientific dissemination technology transfer along with direct application. Without vertical ToT it's not worth.
TOT is the biggest fraud India has brought to itself. Accept either we are unable to grasp the nitty gritty of TOT or we just too lazy to allow going TOT idle unused. Anyway that's our own doing. I would be more happier if high performing jets are manufactured in India even by foreign OEMs without TOT, I am good with it. Seeing the ineptness of defence industry (particularly PSUs), and their after sales support, I am very much not inclined in favor of them, though it's my personal opinion only.
You should see the kind of machinery is supplied internally for Migs and Jaguar, You will freakin start wishing yourself IAF pilots don't have to fly those jets.
 
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randomradio

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TOT is the biggest fraud India has brought to itself. Accept either we are unable to grasp the nitty gritty of TOT or we just too lazy to allow going TOT idle unused. Anyway that's our own doing. I would be more happier if high performing jets are manufactured in India even by foreign OEMs without TOT, I am good with it. Seeing the ineptness of defence industry (particularly PSUs), and their after sales support, I am very much not inclined in favor of them, though it's my personal opinion only.
You should see the kind of machinery is supplied internally for Migs and Jaguar, You will freakin start wishing yourself IAF pilots don't have to fly those jets.

The expectations from ToT is quite different from reality though. The point of ToT is to help build and then support the product throughout its life, nothing more. People incorrectly assume it's going to help push our own R&D programs forward. In fact I don't even know how people assume this. It's like if Google delivers ToT of their server motherboards to L&T for production, people start assuming Tata is now going to use that ToT to make their own server mobos. Like, what, what? Literally no relation.

As for DPSUs, the less said the better.
 

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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As for DPSUs, the less said the better.
Ask government to change the policies of l1 & other stupid guidelines to issue tenders etc. Psus are dying only because of the government policy.
If u want to buy even a screw( bit exaggeration ) u need to go for 3 vendor tendering, and a buffer time period before opening tender. If participating party is technically qualified, then again retendering, if only ine vendor is shortlisted then again retendering. If contract value is less than a particular amount, u cannot go for international tendering & they need to go for domestic one first, if no participant came they need initiate file to ministry for special waiver, before giving waiver ministry will give queries. So these things takes time.
 

randomradio

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screambowl

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switzerland
I would be more happier if high performing jets are manufactured in India even by foreign OEMs without TOT, I am good with it.

People incorrectly assume it's going to help push our own R&D programs forward. In fact I don't even know how people assume this. It's like if Google delivers ToT of their server motherboards to L&T for production, people start assuming Tata is now going to use that ToT to make their own server mobos. Like, what, what? Literally no relation.

What you guys are talking about is also TOT and deals with 'direct application transfer of technology' it comes under horizontal transfer. For example Indo US nuclear deal.
I would be more happier if high performing jets are manufactured in India even by foreign OEMs without TOT

For that also you need TOT in lean manufacturing.

Tech transfer is no more linear model as most of you think.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Ask government to change the policies of l1 & other stupid guidelines to issue tenders etc. Psus are dying only because of the government policy.
If u want to buy even a screw( bit exaggeration ) u need to go for 3 vendor tendering, and a buffer time period before opening tender. If participating party is technically qualified, then again retendering, if only ine vendor is shortlisted then again retendering. If contract value is less than a particular amount, u cannot go for international tendering & they need to go for domestic one first, if no participant came they need initiate file to ministry for special waiver, before giving waiver ministry will give queries. So these things takes time.

The L1 system is fine. Our system picks out the Tx first and then the L1.

The issue is the nitty-gritty procedures in-between that serve to dull the process which needs overhaul.

They need a better system for single-vendor situations though, which I think the new DPP addresses, so all it needs is an active tender.
 
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Lolwa

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The L1 system is fine. Our system picks out the Tx first and then the L1.

The issue is the nitty-gritty procedures in-between that serve to dull the process which needs overhaul.

They need a better system for single-vendor situations though, which I think the new DPP addresses, so all it needs is an active tender.
The single vendor situation has led to so many delays. And usually the products have been good. Like galil was offered so many times under a single vendor situation and many such deals. Don't.know why we keep quashing rfp's in such cases..
 

randomradio

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The single vendor situation has led to so many delays. And usually the products have been good. Like galil was offered so many times under a single vendor situation and many such deals. Don't.know why we keep quashing rfp's in such cases..

That has been solved with the new DPP.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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In response to posts that were deleted because they were off-topic, @WHOHE had asked me to enlighten him on the mistakes he may have made in criticising the level of availability of French aircraft. So I'll do it here, and I apologise for the repetition regarding the way the French manage the consumption of its fighter aircraft potential.
First of all, you have to understand that availability is not a characteristic of the aircraft, but a characteristic of the aircraft and of the organisation that is put in place to ensure its maintenance.

Indeed, even with an aircraft that does not perform well in this area, you can put a large maintenance team at its disposal and a large stock of spare parts at the foot of the aircraft, and you will have a correct availability. But still, depending on the quality of the aircraft, it is more or less easy to achieve performance in this area.

The problem with the F-35, for example, is that high-level military officials have set availability targets and the US is unable to set up an organisation around the F-35 that will allow it to meet these targets. Because engine repairs take too long and there are not enough spare engines, because engines fail more often than expected, and because ALIS is full of false alarms and non-detections, which immobilises aircraft that are capable of flying and allows aircraft to fly that the maintenance technicians refuse to accept to fly.

In France we don't have these problems with the Rafale. It is an aircraft that is very easy to maintain and the management is done in such a way as to consume the potential of the aircraft in a regular manner. The objective was to consume the potential in 30 years. As the aircraft was given for 7,500 flight hours, that is 250 hours per year, and as the NATO standard for good training is 180 hours per year, that gives us 1.4 pilots per aircraft.

The number of aircraft we buy is determined by the operational need: we estimate the number of flight hours according to the missions to be carried out, and we divide this number by 250 to get the number of aircraft needed. So in addition to the Mirage 2000, the number of flight hours of Rafale that France needs is 152 * 250 = 38000 h per year.

So what happens when an aircraft has reached its allotted 250 flying hours?

The aircraft is simply stored at the Châteaudun base in conditions that prevent it from deteriorating and is declared unavailable. But this is a management unavailability, not a technical unavailability. If a crisis broke out, these planes would become available again overnight. It is because of these management unavailabilities that the overall availability of the Rafale is low.

But there are new elements:
The operational life of 7,500 hours was the result of calculations and tests carried out at the beginning of the programme. But today, the actual conditions encountered by operational aircraft can be taken into account to recalculate the probable service life of the Rafale. And this calculation gives 9000 hours.

We therefore end up with 228,000 additional hours of potential, which corresponds to 30 aircraft with 7,500 hours of potential! This explains why second-hand aircraft are being sold in Greece and Croatia. Indeed, the proposal to Finland shows that it is possible to commit to producing up to 1,000 flight hours per year per aircraft and even, in "surge", up to 350 hours per month. So if we have the potential available, we can easily provide the 38,000 annual hours with fewer aircraft: this will consume more than 250 hours in the year, but this does not matter any more because the total potential available is beyond any expectation.

Moreover, the Greek aircraft sold will be replaced before 2025 and probably the Croatian aircraft after 2025. The increase in potential therefore allows us to manage the transition and to replace aircraft that cannot be upgraded to F4.2 with aircraft that will be released directly in this standard.
 
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