MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 24 11.9%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 158 78.6%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 2.0%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 3.0%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 9 4.5%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 1 0.5%

  • Total voters
    201

A Person

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
807
789
A Place
And it's aerodynamically superior to the SH.
This is more of an indictment of the SH than praise for the F-35... The F-35's aerodynamic formula suffered greatly from having to host an enormous lift fan right behind the cockpit. And yes, this also affects the A and C versions which didn't get to be slimmer than the B version.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AbRaj and Bon Plan

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,552
8,789
India
This is more of an indictment of the SH than praise for the F-35... The F-35's aerodynamic formula suffered greatly from having to host an enormous lift fan right behind the cockpit. And yes, this also affects the A and C versions which didn't get to be slimmer than the B version.

Yeah, these two aircraft are not gonna make heads turn in the air.
 

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,890
889
Mumbai
In terms of sustainment costs, the SH will comfortably beat the F-35 as long as the USN continues to operate the jet. With the new engine, it's apparently even cheaper than the F-16 now in terms of CPFH. But with the USN developing the NGAD in a hurry to counter the PLAN, people are expecting the SH will be phased out much sooner than planned, and in large numbers, beginning in the early 2030s. Only 36 USN SHs are of the latest standards, all others will only receive upgrades. Which means Finland will become the largest operator after a point, not a good position to be in.

The Finns have two requirements, what you stated, and the other main requirement is they need the ability to inflict a 10:1 kill ratio over the Russian AF. It's impossible for the SH to deliver the latter.

Then there's safety, twin engines are simply safer to operate in their icy environment. So that's the only actual operational advantage for the SH over the F-35.

Honestly, Finnish Hornets were delivered between 1995 and 2000. What would make more sense is for them to upgrade whatever they can right now and wait for the USN-NGAD. They can then simply upgrade to that straightaway from 2032 or so onwards and have a more capable fighter jet in the post-2035 world, when Russia would become an actual threat to NATO. It's too late now, but that should have been their main option. The Europeans are underestimating the Russians and will pay for it.
Finland will not achieve 10:1 ratio over Russian airforce, no matter what aircraft they operate, even with f35 or Rafale or even mighty f22.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,552
8,789
India
It's been judged an acceptable cost.



European F-35 operators aren't likely going to be bothered by operating costs associated with the F-35 (given they're comparable to other 4+/4.5 gen fighters) as most are wealthy nations with relatively small defence burdens or costs.

I beg to differ. Higher sustainments costs do not necessarily mean replacement parts cost more, it can also mean parts need more frequent replacements or maintenance which would result in significant downtime for the aircraft. For example, the Mig-29S's sustainment costs being high has nothing to do with the cost of the parts.

The F-35's current CPFH is said to be $44,000. LM wants to get it down to $25,000. That's a 1.76 times difference from the goal, this is definitely not because the parts are simply more expensive, because we know for a fact that the F-35 is getting cheaper to produce. If parts begin burning out quicker than anticipated during peacetime operations, then you can expect serious spares problems and downtimes during wartime. So sustainment costs matter a lot based on what's actually going wrong.

There's also other sorts of critical issues, since sustainments costs have a lot to do with the engine as well. If sustainment costs are high due to problems in the engine, then you know the situation can get a lot worse if the engine has to be flown out of the country to fix problems.
 

Dawg-69

Member
Feb 23, 2021
46
32
Finland
Finland will not achieve 10:1 ratio over Russian airforce, no matter what aircraft they operate, even with f35 or Rafale or even mighty f22.

In WW2 it went like that... good training ;) ;) ;)

Here's some info:

 

Hydra

Well-Known member
May 19, 2020
1,890
889
Mumbai
In WW2 it went like that... good training ;) ;) ;)

Here's some info:

You are fight Russia, not russian airforce alone.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,456
2,878
73
France
transition.wifeo.com
Double French success in Switzerland

7th export victory for the Rafale!

Announcements


The Swiss authorities will reveal tomorrow the winners of the Air 2030 tender aimed at modernising their air defence capabilities. From the beginning of this competition, the Swiss had suggested that the interoperability between the fighter aircraft and the ground/air defence system would be an undeniable plus. While the Rafale was up against the Typhoon, the F/18 and the JSF, the long-range ground/air defence system SAMP/T of the Eurosam JV (Thales, MBDA) was competing with the American Patriot.

The Rafale


According to several industrial sources, Berne will announce tomorrow the 7th export victory of the Rafale, which after winning a tender for the F-16 Block 70/72 in Croatia and Indonesia, has won here over the F-35A and the F-18 E/F. As Greece and Croatia did before it, the Swiss acquisition of the Rafale is as much a political choice as a military one.

The new American strategic posture has indeed given France a leadership role in the European concert, and Bern now finds itself in the imperative need to re-engage with the EU. But France is also the community's leading operational military power. A power that offers the Swiss Confederation and its borders the strategic depth that it lacks, as well as an alliance that can withstand all the hard knocks in the event of terrorist attacks, massive intrusion into its airspace, etc. While Paris was able to reassure Bern in the context of this contract on the chapter of offsets and data protection, the Americans discovered that the Swiss had a stubborn grudge.

After acquiring its 34 F-18s in 1997, the Swiss government had to incur astronomical costs to expand its famous shelters hidden under its mountains because the aircraft's size had been deliberately minimised. In addition, its flight envelope proved to be totally unsuitable for the air policing tasks that are the main focus of Swiss airmen's missions.

But above all, the F-18 and the F-35 have proved to be far too expensive compared to the 6 billion Swiss francs acquisition budget approved by the population in the 27 September vote. The international management of the major French groups has reported that Boeing's aircraft cost more than 15% more than the budget. While Lockheed has been more pragmatic with its F-35 to fit within the budget, the Swiss are more reserved about the reliability of the aircraft, as recent events have shown.

Finally, let us not forget that since the beginning of the 2000s, the US Air Force has remained the owner of the systems of all exported American aircraft, thus creating a dependence that Berne considers unacceptable, insofar as at no time was Switzerland the owner of its data and had to tolerate the presence of sealed equipment on its aircraft.

The SAMP/T

Finally, on Wednesday 23 June, Switzerland will announce the victory of Eurosam's SAMP/T ground/air defence system. The victory in early April of Thales' Skyview system to upgrade the Florako and correlate civil and military air surveillance data was a harbinger of things to come because of its interoperability with the SAMP/T.

While the "black box" issue is also present in the Patriot system, Swiss operational staff also feared that if it were acquired, they would have to rethink their entire air defence system due to a lack of compatibility, and thus incur additional costs. Moreover, the system proposed by the Americans was not the most recent in the range.

The excellent communication campaign of the French Embassy and the French Air Force on the spot, and the image of impotence of the Saudi Patriot following the Houthi drone attacks on the civilian population, precipitated the victory of Eurosam. Eurosam also has the advantage of being a bit French, a bit German, and a bit Italian ... just like Switzerland.
 
  • Like
Reactions: randomradio

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,552
8,789
India
Finally, let us not forget that since the beginning of the 2000s, the US Air Force has remained the owner of the systems of all exported American aircraft, thus creating a dependence that Berne considers unacceptable, insofar as at no time was Switzerland the owner of its data and had to tolerate the presence of sealed equipment on its aircraft.

Interestingly, Finland suffers from the same problem.

At least now we know the SH is more expensive than the Rafale. Which is really impressive since the Block 3's CPFH is lesser than the F-16's. And we now know for sure that the F-35's offered sustainment costs are unreliable.

So the Swiss AF is getting what they have always wanted.

I hope the Swiss release more details. Technical ranks mainly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Picdelamirand-oil

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,456
2,878
73
France
transition.wifeo.com
Interestingly, Finland suffers from the same problem.

At least now we know the SH is more expensive than the Rafale. Which is really impressive since the Block 3's CPFH is lesser than the F-16's. And we now know for sure that the F-35's offered sustainment costs are unreliable.

So the Swiss AF is getting what they have always wanted.

I hope the Swiss release more details. Technical ranks mainly.
For Air et Cosmos this is the 7th export victory for the Rafale: they consider that the sale to Indonesia is already secured. Air et Cosmos is France's reference journal for aeronautical information.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
2,456
2,878
73
France
transition.wifeo.com

A Person

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
807
789
A Place
For Air et Cosmos this is the 7th export victory for the Rafale: they consider that the sale to Indonesia is already secured. Air et Cosmos is France's reference journal for aeronautical information.
A bit too much in a hurry, though. I'd rather they waited for the official announcement. Brazil syndrome, you know?

Against China, 36 Rafales are not enough even if we add 272 SU-30 MKI.
36 Rafales would be enough against what China had in the area. Had, past tense. Their build up gives them the advantage again.
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,552
8,789
India
For Air et Cosmos this is the 7th export victory for the Rafale: they consider that the sale to Indonesia is already secured. Air et Cosmos is France's reference journal for aeronautical information.

The Indonesian 36 is most definitely a done deal. It's an incredible 234 jets on export.

Interestingly, the F-35 sales being considered as export are 293, counting the yet to be ordered 105 Japanese and 40 Korean jets. Or else it would be 148.

But if the Finnish deal goes to the Rafale, then the Rafale will see an export of 298 jets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Picdelamirand-oil

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
11,552
8,789
India
Against China, 36 Rafales are not enough even if we add 272 SU-30 MKI.

It depends on if the Chinese plan on opening other fronts, like the Northeast.

36 Rafales are enough for the Ladakh sector.

For the NE alone, we will need 54+6 jets.

36 Rafales would be enough against what China had in the area. Had, past tense. Their build up gives them the advantage again.

There's nothing special about their buildup. They had nothing before 2020, now they have something. It's all about what they can put up in the air.

There are two major air bases which can match the IAF's fighter tempo, both in Xinjiang. The base in Hotan is in advanced stages of expansion, whereas there is another base planned to the east of Hotan. Both these bases are close to the border. The one in Kashgar is a bit too far for fighter jets, but it's the second major base. So there is a long term potential of three bases, but all three threats are from basically one direction. 36 Rafales are enough for this sector.

All other bases in Tibet are at an altitude of 3500-4000m. These bases are only capable of air policing missions.

In the NE, we will need 2 Rafale bases to counter the Chinese since attacks can come in from 2 directions, the north and the east. It's only here that the Chinese can use their numbers advantage, by flying in from their plain bases further inland. With twice the number of jets, they will be able to match our Flanker sortie rates with their Flankers.

For a collusive threat, at the minimum we need 36 in the north in one base, 54 in the northeast in two bases, and 18 in the center in one base. That's 108 jets, or 6 squadrons.