MMRCA 2.0 - Update and discussion

What is your favorite plane

  • JSF F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 17 13.5%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 98 77.8%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 2 1.6%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 3 2.4%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • SH F-18

    Votes: 6 4.8%

  • Total voters
    126

Bon Plan

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suddenly France doesn't have a long range requirement? But at least you admit that the PESA would be useless with Meteor for fighters. So once again, AESA necessity for Rafale, not for Gripen and EF!
Do you have any evidence than the Gripen C/D radar has a sufficient range to fire a Meteor at full range? NO.

Same than Mirage 2000D with Mica : without a L16 targeting help, it is impossible to use the Mica at full range.

Meteor range is said to be superior to 100Km (some source said "far superior"...). Saying 120km. If the PESA range on a specified target is 100km, than means it can fired it at least at 30 to 40 km more distance than with a Mica... Even better than every AMRAAM available.
 

Bon Plan

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It's only an initial order and will grow with growing numbers of Rafales too. Secondly, MICA NG is primarily aimed at upgraded Mirage 2000, because they will carry up to 6 of them (no Meteor), while Rafale primarily replaces MICA IR. Unless the external station will be used by French forces now, Rafale only carries 2 MICA NG.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
- The french doctrine is, if possible, to positively identify a target before fire => Medium range is favored (Mica NG will have the same range but more speed, and a booster to gain energy for last seconds before impact manoeuvers : same max range but increased NEZ ). That's why there are, for France, only 2 points opened for Meteor on the Rafale fleet. I think Qatar and Indian planes to have 4 points opened.
- Meteor is seen mainly usefull to kill Awacs and tankers in the french air force.
- Meteor is a so great ace that Dassault didn't want to leave Eurofighter to have exclusivity. It's mainly marketing.
 

Bon Plan

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Interesting, but the question was, if the underperforming RBE 2 PESA would had been sufficient for Meteor?
A very recent news : NEZ of METEOR is 60km (when those of AMRAAM C is 20km. 25 to 30km for D thanks to trajectory improvements).
ie a PESA Rafale can fire it against a fighter at more than the NEZ, but not at full range (said to be near 150km).
 

A Person

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The interesting part Sancho, is timeline. AESA was inducted into forces few times before Meteor... Planification.
Don't bother arguing with Sancho, he twists everything to his worldview which is that the Rafale sucks and is a scam. No amount of fact will ever deviate him from that, he'll always interpret things in a way that comfort his preset ideas.

Here we see how "the Rafale has a better radar than its competitors" becomes turned into "the Rafale needed a better radar to compete, because it sucks".

Inversely, that the Meteor is qualified on Gripen and Typhoon means that their outdated radars are just as good as the RBE2-AA. Which is largely like saying that a rotary phone is just as good as a smartphone because both can be used for calls.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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But at least you admit that the PESA would be useless with Meteor for fighters. So once again, AESA necessity for Rafale, not for Gripen and EF!
No, but did I say that? I said that the PESA would be of no use to the Meteor against fighters? If that's true, it's because I had to drink or smoke something very harmful!

More seriously, I will explain the Rafale's employment philosophy as seen by France. But it should not be forgotten that other countries may have a different philosophy and that France will eventually represent only less than half of the Rafale sold since there will be 225 for France against 96 already sold for export to which must be added a potential of 114 + 57 + 36 for India alone.

The Rafale is capable of positive visual identification at distances that I would qualify as intermediate (not of the visual range, nor of the BVR).

In fact, with its MICA-EM/IR and weapon system, the Rafale is optimized for combat in this intermediate zone, which makes it possible to avoid close combat as much as possible. Its entire weapon system, from radar to missiles, is optimized for this, which may explain in part why the HMDS is not a priority.

With the arrival of the Meteor, the Rafale will truly be able to dodge close combat to the maximum. A Typhoon with 4 Meteor and 2 AIM-9X will be able to shoot down up to 4 opponents at very long range, but will have to approach dangerously to fire its last 2 missiles.

A Rafale with 2 Meteor but 4 MICAs can only shoot down 2 opponents at very long distances, but will not have to engage in a dog fight for the last 4. It will be able to fire all its missiles in BVR if it so wishes and if the situation permits.

Moreover, it makes no sense to take into account only the characteristics of the Radar to know how far the combat will be engaged. For example, in a duel between a Typhoon with a Captor M and a Rafale with a PESA there is a high probability that the Rafale detected and locked the Typhoon before it could do so on the Rafale because the RCS of the Rafale is 0.06 M^2 against 0.47 for the Typhoon.
 

Sancho

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The interesting part Sancho, is timeline. AESA was inducted into forces few times before Meteor... Planification.
I know, because the PESA was not good enough, even without Meteor. But other fighters offered better radar performance, which is why they kept using their pulse doppler radars and why they even can use it with Meteor.
 

Sancho

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Was here, sat in the cockpit πŸ˜‹
Hehe, were you one of the 100s of people that got the red cap and then went over to the Rafale display to get the blue cap too? πŸ˜†

P.S. Is it me, or were very little news and info's posted from AI19? πŸ˜•
 

A Person

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Always hilarious to see people with no understanding for facts, crying because they don't have arguments. πŸ˜‚
You don't have actual arguments. FUD is not an argument.

For instance, why do you care so much about alleged performance of the Rafale's PESA radar? It was never proposed to India. So you're here ranting about how if you fit the Rafale with some of its equipment in an older version with less advanced technology, then it's not as good? Well, duh! And if you put a toddler in the cockpit instead of a trained pilot, it also won't be as good! Why do you keep bringing up something irrelevant?
 

Sancho

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For instance, why do you care so much about alleged performance of the Rafale's PESA radar? It was never proposed to India.
Another proof that you are talking about things, that you don't understand! Nobody is talking about India, we are talking about why AESA was introduced early into Rafale and why other radars had better performance than the PESA and their performance wrt Meteor.

Just because you have an "opinion", doesn't mean you have an argument, let alone understand the topic.
 

A Person

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we are talking about why AESA was introduced early into Rafale
Because France wanted to master this technology and therefore made the required investment for this.

It's pretty simple.
why other radars had better performance than the PESA
Debatable. You're comparing rotary phone with smartphone. Sure, perhaps the reception is better on your rotary phone on the landline than on a first gen smartphone with a spotty cell grid, but you can still do things with the smartphone that you can't do with the rotary phone.

What's the point of developing the best landline phone on the market when your competitors are already fielding smartphones? How about breeding the best pack mule when your competitors are building trucks? So the Eurofighter guys wanted to waste their time making the best pulse doppler radar ever; that's great, it means they still don't have an AESA while the Rafale has flown with PESA since the start and with AESA since 2012. And through all these years, the engineers haven't been idling: the Rafales equipped with PESA or AESA antenna have collected a lot of operational data through all their flights, and this has helped refine and improve the radar software. There have been at least two programs of development for improving the RBE2-AA since its introduction (CARAA and MELBAA).

Just because you have an "opinion", doesn't mean you have an argument, let alone understand the topic.
I think you meant to say that to your mirror.
 

Ashwin

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Hehe, were you one of the 100s of people that got the red cap and then went over to the Rafale display to get the blue cap too? πŸ˜†

P.S. Is it me, or were very little news and info's posted from AI19? πŸ˜•
Na, Choose sitting in the cockpit over the red cap. Rafale static display was an operational french aircraft. There were no weapon display or cap!.

I feel all info posted all around here. Have you checked the AI thread -> Aero India 2019 - Bengaluru