Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

lcafanboy

Senior member
Dec 22, 2017
2,537
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Bangalore
Read on another forum:
  • Seems one of the rear landing gear lost an element and crumbled just before take-off, destabilizing the aircraft and causing the tragedy.
  • It was the first aircraft modernized entirely by HAL without Dassault and Thales supervising.
It seems teacher Dassault thought everything but what can we do when reservation quota chaap child HAL is DUFFER student...😬😬😬😠😠🤐
 

Himanshu

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
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indopacfront.blogspot.com
Mirage 2000 Crash in Bengaluru 1st Feb 2019 – Sad Loss of a National Resource

What We Know

An Indian Air Force (IAF) Mirage 2000 crashed during takeoff on 1st Feb 2019 at about 1030 AM IST. The aircraft was under acceptance test flight after an upgrade program. Sources indicate that state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was involved in deliverance of the upgrade. This was the second or third acceptance sortie.

Test pilots manning the ill-fated flight, Sqn Ldr Samir Abrol and Sqn Ldr Siddhartha Negi, both alumni of the 40th Flight Test Course (FTC) from Air Force Test Pilots School, Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), IAF, Bengaluru perished in the crash. They leave behind families (and testers like me) who are still coming to terms with the terrible tragedy. The IAF and ASTE are doing their best to assist the bereaved while an investigation is underway.

What Sources Reveal

The aircraft was on a test flight in ‘heavy’ configuration with drop tanks. Soon after unstick (high speed, when the aircraft lifts off from the runway), there has been some event which forced the aircraft back onto the runway. There is no such thing as a safe ‘Reject Takeoff’ after unstick. So the TPs must have had to make split-second decisions – something crew of that Mirage were well trained to do. The main landing gear (MLG) reportedly collapsed on impact and the aircraft careened on the runway till it tore through the arrester barrier at other end of the runway.

As per reports, the aircraft skidded on its belly/drop-tanks, maintaining almost centreline alignment till barrier engagement at the opposite dumbell. This is not surprising. Test pilots don’t earn their graduation badges easy. They are top-of-the-game aviators. Samir and Siddharth were just seven months into their TP career. Freshly-minted but with more than adequate experience and apex skills that differentiate boys from men.

What Can be Inferred

News reports and official press releases indicate that both pilots ejected. They seem to have ejected after going through the arrester barrier. That’s a significant detail. Arrester barriers are terrible speed breakers; there for a reason.

At least one of them (Sqn Ldr Siddharth Negi, as per sources) landed on the flaming debris with his parachute. Sqn Ldr Samir Abrol also touched down within the explosion zone of the aircraft that went up in flames. This indicates ejection at slow speed, possibly after barrier engagement when momentum of the ill-fated aircraft was dissipated to a large extent. It is not clear whether any SGA (Soft Ground Arrester) or clearway helped break the aircraft momentum.

Any premature inferences pointing towards “pilots ejected but landed on the flaming debris and died” must be treated with circumspection. Pilots ejecting out of a Mirage 2000 careening at over 200 kmph with a ‘zero-zero’ ejection seat cannot accurately rendezvous the flaming debris unless certain conditions, not in their control, are met. This the Court of Inquiry already underway will hopefully unearth.

As per accepted protocol, any aircraft out of upgrade/modernisation has to be first test flown by OEM/HAL test pilots. Only after they are completely satisfied is the aircraft offered for ASTE acceptance. Standing watch between these processes are many watch dogs who must answer for the crash that claimed national resources (CRE/CRI/RCMA/CEMILAC). There is no room for complacency. Remember, there have been precedences (Saras, ”idly Avro’, IJT, etc.)

What Next

An investigation is underway. ASTE functions under protocols widely different from frontline squadrons. Flight testing is inherently risky, made no easier by agencies who have scant regard for safety and human lives. We must await the results turned out by the CoI.

Meanwhile, please do not get misled by tweets and trolls who try to exact mileage out of this unfortunate accident, replaying the Modi-RaGa-Rafale scam-mongering. That will be the biggest disservice to Samir and Siddharth – two young test pilots who laid down their lives struggling with legacy equipment, and a recalcitrant establishment who have their eyes on votes and tweets more than the real stuff that ails our armed forces today.

Test crew are a national resource. Don’t reduce them or the organizations they represent to the denomination of your petty political squabbles and Twitter wars. As a nation, we need to move on from scam-mongering to a more inspirational & scientifically-informed dialogue in aerospace.

We are just two weeks away from Aero India 2019. Walk the talk. Let science, analyses and thorough investigation prevail. That’s the best tribute you can pay these fallen air warriors.

Blue skies, Sam & Sid. We will never forget your sacrifice.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: suryakiran

Ankit Kumar

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Nov 30, 2017
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The DARIN 3 for 61 Jaguars, what's the status? IOC was achieved some time back. AESA and ASRAAM are under procurement. The Engine is still a problem it seems. If IAF has given its requirements and a more powerful engine is needed then what's the problem?
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
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The DARIN 3 for 61 Jaguars, what's the status? IOC was achieved some time back. AESA and ASRAAM are under procurement. The Engine is still a problem it seems. If IAF has given its requirements and a more powerful engine is needed then what's the problem?
If guys in HAL and IAF have any brains, they shud go for IHI-XF5 engine from Japan. They developed it for ATD2x TD and we can easily buy the complete engine including 100%TOT from them. That engine is exactly same diameter and length as present adour engines on Jags but lighter by over 160kgs and have max thrust of 49KN of which dry thrust is 35KN. This engine is far superior to F125IN and will also cost much cheaper than that.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,366
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Mumbai
If guys in HAL and IAF have any brains, they shud go for IHI-XF5 engine from Japan. They developed it for ATD2x TD and we can easily buy the complete engine including 100%TOT from them. That engine is exactly same diameter and length as present adour engines on Jags but lighter by over 160kgs and have max thrust of 49KN of which dry thrust is 35KN. This engine is far superior to F125IN and will also cost much cheaper than that.
It seems to me as if the MoD is waiting for HAL to come up with its own engines. There could be no other reason behind the delays.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
4,928
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If guys in HAL and IAF have any brains, they shud go for IHI-XF5 engine from Japan. They developed it for ATD2x TD and we can easily buy the complete engine including 100%TOT from them. That engine is exactly same diameter and length as present adour engines on Jags but lighter by over 160kgs and have max thrust of 49KN of which dry thrust is 35KN. This engine is far superior to F125IN and will also cost much cheaper than that.
IAF should give out final needs that if it really needs a new engine for the heavier aircraft due to more upgrades, or can do with the present engine. If they want a more powerful engine, then a RFP should be issued for the engine and Honeywell shouldn't be allowed to walk to banks after milking us heavily.

What you say is ideal, but then its Indian MoD we are talking about.
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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It seems to me as if the MoD is waiting for HAL to come up with its own engines. There could be no other reason behind the delays.
Lol, they are totally dependent upon Russians even for the under performing engines for IJT 36 and you are saying that MoD and IAF are actually banking on HAL to deliver an engine within a couple of years?
 

Ankit Kumar

Team StratFront
Nov 30, 2017
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This deal can go thru as soon as in two months as G2G with Modi picking up his phone and talking to Abe.
G2G deals, some minimum common sense will solve a lot of things, but you see its 5 years and other than 36 Rafales and S400, I don't see any critical acquisition yet.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,366
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Mumbai
Lol, they are totally dependent upon Russians even for the under performing engines for IJT 36 and you are saying that MoD and IAF are actually banking on HAL to deliver an engine within a couple of years?
I always knew I was too dry for my own good. Anymore dryness & I'd evaporate. Like what happened in the post of mine you've quoted.
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,255
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G2G deals, some minimum common sense will solve a lot of things, but you see its 5 years and other than 36 Rafales and S400, I don't see any critical acquisition yet.
Where is the money? Do you remember my hatred for Jai-Italyji? he is the only *censored* who imposed customs duty on weapon imports and thereby further draining the already scarce budget of armed forces. Even Congies did not do it but he did. How can anyone call him a patriotic Indian? he is same as Raghuram Rajan and Urjit Patel-The cheats of India and traitors.
 

Sathya

Senior member
Dec 2, 2017
2,779
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India
This deal can go thru as soon as in two months as G2G with Modi picking up his phone and talking to Abe. As G2G deal there will be no need for tendering.

Honeywell demonstrated integration with Jaguar, putting it in advantage in time to execute the deal .

Modi started this term with Japanese tour , planning to buy US2 amphi plane .

Nothing has happened yet.

I doubt we ll buy any weapons at all from them.
 

Guynextdoor

Senior member
Dec 19, 2017
3,993
1,141
India
Mirage 2000 Crash in Bengaluru 1st Feb 2019 – Sad Loss of a National Resource

What We Know

An Indian Air Force (IAF) Mirage 2000 crashed during takeoff on 1st Feb 2019 at about 1030 AM IST. The aircraft was under acceptance test flight after an upgrade program. Sources indicate that state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was involved in deliverance of the upgrade. This was the second or third acceptance sortie.

Test pilots manning the ill-fated flight, Sqn Ldr Samir Abrol and Sqn Ldr Siddhartha Negi, both alumni of the 40th Flight Test Course (FTC) from Air Force Test Pilots School, Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE), IAF, Bengaluru perished in the crash. They leave behind families (and testers like me) who are still coming to terms with the terrible tragedy. The IAF and ASTE are doing their best to assist the bereaved while an investigation is underway.

What Sources Reveal

The aircraft was on a test flight in ‘heavy’ configuration with drop tanks. Soon after unstick (high speed, when the aircraft lifts off from the runway), there has been some event which forced the aircraft back onto the runway. There is no such thing as a safe ‘Reject Takeoff’ after unstick. So the TPs must have had to make split-second decisions – something crew of that Mirage were well trained to do. The main landing gear (MLG) reportedly collapsed on impact and the aircraft careened on the runway till it tore through the arrester barrier at other end of the runway.

As per reports, the aircraft skidded on its belly/drop-tanks, maintaining almost centreline alignment till barrier engagement at the opposite dumbell. This is not surprising. Test pilots don’t earn their graduation badges easy. They are top-of-the-game aviators. Samir and Siddharth were just seven months into their TP career. Freshly-minted but with more than adequate experience and apex skills that differentiate boys from men.

What Can be Inferred

News reports and official press releases indicate that both pilots ejected. They seem to have ejected after going through the arrester barrier. That’s a significant detail. Arrester barriers are terrible speed breakers; there for a reason.

At least one of them (Sqn Ldr Siddharth Negi, as per sources) landed on the flaming debris with his parachute. Sqn Ldr Samir Abrol also touched down within the explosion zone of the aircraft that went up in flames. This indicates ejection at slow speed, possibly after barrier engagement when momentum of the ill-fated aircraft was dissipated to a large extent. It is not clear whether any SGA (Soft Ground Arrester) or clearway helped break the aircraft momentum.

Any premature inferences pointing towards “pilots ejected but landed on the flaming debris and died” must be treated with circumspection. Pilots ejecting out of a Mirage 2000 careening at over 200 kmph with a ‘zero-zero’ ejection seat cannot accurately rendezvous the flaming debris unless certain conditions, not in their control, are met. This the Court of Inquiry already underway will hopefully unearth.

As per accepted protocol, any aircraft out of upgrade/modernisation has to be first test flown by OEM/HAL test pilots. Only after they are completely satisfied is the aircraft offered for ASTE acceptance. Standing watch between these processes are many watch dogs who must answer for the crash that claimed national resources (CRE/CRI/RCMA/CEMILAC). There is no room for complacency. Remember, there have been precedences (Saras, ”idly Avro’, IJT, etc.)

What Next

An investigation is underway. ASTE functions under protocols widely different from frontline squadrons. Flight testing is inherently risky, made no easier by agencies who have scant regard for safety and human lives. We must await the results turned out by the CoI.

Meanwhile, please do not get misled by tweets and trolls who try to exact mileage out of this unfortunate accident, replaying the Modi-RaGa-Rafale scam-mongering. That will be the biggest disservice to Samir and Siddharth – two young test pilots who laid down their lives struggling with legacy equipment, and a recalcitrant establishment who have their eyes on votes and tweets more than the real stuff that ails our armed forces today.

Test crew are a national resource. Don’t reduce them or the organizations they represent to the denomination of your petty political squabbles and Twitter wars. As a nation, we need to move on from scam-mongering to a more inspirational & scientifically-informed dialogue in aerospace.

We are just two weeks away from Aero India 2019. Walk the talk. Let science, analyses and thorough investigation prevail. That’s the best tribute you can pay these fallen air warriors.

Blue skies, Sam & Sid. We will never forget your sacrifice.

I attended the funeral services of the pilots today. It was heartbreaking to see the near ones of the martyred crying. Thankfully the armed forces acts like a family. I'm sure if the locals had known what was happening they'd have turned up in strength to give them a heroic sendoff.
 

Himanshu

Senior member
Dec 3, 2017
912
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indopacfront.blogspot.com
Of the 51 Mirage-2000 planes, only 11 have been upgraded so far. Dassault Aviation, the original manufacturer, upgraded four jets—two at its own plant in France and the rest at the HAL headquarters. So far, the HAL has delivered 9 planes, including the two done by Dassault here. The crashed plane was the 10th upgraded by HAL and the 12th overall if the two done in France are counted.

Mirage crash may hit jet upgrade
 

vstol Jockey

Professional
Dec 1, 2017
6,255
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New Delhi
Of the 51 Mirage-2000 planes, only 11 have been upgraded so far. Dassault Aviation, the original manufacturer, upgraded four jets—two at its own plant in France and the rest at the HAL headquarters. So far, the HAL has delivered 9 planes, including the two done by Dassault here. The crashed plane was the 10th upgraded by HAL and the 12th overall if the two done in France are counted.

Mirage crash may hit jet upgrade
French are also not above board in it. They are guilty of delaying kits for upgrade.
 

Ashwin

Agent_47
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Nov 30, 2017
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Bangalore
The DARIN 3 for 61 Jaguars, what's the status? IOC was achieved some time back. AESA and ASRAAM are under procurement. The Engine is still a problem it seems. If IAF has given its requirements and a more powerful engine is needed then what's the problem?
The Contract for upgradation of 61 Jaguar Display, Attack, Range and Inertial Navigation-I (DARIN-I) aircraft to DARIN-III standard was signed with HAL in December 2009. Contractual timelines for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) were December 2012 & June 2013 respectively. Contractual timelines for delivery of all the Series Upgrade aircraft was December 2017. IOC has been obtained in February 2017. FOC has not yet been achieved. The delay in the project is due to following reasons:-

  • Introduction of certain new requirements projected by IAF which required additional software design, implementation and flight trials efforts.
  • Delay in supply of certain Buyers Furnished Equipments by IAF.
  • Up gradation of certain equipment like Smart Multi- Function Display sought by IAF.


The development of Mission Computer was taken up by HAL through its Joint Venture Company, HAL Edgewood Technologies Limited (HETL). After some initial delay, the development of Mission Computer has now been completed.



Regarding Smart Multi Function Display (SMFD), as per the revised requirement of IAF, a suitable alternative has been identified by HAL. This SMFD has also attained certification.



The progress of Jaguar DARIN-III upgrade programme is regularly reviewed by Ministry of Defence through meetings with HAL & IAF.

Press Information Bureau
 

halloweene

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
319
369
Paris
French are also not above board in it. They are guilty of delaying kits for upgrade.
Sry VSTOL, check. Kits were delivered in tima and manner. And they are getting so old that they hesistate to keep guaranteeing them.
Another point is kits are for a "A" version, HAL being responsible fo the "*B" standard.
In clear language, they are ageing in a storage area, unused to complete fail of HAL (cames to me from a Thales engineer).

HAL is too big to be just at a little agile.
 

halloweene

Well-Known member
Dec 1, 2017
319
369
Paris
The Contract for upgradation of 61 Jaguar Display, Attack, Range and Inertial Navigation-I (DARIN-I) aircraft to DARIN-III standard was signed with HAL in December 2009. Contractual timelines for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC) were December 2012 & June 2013 respectively. Contractual timelines for delivery of all the Series Upgrade aircraft was December 2017. IOC has been obtained in February 2017. FOC has not yet been achieved. The delay in the project is due to following reasons:-

  • Introduction of certain new requirements projected by IAF which required additional software design, implementation and flight trials efforts.
  • Delay in supply of certain Buyers Furnished Equipments by IAF.
  • Up gradation of certain equipment like Smart Multi- Function Display sought by IAF.


The development of Mission Computer was taken up by HAL through its Joint Venture Company, HAL Edgewood Technologies Limited (HETL). After some initial delay, the development of Mission Computer has now been completed.



Regarding Smart Multi Function Display (SMFD), as per the revised requirement of IAF, a suitable alternative has been identified by HAL. This SMFD has also attained certification.



The progress of Jaguar DARIN-III upgrade programme is regularly reviewed by Ministry of Defence through meetings with HAL & IAF.

Press Information Bureau
Ever worked with israeli defense societies? Good luck to bet specs promised.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
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Ever worked with israeli defense societies? Good luck to bet specs promised.
Frankly, our experience with Jewry is limited. Though we have our own examples. In due time, all our emotional Indian members will realise the cost of dealing with a jew.