Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

randomradio

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Honestly we should do a G2G deal seperate from the MMRCA for the Mig 35's. And I know it's stupid but we have atleast 100 mig 29 across the IAF and IN. They need to be AESA equipped. And we can use them as a test bed for further tech until the tejas mk 2 comes online. Though by the time this deal fruitions the mk 2 will come online

The Mig-35 is a waste of money. LCA Mk2 is a better bet even if it comes a bit later. As a brand new design, using unproven Russian tech, it's going to take years before the Mig-35 becomes operationally usable. Which is the reason why the IAF has insisted on only operational aircraft as their 4th gen choice. Even in Russia, it's still in its earlier stages. It's only in LSP stage. It will take until 2024 or more before IOC deliveries begin, and as much as 2026 or more to see it fully operational in Russian service, only after that can we even begin to consider it. The Su-57 Stage 1 is at a much more advanced stage. We basically need 4th gen jets that have been in operation for years before we consider them seriously. No new jets. It's also among the reasons why we are not interested in the F-35, it's not even finished development.

A better bet is to see if there's an option for another 20 unused Mig-29s hidden in Russia somewhere, although I doubt there's any.
 

jk007

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A better bet is to see if there's an option for another 20 unused Mig-29s hidden in Russia somewhere, although I doubt there's any.
I doubt if there are ever any unused mig-29s. All this is for public consumption. India is buying used fighters that RuAF can spare.

Think about it - fighters stored for 30 years and can still be used? In 1990, USSR had money to initiate the elaborate storage of all these aircrafts?
 

jk007

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The upgraded M2000s are currently our second best jets in the fleet, behind the Rafale. So it's not trash.
Please explain for me.

India was doing with just 50 (+/-) top level aircraft (mirage 2000) [I am talking about before rafale]??? That is all the planning that was done??.....and continuing to buy su30, even though they know it is not top of line?

Or (as the Pakistanis say) feb-27 has showed us that su-30 is not so great aircraft??

BTW - with my limited knowledge, I was always thinking su-30 is the best, as it was the latest purchase (before rafale).
 

randomradio

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I doubt if there are ever any unused mig-29s. All this is for public consumption. India is buying used fighters that RuAF can spare.

Think about it - fighters stored for 30 years and can still be used? In 1990, USSR had money to initiate the elaborate storage of all these aircrafts?

The fighters did not finish production. So the airframes were split up, sealed and stored. Now the airframes are going to get all new engines and avionics. Even if they were stored for years, they are still usable since they do not have even an hour in the air, so the airframe has not undergone any stress, hence no cracks. All you gotta do is paint it and it's almost as good as new.

Similarly the Russians have a lot of subs and ships that were not completed either. That's how we got the Akula and plan to get one more.
 
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Tatvamasi

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I fully support he decision to go for addtinal M2K. These 24 aircraft will give us the forth M2k sqn. The final mix by 2025 will be 4Rafale sqn+4 M2k sqn+6LcaMk1A sqn +4Mig-29 sqn+15 Su-30MKI sqn+5Jag sqns. Making it a total of 38 sqns. M2k once upgraded is a very potent aircraft with tech flowing in from Rafale.
Only eight of them could fly.
 

randomradio

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Please explain for me.

India was doing with just 50 (+/-) top level aircraft (mirage 2000) [I am talking about before rafale]??? That is all the planning that was done??.....and continuing to buy su30, even though they know it is not top of line?

Or (as the Pakistanis say) feb-27 has showed us that su-30 is not so great aircraft??

BTW - with my limited knowledge, I was always thinking su-30 is the best, as it was the latest purchase (before rafale).

We were originally supposed to operate 150-200 M2000s starting in the early 80s. But due to a mix of financial trouble, manipulation of prices, politics etc we decided to go for Mig-27s and Mig-29s instead. We got a lot of stuff from the Union in the 80s after all, including assistance in our BM, SSBN etc. So some sacrifices were made, and M2000 was one of them. It still didn't stop the IAF from trying to get 126 of them, that's how the original MRCA was born.

As for the Su-30, when it came out it was excellent, a state-of-the-art jet with pretty much no equal, until the F-22, Typhoon and Rafale came to the fore. However that was 20 years ago. Now it's in dire need of upgrades and even the LCA Mk1 beats it in capability. So naturally, the M2000 and Mig-29 upgrades also pushed these jets past the MKI.

At this time, in our inventory, considering overall capabilities:
Rafale > M2000 > Mig-29/LCA > MKI

Post upgrade will definitely push it past most of our jets save for the Rafale, but that's still years away. Anyway, it doesn't mean the MKI cannot do air defence effectively, but that's not all that jets are about.

As for Balakot, I don't really know what people are expecting. Those 2 MKIs pretty much stopped the entirety of the PAF on its tracks. They couldn't do anything the minute contact was made. All they could do was release their glide bombs and pray they hit something. What you saw is pretty much how a successful DCA happens. The MKI is still very effective at air defence, even more so against the PAF.

Anyway, we are giving importance to small jets now because that's where the actual need is. With over 250 MKIs, we are more than well set in the heavy category. Now we need 400+ smaller jets. Heavy 4th gen jets come with capabilities that smaller 4th gen jets do not have, and vice versa.
 

Hydra

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I will pick Mirage 2000 any day over junk 17 ...Even Pakistan will pick f16 over their junk17-III, we are getting a good deal so we are fine ...we have to be careful on spending extra money on the sound system and other accessories :ROFLMAO:
Can't agree with you. Mirages were good back then,may be good now too, but certainly it will not be tomorrow.
And IAF had just opened a pandora box by going for second hand items. You don't have any idea on how finance guys in government sector works,this will be a new standard for them now onwards, here onwards they will ask each wing to search for second hand items from Europe whenever our forces move a file for new procurement.
Great decision. Wouldn't mind getting more hands on second hand M2000's. They can handle most of pakistani fleet and the 4th gen Chinese fleet. We just need to get hands on mig 29 and upgrade it to smt and upg standard and raise more squadrons..Both these AC's are superior to most of the Pakistani fleet and the Half of the Chinese fleet..
@randomradio
 

thinkingcap81

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Jun 2, 2019
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As for Balakot, I don't really know what people are expecting. Those 2 MKIs pretty much stopped the entirety of the PAF on its tracks. They couldn't do anything the minute contact was made. All they could do was release their glide bombs and pray they hit something. What you saw is pretty much how a successful DCA happens. The MKI is still very effective at air defence, even more so against the PAF.
Maybe that's not exactly what happened. PAF might have been tasked to just lob a few glide bombs to show that they too have the guts to bomb. It's silly to think that PAF wanted to bomb Army positions and kill our armed forces. Our retaliation would have been too much for Pakistan.

Probably they really didn't want to engage IAF too much and just took shots from far with their AIM120Cs. So once when the MKIs started showing some aggression they let loose a few missiles and left the scene. Also by that time an aerial battle with Abhinandan was going on.

I think that PAF didn't expect IAF too even act aggressively with such less aircrafts in the air. They just thought that IAF would be very defensive given the bubble of asymmetry they created. But Abhinandan's engagement with the F-16s, slight aggression by the MKIs and proper defence by the Mirages made PAF suddenly abandon their plans and they hurriedly let loose their glide bombs. After all PAF and PA want to show that they're equal to the IAF and IA but they'll be always unsure of what happens if our armed forces suddenly get aggressive and use more of its assets. That's why Pak returned Abhinandan so soon.
 

randomradio

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We are getting to the MMRCA numbers. Not in a very desirable way, but the numbers are coming in.

36 Rafale + 21 Mig-29 + 13 M2K = 70 jets

Add 54 from Taiwan, we get 124 jets.

We get 2 more Rafale squads, we still get to 106 jets around the time the LCA Mk2s begin delivery in numbers, without Taiwan's M2Ks. At the very least, the IAF will get 4 Rafale squadrons, the minimum necessary for the frontline along China.
 
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TARGET

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Can't agree with you. Mirages were good back then,may be good now too, but certainly it will not be tomorrow.
And IAF had just opened a pandora box by going for second hand items. You don't have any idea on how finance guys in government sector works,this will be a new standard for them now onwards, here onwards they will ask each wing to search for second hand items from Europe whenever our forces move a file for new procurement.
Agree, That's why we have to use it as is or with the minimal fix ...but a big no for upgrades. Russian 2nd hand aircraft (Mig 29) big no :p
use the same amount for an additional s400 regiment.
 

randomradio

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Maybe that's not exactly what happened. PAF might have been tasked to just lob a few glide bombs to show that they too have the guts to bomb. It's silly to think that PAF wanted to bomb Army positions and kill our armed forces. Our retaliation would have been too much for Pakistan.

Anybody with a fighter jet and a long range glide bomb can demonstrate that against any air force, even the USAF. Since it wasn't a war, they simply had the first shot advantage.

Probably they really didn't want to engage IAF too much and just took shots from far with their AIM120Cs. So once when the MKIs started showing some aggression they let loose a few missiles and left the scene. Also by that time an aerial battle with Abhinandan was going on.

That's extremely unprofesional.

They took those shots with the full intention to kill. Their intention was clearly to punish us in return for our bombings.

If their intention was only to demonstrate capability, they didn't have to do what they did. They literally showed off all their cards and went back to the drawing board overnight, for demonstrating a capability that's actually taken for granted. In order to rebuild their capabilities all over again, it's going to take them a minimum of 5-10 years. Are you sure that was worth it?

Plus they wouldn't have to fire off more than a dozen bombs just to show off. The overall scale was too big for a mere demonstration of capabilities. You don't know it, but the PAF has gone back to the drawing board with respect to a lot of their EM capabilities because they have lost a lot of whatever suprise they could achieve.

I think that PAF didn't expect IAF too even act aggressively with such less aircrafts in the air.

Wouldn't make sense, since beating back such lopsided numbers is what air forces train for. Red Air is always outnumbered for that reason. The IAF actually broke their formation, which is why they gave up.

They just thought that IAF would be very defensive given the bubble of asymmetry they created. But Abhinandan's engagement with the F-16s, slight aggression by the MKIs and proper defence by the Mirages made PAF suddenly abandon their plans and they hurriedly let loose their glide bombs.

That's the goal of the defender. Even the mere act of manoeuvring to engage can break an enemy formation. In the radar images released by the IAF, we could see from the PAF aircraft trails that their formations had already dissolved.

After all PAF and PA want to show that they're equal to the IAF and IA but they'll be always unsure of what happens if our armed forces suddenly get aggressive and use more of its assets. That's why Pak returned Abhinandan so soon.

What they did doesn't demonstrate equal capability though.

Op Swift Retort was actually a knee-jerk reaction and was an all-in gambit. We all know that after that point, the PAF conceded air superiority to the IAF over the LoC, post which we used unarmed UAVs to go across and pick out army installations and demolish them using artillery, which went on until the beginning of this year.

They used Abhinandan very well. They got the Americans to pressure India to cease attacks in exchange for his release. So they simply got lucky.
 

Lolwa

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The Mig-35 is a waste of money. LCA Mk2 is a better bet even if it comes a bit later. As a brand new design, using unproven Russian tech, it's going to take years before the Mig-35 becomes operationally usable. Which is the reason why the IAF has insisted on only operational aircraft as their 4th gen choice. Even in Russia, it's still in its earlier stages. It's only in LSP stage. It will take until 2024 or more before IOC deliveries begin, and as much as 2026 or more to see it fully operational in Russian service, only after that can we even begin to consider it. The Su-57 Stage 1 is at a much more advanced stage. We basically need 4th gen jets that have been in operation for years before we consider them seriously. No new jets. It's also among the reasons why we are not interested in the F-35, it's not even finished development.

A better bet is to see if there's an option for another 20 unused Mig-29s hidden in Russia somewhere, although I doubt there's any.
Most probably they will have more airframes. And su 57 order will take three years to come online..
We can get a lot more second hand mirages though..
 

Lolwa

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They literally showed off all their cards and went back to the drawing board overnight, for demonstrating a capability that's actually taken for granted. In order to rebuild their capabilities all over again, it's going to take them a minimum of 5-10 years. Are you sure that was worth it?
Maybe that was the plan. Put enough a show and bait our air force to over extend leading to a su getting shot down. Ground targets were never their objectives. They wanted a visual propaganda victory. So their actual target was shooting down an IAF aircraft. Most likely an mki but they got mig 21 instead. Then they used their info war capabilities to push propaganda. It was all propaganda victory. They won't need much security once cpec comes online..
They used Abhinandan very well
That's what they always wanted it was a media campaign to show themselves as the sane mature power and india as reactionary..
 

Hydra

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Agree, That's why we have to use it as is or with the minimal fix ...but a big no for upgrades. Russian 2nd hand aircraft (Mig 29) big no :p
use the same amount for an additional s400 regiment.
29-30 yrs from now IAF will be running behind france & quatar for second hand Rafale to suppliment the 36 examples of IAF.
Going for second hand aircraft is the worst decision some one can take, i smell cds role here.
I fully support he decision to go for addtinal M2K. These 24 aircraft will give us the forth M2k sqn. The final mix by 2025 will be 4Rafale sqn+4 M2k sqn+6LcaMk1A sqn +4Mig-29 sqn+15 Su-30MKI sqn+5Jag sqns. Making it a total of 38 sqns. M2k once upgraded is a very potent aircraft with tech flowing in from Rafale.
You was a fighter pilot for decades, you will not like to fly in second hand sea harriers, i am pretty sure about it.
 

Sathya

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@Picdelamirand-oil France has 24 mirage-2000 to sell at $1M each??? Previously, yourself & other French members are saying that France loves & needs her mirage-2000? Is this all real?

Personally, I think getting Mirage-2000 at $1M is very cheap.


Maybe as sweetener for the next 36 Rafales.

Maybe only the obsoletes were on sale.
Not sure how of stock they still have..

I think we bought these 24 crafts with the power of force chief who can spend utpo 300 cr.

27 million euro = 233 cr rupee.

In case we upgrade these, we can be very sure of eloberate plans to buy Mirages from Taiwan & Qatar in place.. And these 13 flyable mirages are also interim plan to maintain that factory capabilities..
 
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jk007

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In case we upgrade these, we can be very sure of eloberate plans to buy Mirages from Taiwan & Qatar in place.. And these 13 flyable mirages are also interim plan to maintain that factory capabilities..
Qatar will never sell their m20000 to India for cheap.

Taiwan is so rich, why would they sell their good weapons?? that too when no country (other than USA) is selling them weapons??
 
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Sathya

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Qatar will never sell their m20000 to India for cheap.

Taiwan is so rich, why would they sell their good weapons?? that too when no country (other than USA) is selling them weapons??

Taiwan has some issue with erosion or something from sea air..
And going for new F16 purchase.
I think both of them in more recent standards may not need extensive upgrade.

If we upgrade the 13 flyable of 24 , it also will become expensive.

Let's see how it unfolds..

We had Jaguar production, so some frames were made flyable. With respect to Mirages, I am not sure how capable we are...
Do we have to import kits from France to upgrade? @randomradio
 

jk007

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Taiwan has some issue with erosion or something from sea air..
And going for new F16 purchase.
I think both of them in more recent standards may not need extensive upgrade.

If we upgrade the 13 flyable of 24 , it also will become expensive.

Let's see how it unfolds..

We had Jaguar production, so some frames were made flyable. With respect to Mirages, I am not sure how capable we are...
Do we have to import kits from France to upgrade? @randomradio
Tweet from one Rishav (copied from another forum):
START
So if the rumours are true, the 24 Mirages in line to be procured by IAF (including the ones in flyworthy conditions) are reportedly of Mirage 2000C Gen 1 specs. Therefore, no RDY-2 PDR, no ICMS, and most importantly, no compatibility with MICA family of AAMs
END

Basically, all the 24 m2000 are for cannibalizing their parts.