Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

Milspec

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There was never a "good" price.

In 2013, it was $3.7B for 120 Jaguars and the current quote is $2.4B for 80 Jaguars.
Re-engining Jag's was moot anyways, use them till they last and then donate the shells to schools.

Current options are more than enough to cover it's role, and in actual combat, it's more of a liability, less of an asset. We are not going to fighting rag tag militia's where we can deploy a lumbering slug bug.
 
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randomradio

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I agree with you. But it will need a deep modernisation of the engine and that will cost a lot. Moreover, the fuel efficiency will be lost if the bypass ratio is readjusted. We will need higher core tempratures to achieve higher thrust with same airflow which is restricted due to the intake size.
I like the philosophy of Americans, they buit SH F-18 intakes with 85kg/sec capability and the 116KN F414 engine needs that and can be fitted with zero modification.

Honeywell comes with similar amount of risk with respect to integration as well. The engine was never made for the Jaguar. And it's not a drop fit either, which is why the insanely high integration costs quoted by Honeywell.

They should have instead pushed for a more advanced joint development of the Adour 15 years ago.

The Americans have always had a proper upgrade path for engines right from the beginning. Look at how many times the F-16 was modified. Even 50 years later there is a new upgrade path available.
 

randomradio

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Whole world has retired it.
Time to move on with LCA mk1A or Mk2 if it becomes available.
We know our speed of acquisition.
After all negotiations and by the time engine arrives 6-7 years would have crossed.
Either HTFE ( to spend on indigenous industry with time available to fit in last batches of Jaguars) or retirement.

Nah, mate. The LCAs are not the right replacement for the Jaguars. And the HTFE is not a fighter jet engine, HAL is making it for business jets. Any advanced modification will take 10+ years after the current one is ready, and even that's 2025. Then comes the flight testing and such, by which time even the last Jaguar will need retirement.

A decision has to be taken soon, or bust.
 

Sathya

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Nah, mate. The LCAs are not the right replacement for the Jaguars. And the HTFE is not a fighter jet engine, HAL is making it for business jets. Any advanced modification will take 10+ years after the current one is ready, and even that's 2025. Then comes the flight testing and such, by which time even the last Jaguar will need retirement.

A decision has to be taken soon, or bust.
Even mk2 can't replace?

We ll not be able to afford replace entire Jag with Rafale..
 

randomradio

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Re-engining Jag's was moot anyways, use them till they last and then donate the shells to schools.

Current options are more than enough to cover it's role, and in actual combat, it's more of a liability, less of an asset. We are not going to fighting rag tag militia's where we can deploy a lumbering slug bug.

Out of 6 squadrons, 2 are gonna leave service anyway. So it's all about the other 4 left. And out of those 4, two are not even 20 years old, so they will easily make it to the 2040s, if we want it to. The problem is the remaining 2. We need to keep these 2 squadrons relevant for as long as possible due to the squadron drawdown.

The only viable replacements for the Jaguar are Rafale and AMCA. And you already know the status of these two.
 

randomradio

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Even mk2 can't replace?

No. Not in role or timeframe. Need two engines for the role. And the initial batches of Mk2s are needed to replace our Mig-29s, while also fulfilling the role of the Mig-21 and Mig-27.

We ll not be able to afford replace entire Jag with Rafale..

AMCA will replace Jaguars.

40 AMCA Mk1 are set to replace the 2 squadrons to retire by the 2030, with the remaining 4 squadrons to be replaced with the AMCA Mk2.
 

Hydra

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Whole world has retired it.
Time to move on with LCA mk1A or Mk2 if it becomes available.
We know our speed of acquisition.
After all negotiations and by the time engine arrives 6-7 years would have crossed.
Either HTFE ( to spend on indigenous industry with time available to fit in last batches of Jaguars) or retirement.
Its old, but its an aircraft in our inventory which able to perform most accurate bombing mission with gravity bombs, better than mki, migs, mirages. And only aircraft capable to perform low level penetration. And AFAIK its the only IAF aircraft capable to carry GBU105 sensor fused anti tank bomb. So IAF wont let it go easily.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Its old, but its an aircraft in our inventory which able to perform most accurate bombing mission with gravity bombs, better than mki, migs, mirages. And only aircraft capable to perform low level penetration. And AFAIK its the only IAF aircraft capable to carry GBU105 sensor fused anti tank bomb. So IAF wont let it go easily.
Objection your honour: the Rafale is also capable to perform low level penetration.
 

Hydra

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Objection your honour: the Rafale is also capable to perform low level penetration.
I didn't mention rafale in that list, i said its better than mki, migs & mirages.
Objection your honour: the Rafale is also capable to perform low level penetration.
Do rafale can carry GBU105? Last time when we discussed, i comes to know that it cannot and it will never be.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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I didn't mention rafale in that list, i said its better than mki, migs & mirages.

Do rafale can carry GBU105? Last time when we discussed, i comes to know that it cannot and it will never be.
  • You said "And only aircraft capable to perform low level penetration."
  • France has signed The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) which is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer, and stockpiling of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area.
 

Hydra

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France has signed The Convention on Cluster Munitions (CCM) which is an international treaty that prohibits the use, transfer, and stockpiling of cluster bombs, a type of explosive weapon which scatters submunitions ("bomblets") over an area.
At the end of the day it cannot carry GBU105!

The weapon comes in handy for a country has intention to go for land invasion over others and a country faces a threat of land invasion, both scenario will witness intense battle involving tank to tank actions . And FYI india faces a tank invasion threat from pak & we will be having a Tank thrust on pak ( a wild guess, not sure about it).
And in your case, you dont have any plan for land invasion on others by your own, you may face a russian invasion ( though in current scenario, i mean post usssr breakdown that possibility is far from reality ), but uncle sam is there to take care of that. May Sounds hypocritical, You will not stop USA to use Cluster ammunitions for you i guess in the event of Russian invasion.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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At the end of the day it cannot carry GBU105!

The weapon comes in handy for a country has intention to go for land invasion over others and a country faces a threat of land invasion, both scenario will witness intense battle involving tank to tank actions . And FYI india faces a tank invasion threat from pak & we will be having a Tank thrust on pak ( a wild guess, not sure about it).
And in your case, you dont have any plan for land invasion on others by your own, you may face a russian invasion ( though in current scenario, i mean post usssr breakdown that possibility is far from reality ), but uncle sam is there to take care of that. May Sounds hypocritical, You will not stop USA to use Cluster ammunitions for you i guess in the event of Russian invasion.
If the Russians really want to invade us with tanks our plans are to use the ASMP with a neutron bomb.
 

Hydra

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Picdel was part of France's nuclear weapons program. He was practically one of the top guys there.
If France has decided to go with nuke game with Russia, its 100% certain that France will be evaporated. We don't want such things to happen with us, thats why we have no first use of nuke in a war, even on a battle ground.
 
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Hydra

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And that is why you are not a member of the UN Security Council. The main purpose of the Security Council is to prevent nuclear use between Major Powers.
We are not a member of UN because, we are not the winner in WW2. You & other 4 became permanent membership in UN because you defeated axis aand made the world order like that, you received permanent status as a privilege of your ww2 victory ( and thank uncle sam, great britian for your victory followed by your UN permanent membership ).
AFAIK un's main purpose is to avoid all sort of armed conflicts, not just to prevent only nuclear use. Luckily, the leaders of all nuclear powers are so wise that they didn't use it on others.