Military Mediocrity - Who Will Bell the Cat?

Nope!


I will say Chinese economy is 2.5 times that of India. Given that China and India has almost same size of population.

Yeah, okay. According to you China is 2.5 times bigger than India. So I suppose the US is also 2.5-3 times bigger than India. Yeah, I guess that settles it then. India is a super rich country basically. Sorry, but I'd like to live in reality.
 
Yeah, okay. According to you China is 2.5 times bigger than India. So I suppose the US is also 2.5-3 times bigger than India. Yeah, I guess that settles it then. India is a super rich country basically. Sorry, but I'd like to live in reality.
Not according to me, according to facts Chinese economy is 2.5 times Indian economy. According to facts US economy is about twice size of Indian economy. Consult GDP PPP if you doubt. Sorry, but thats the reality.
 
Not according to me, according to facts Chinese economy is 2.5 times Indian economy. According to facts US economy is about twice size of Indian economy. Consult GDP PPP if you doubt. Sorry, but thats the reality.

Oh, really? Then how come China's retail sales figure is over $5T a year, while India's is $700B?

Or do you think 5000/700=2.5?
 
Oh, really? Then how come China's retail sales figure is over $5T a year, while India's is $700B?

Or do you think 5000/700=2.5?
I guess this should answer your question :

Mind you this was just Mumbai vs Shanghai. Compare second tier Indian cities with Chinese ones and difference is even starker. If cost of living is twice or higher in China as compared to India, its not hard to see how Chinese retail sales figure amount to 6-7 times that of India. 2 x 2.5 (size of economy) = 5 times. Thats 3.5 Trillion expected right here. If you take the effect of second tier cities you will end up closer to 6-7 times (2.5 (size of economy) * 2.5 (price differentials)) = 6.25 times.

Consumer Prices in Shanghai are 71.53% higher than in Mumbai
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Shanghai are 78.76% higher than in Mumbai
Rent Prices in Shanghai are 90.19% higher than in Mumbai
Restaurant Prices in Shanghai are 51.31% higher than in Mumbai
Groceries Prices in Shanghai are 78.00% higher than in Mumbai
 
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I guess this should answer your question :

Mind you this was just Mumbai vs Shanghai. Compare second tier Indian cities with Chinese ones and difference is even starker. If cost of living is twice or higher in China as compared to India, its not hard to see how Chinese retail sales figure amount to 6-7 times that of India. 2 x 2.5 (size of economy) = 5 times. Thats 3.5 Trillion expected right here.

Consumer Prices in Shanghai are 71.53% higher than in Mumbai
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Shanghai are 78.76% higher than in Mumbai
Rent Prices in Shanghai are 90.19% higher than in Mumbai
Restaurant Prices in Shanghai are 51.31% higher than in Mumbai
Groceries Prices in Shanghai are 78.00% higher than in Mumbai

Haha. I'm liking this. No it doesn't answer my question.

Can you tell me why the difference between electricity prices is just 16% or gasoline is just 6%?
 
Can you tell me why the difference between electricity prices is just 16% or gasoline is just 6%?
Who cares? The overall consumer prices is almost twice! If you want to drill down to individual items, be my guest. It will be a minutia.

For that matter milk costs almost four times in Shanghai than Mumbai.
A bottle of water costs almost twice in Shanghai than Mumbai.

So what if electricity or gasoline is just 16% or 6% higher, other commodities are WAY more expensive in shanghai.

May I ask why you have such a hard-on on electricity and gasoline?


BTW, look at delhi vs beijing : Cost of Living Comparison Between Delhi, India And Beijing, China

Consumer prices in beijing (including rent) is 2.2 times that of Delhi.
 
Oh, really? Then how come China's retail sales figure is over $5T a year, while India's is $700B?
BTW, if you want to further cherry pick, check this :

India’s Oil Consumption was reported at 5,270.734 Barrel/Day th in Dec 2019
China’s Oil Consumption was reported at 14,055.516 Barrel/Day th in Dec 2019

Last I checked 14.06 / 5.27 = 2.67
 
Who cares? The overall consumer prices is almost twice! If you want to drill down to individual items, be my guest. It will be a minutia.

For that matter milk costs almost four times in Shanghai than Mumbai.
A bottle of water costs almost twice in Shanghai than Mumbai.

So what if electricity or gasoline is just 16% or 6% higher, other commodities are WAY more expensive in shanghai.

May I ask why you have such a hard-on on electricity and gasoline?


BTW, look at delhi vs beijing : Cost of Living Comparison Between Delhi, India And Beijing, China

Consumer prices in beijing (including rent) is 2.5 times that of Delhi.

What do you mean who cares? I care, and so does every other general in the world.

I don't make ships based on cost of living, I make ships based on the cost of gasoline and electricity.

So when you speak of capex on a military, you need to compare the price of gasoline and electricity, not banana and rice.

China's installed power generation capacity is 2000GW as of 2019. India's installed power capacity is 365GW in 2019. A difference of 5.5. China added 1/3rd of India's total installed capacity in just 1 year in 2019. So yeah, I prefer to live in reality.

China spends half of what we do in percentage terms on their military and we still have a massive spending gap with them. And that's literally because of the price of gasoline and electricity.

Let's do the math, shall we? India spends $45B on defence, and $15B out of that is spent on capex and the remaining on revenue. Of the $30B in revenue, let's assume we spend $20B on salaries, bananas and rice. That leaves $25B for modernisation and operation costs. Now, the Chinese are roughly the same as us in numbers, so the revenue expenses are the same. But let's add your cost of living numbers, and then further double it for the sake of it. For easy calculation, let's say the Chinese spend 100% more (instead of 70% as given by Numbeo), and then let me double that even further. So let's assume China is spending $80B on personnel costs, which is far more than generous. Hell, let's just add another $20B for the heck of it. So China is now effectively spending 500% more on salaries and food, than the mere 70% increase for the stuff mentioned in Numbeo, compared to us. I don't think you should have any arguments against that. The Chinese defence budget is $250B. You take out 100B out of that, we get $150B. So, even after the ridiculous expenses on personnel I've created out of thin air, China's spending on capex and operations is $150B.

So in which world is 150B 2.5 times of $25B? And remember, the Chinese spending is only half that of ours. If they decide to match us, then it's going to be $300B, all spent on "gasoline and electricity".

So we got 150B in spending for China compared to 25B for India. Which is 6 times. And this is similar to the 5.4 times we got for installed power generation between the two countries. Effectively, China can spend 5-6 times on procuring military gear than India without even trying. At least 12 times if they actually tried by merely matching us. These are hard facts, not made up numbers. And I haven't even considered the fact that we import while they make everything they need at home.

So I don't think you understand the value of money at all. Or how much of a difference is there between China/US and India. And even after having explained it, a complete waste of my time, mind you, I don't think you will still get it. Cheers.
 
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Let's do the math, shall we? India spends $45B on defence, and $15B out of that is spent on capex and the remaining on revenue. Of the $30B in revenue, let's assume we spend $20B on salaries, bananas and rice. That leaves $25B for modernisation and operation costs.
Quite wrong. And no need to wreck your brain.

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Its actually about 60% on Salary and Pensions. 25-26% on Stores and Captial Expenditure. Meaning, Indian expenses are actually dominated by "rice and banana" when it comes to your defence budget. So, throw your faulty maths out of window, its not even needed.

Let's do the math, shall we? India spends $45B on defence, and $15B out of that is spent on capex and the remaining on revenue. Of the $30B in revenue, let's assume we spend $20B on salaries, bananas and rice. That leaves $25B for modernisation and operation costs. Now, the Chinese are roughly the same as us in numbers, so the revenue expenses are the same. But let's add your cost of living numbers, and then further double it for the sake of it. For easy calculation, let's say the Chinese spend 100% more (instead of 70% as given by Numbeo), and then let me double that even further. So let's assume China is spending $80B on personnel costs, which is far more than generous. Hell, let's just add another $20B for the heck of it. So China is now effectively spending 500% more on salaries and food, than the mere 70% increase for the stuff mentioned in Numbeo, compared to us. I don't think you should have any arguments against that. The Chinese defence budget is $250B. You take out 100B out of that, we get $150B. So, even after the ridiculous expenses on personnel I've created out of thin air, China's spending on capex and operations is $150B.
Before you even go there, lemme ask, which Chinese budget do you trust? Official one or SIPRI one. BTW, SIPRI also has opinion on Indian defence expenses too and think that we under report it.

Official is actually 178 billion dollars. If we use it, and take those 100 billion (as you suggested) out of 178 billion, we are left with what? 78 billion?

Now compare those 78 billion with our 25 billion, about 3 times. quite close to our initial estimate of Chinese economy being 2.5 times of Indian economy. QED.
So I don't think you understand the value of money at all. Or how much of a difference is there between China/US and India. And even after having explained it, a complete waste of my time, mind you, I don't think you will still get it. Cheers.
Sorry dear, you are again wrong.
 
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Quite wrong. And no need to wreck your brain.

View attachment 17338

Its actually about 60% on Salary and Pensions. 25-26% on Stores and Captial Expenditure. Meaning, Indian expenses are actually dominated by "rice and banana" when it comes to your defence budget. So, throw your faulty maths out of window, its not even needed.

Pension is not part of the military budget.

Before you even go there, lemme ask, which Chinese budget do you trust? Official one or SIPRI one. BTW, SIPRI also has opinion on Indian defence expenses too and think that we under report it.

Official is actually 178 billion dollars. If we use it, and take those 100 billion (as you suggested) out of 178 billion, we are left with what? 78 billion?

Now compare those 78 billion with our 25 billion, about 3 times. quite close to our initial estimate of Chinese economy being 2.5 times of Indian economy. QED.

Sorry dear, you are again wrong.

Lol. I knew you will say nonsense.

Hence:
And even after having explained it, a complete waste of my time, mind you, I don't think you will still get it. Cheers.
 
Hence:
And even after having explained it, a complete waste of my time, mind you, I don't think you will still get it. Cheers.
BTW, one last thing. Why are you bringing China in this discussion. Where in this thread I said we should go to a war with China. all I said is we can afford wars to keep our preparation up to the mark and weed out mediocrity. I never said we should fight with China. Currently we are not even fighting with third class players like Pakistan and don't have a prepration to capture even parts of PoK. Feb 19 is proof enough with its emergency procurement.
Haha. Okay.
Joke is on you dear. If you think you know more than MoD or MoF or a think tank like IDSA.
 
BTW, one last thing. Why are you bringing China in this discussion. Where in this thread I said we should go to a war with China. all I said is we can afford wars to keep our preparation up to the mark and weed out mediocrity. I never said we should fight with China. Currently we are not even fighting with third class players like Pakistan and don't have a prepration to capture even parts of PoK. Feb 19 is proof enough with its emergency procurement.

Why don't you look up how much all the advanced economies spend relative to their govt spending, and then see if India is rich...
 
No one on this planet believes in the Chinese official budget. Not even the Chinese themselves. Even SIPRI's budget is said to be underestimated.
They don't trust Indian numbers too. But if you are comparing you have to take same standards.
Why don't you look up how much all the advanced economies spend relative to their govt spending, and then see if India is rich...
Rich or Rich enough? Rich enough to fight a small war with say Pakistan and capture some of their territory. Rich enough to take part in allied military operation in say middle east?

Right now, we are not prepared for either of them and its not money that is the problem. Its the competence of leadership as shown in this article.
 
They don't trust Indian numbers too.

Lol wut?

But if you are comparing you have to take same standards.

Okay, then let's take "same standards". Since you are so interested then if you bring in the numbers you will trust them yourself.

I'll give you a little homework. If you do it, maybe you will understand a bit more. It should take you only a few minutes to do it.

Take the national budget of each of these countries, US, China, France and India, in that order. National budget = Yearly govt spending.
Then look up the defence budget of each of these countries. Take the official Chinese figure you want to. Then check how much percent the defence budget is in relation to the national budget. And finally list them and compare. If that doesn't solve your problem, then you are most definitely a lost case.
 
Take the national budgets of each of these countries, US, China, France and India, in that order. National budget = Yearly govt spending.
Then look up the defence budgets of each of these countries. Take the official Chinese figure you want to. Then check how much percent the defence budget is in relation to the national budget. And finally list them and compare. If that doesn't solve your problem, then you are most definitely a lost case.
What will be your source of this data, Mr Prof? Where should one take these numbers from?
BTW, FYI, Budget =/= yearly govt spending. Budget has two components : income and spending.

And I still don't know why the hell I am comparing with China when the answer I seek is this : "Is India rich enough to afford small wars every now and then with countries like Pakistan and take part in military operation of like minded allies". And "Is money the reason for Indian failures vis a vis Pakistan?". I have strong suspicion that answer for the later is NO.
 
What will be your source of this data, Mr Prof? Where should one take these numbers from?

It's all public. Simply pick it up from wherever you want. Or else you will crib about it later.

Do it for 2019.

And I still don't know why the hell I am comparing with China when the answer I seek is this : "Is India rich enough to afford wars every now and then with countries like Pakistan and take part in military operation of like minded allies". And "Is money the reason for Indian failures vis a vis Pakistan?". I have strong suspicion that answer for the later is NO.

Worry about this after the homework.