Maritime Patrol Aircraft : P-8I Neptune, IL-38, Dornier-228 : News & Discussions

Hydra

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May 19, 2020
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I wanted to post an emoticon or a meme, but what's the point. 2 years down the line you'd be asking the same questions to someone else that you're posing today.
Instead of giving tantrum, come up wih technical information or atleast bring a reliable source or logic to substantiate your argument.
 

_Anonymous_

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Dec 4, 2017
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Instead of giving tantrum, come up wih technical information or atleast bring a reliable source or logic to substantiate your argument.
Take it from me, for someone who can't tell the difference between a C-295 & a Saras / Dornier, any explanation is wasted on you. Do me a favor & ignore me / block me / mute me. Don't quote me again & I'd reciprocate the gesture
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Never heard of a Maritime patrol aircraft being used for AEW.
Having SAR is in line with its primary function of large area scanning, as SAR helps in detection of small boats and snorkeling submarine at sea. That can be used on land too.
But AEW??

P-8I has seen two major modifications when it comes to radar. The main radar in the nose has been given an air search function, with multiple modes. And, unlike the American version, it comes with an aft radar with an air search range of over 400Km. So this gives the P-8I full 360 deg AEW&CS capability.

This is the aft radar.
 

randomradio

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Years ago I saw P-8I in all its glory .
Talked to the crew who told me that the aircraft relies primarily on cameras for detection of Submarine.
It has cameras which can see wavelengths which can travel through water and can be picked up be cameras.

The concept and use of these aircrafts is different from what we the general public think.
These are not "Submarine detection " aircrafts rather pinpointing tools.

The aircraft cannot be sent out in the open open to detect a Submarine.
The initial detection has to be done by shore, ship or Submarine based sonars.
Usually arrays of sonars which triangle the enemy Submarine to a finite area.
Once it has been established that enemy Submarine is lurking in a certain area, then these aircrafts are sent to that finite area to "Pinpoint " the enemy Submarine.

Optical sensors are the oldest sensors when it comes to submarine hunting, starting with the Mk1 eyeball, aka, human eyes.

But radar and optics only works up to a certain depth, periscope depth. The primary way to detect a submarine under water is by using sound. And since sound propogates differently due to changes in temperature, salinity, depth etc, you need a lot of air, surface and sub-surface assets if you are to detect, track and kill submarines. The P-8I is only one of those assets.

I don't believe a single asset can effectively perform anti-sub operations on its own. You need a sensor net over a very large area.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Optical sensors are the oldest sensors when it comes to submarine hunting, starting with the Mk1 eyeball, aka, human eyes.

But radar and optics only works up to a certain depth, periscope depth. The primary way to detect a submarine under water is by using sound. And since sound propogates differently due to changes in temperature, salinity, depth etc, you need a lot of air, surface and sub-surface assets if you are to detect, track and kill submarines. The P-8I is only one of those assets.

I don't believe a single asset can effectively perform anti-sub operations on its own. You need a sensor net over a very large area.
An ATL2 can successfully hunt a submarine on its own, so I think a P8I can too. To do this it will have to use several dozen acoustic buoys of different types over a fairly large area indeed.
 

randomradio

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An ATL2 can successfully hunt a submarine on its own, so I think a P8I can too. To do this it will have to use several dozen acoustic buoys of different types over a fairly large area indeed.

Will they operationally do it though? Randomly drop sonobuoys everywhere and hope something is picked up? I thought that would be wasteful expenditure of resources.

I'm sure the P-8 can indeed kill a submarine on its own even without the help of the ship or helicopter. My assumption is a ship, sub or an underwater sensor will detect a submarine somewhere, then a P-8 would be cued towards it, and then the P-8 starts dropping sonobuoys around its last known location, so that way the resources are not wasted. In the meantime, if a ship is involved, then it will use its own sensors, launch an ASW helicopter etc. You're the expert.
 

safriz

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Jan 1, 2018
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P-8I has seen two major modifications when it comes to radar. The main radar in the nose has been given an air search function, with multiple modes. And, unlike the American version, it comes with an aft radar with an air search range of over 400Km. So this gives the P-8I full 360 deg AEW&CS capability.

This is the aft radar.
OK I was unaware of Maritime radar with Air surveillance mode.
Upon further reading I see some issues.
The whole system in only 84kg in weight and max output of 8kw.
A dedicated AEW&C has much larger radar and outputs of 50kw and above.
So this is an add on, not a replacement of AEW&C
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Will they operationally do it though? Randomly drop sonobuoys everywhere and hope something is picked up? I thought that would be wasteful expenditure of resources.

I'm sure the P-8 can indeed kill a submarine on its own even without the help of the ship or helicopter. My assumption is a ship, sub or an underwater sensor will detect a submarine somewhere, then a P-8 would be cued towards it, and then the P-8 starts dropping sonobuoys around its last known location, so that way the resources are not wasted. In the meantime, if a ship is involved, then it will use its own sensors, launch an ASW helicopter etc. You're the expert.
Yes, but it can also detect a periscope or a schnorkel with its radar, have placed a passive buoy barrage in the supposed path of enemy submarines and detect the passage when it takes place, and sometimes have a somewhat special bathythermia, with resurgences, which allows very long-range detection.
 
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randomradio

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OK I was unaware of Maritime radar with Air surveillance mode.
Upon further reading I see some issues.
The whole system in only 84kg in weight and max output of 8kw.
A dedicated AEW&C has much larger radar and outputs of 50kw and above.
So this is an add on, not a replacement of AEW&C

That's because you are comparing L band with S and X band. But yeah, it's adds to the capability, it's not a dedicated AWACS.

But radar capability can be enhanced with drones carrying a more dedicated radar connected to the P-8I using high bitrate datalinks like the ones we have with 5G. So the P-8I can still perform full AWACS duties as long as it's connected to offboard radars.
 

randomradio

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Nov 30, 2017
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Yes, but it can also detect a periscope or a schnorkel with its radar, have placed a passive buoy barrage in the supposed path of enemy submarines and detect the passage when it takes place, and sometimes have a somewhat special bathythermia, with resurgences, which allows very long-range detection.

Yeah, there's no doubt that aircraft can deal with submarines when at periscope depths.

What do you think about high-powered lasers and later on quantum radars in terms of submarine detection?
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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P-8I has seen two major modifications when it comes to radar. The main radar in the nose has been given an air search function, with multiple modes. And, unlike the American version, it comes with an aft radar with an air search range of over 400Km. So this gives the P-8I full 360 deg AEW&CS capability.

This is the aft radar.
I vaguely remember 200 km range reading somewhere..
I think from Falcon post.. That range in public domain is around 200 km.
 

Ashwin

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Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) 310, indiannavy's most decorated unit to celebrate Diamond Jubilee on March 21




 

Parthu

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Dec 1, 2017
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Years ago I saw P-8I in all its glory .
Talked to the crew who told me that the aircraft relies primarily on cameras for detection of Submarine.
It has cameras which can see wavelengths which can travel through water and can be picked up be cameras.

The concept and use of these aircrafts is different from what we the general public think.
These are not "Submarine detection " aircrafts rather pinpointing tools.

The aircraft cannot be sent out in the open open to detect a Submarine.
The initial detection has to be done by shore, ship or Submarine based sonars.
Usually arrays of sonars which triangle the enemy Submarine to a finite area.
Once it has been established that enemy Submarine is lurking in a certain area, then these aircrafts are sent to that finite area to "Pinpoint " the enemy Submarine.

Umm...in addition to those multi-spectral cameras the P-8s have:

A large number of Sonobuoys:

In storage:



In launcher:



A pair of advanced radars (front & back) that are sensitive enough to detect even a periscope or snorkel mast above the water:

AN/APY-10:



AN/APS-143(v)3 OceanEye (unique to Indian P-8I:



And a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) sensor, again unique to Indian P-8I:

AN/ASQ-508A AIMADS:

MAD.JPG


As well as sophisticated ELINT equipment that can detect burst transmissions sent out by radio buoys on surface (tethered to submarine below).

In short, the P-8I can hunt for Submarines in all the traditional ways as well. True the US has access to several extensive global sensor nets that it can lean on so the US variant is designed to function without the MAD sensor, but the Indian variant has incorporated this.
 
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