Maritime Patrol Aircraft : P-8I Neptune, IL-38, Dornier-228 : News & Discussions

Hydra

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I wanted to post an emoticon or a meme, but what's the point. 2 years down the line you'd be asking the same questions to someone else that you're posing today.
Instead of giving tantrum, come up wih technical information or atleast bring a reliable source or logic to substantiate your argument.
 

_Anonymous_

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Instead of giving tantrum, come up wih technical information or atleast bring a reliable source or logic to substantiate your argument.
Take it from me, for someone who can't tell the difference between a C-295 & a Saras / Dornier, any explanation is wasted on you. Do me a favor & ignore me / block me / mute me. Don't quote me again & I'd reciprocate the gesture
 

randomradio

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Never heard of a Maritime patrol aircraft being used for AEW.
Having SAR is in line with its primary function of large area scanning, as SAR helps in detection of small boats and snorkeling submarine at sea. That can be used on land too.
But AEW??

P-8I has seen two major modifications when it comes to radar. The main radar in the nose has been given an air search function, with multiple modes. And, unlike the American version, it comes with an aft radar with an air search range of over 400Km. So this gives the P-8I full 360 deg AEW&CS capability.

This is the aft radar.
 

randomradio

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Years ago I saw P-8I in all its glory .
Talked to the crew who told me that the aircraft relies primarily on cameras for detection of Submarine.
It has cameras which can see wavelengths which can travel through water and can be picked up be cameras.

The concept and use of these aircrafts is different from what we the general public think.
These are not "Submarine detection " aircrafts rather pinpointing tools.

The aircraft cannot be sent out in the open open to detect a Submarine.
The initial detection has to be done by shore, ship or Submarine based sonars.
Usually arrays of sonars which triangle the enemy Submarine to a finite area.
Once it has been established that enemy Submarine is lurking in a certain area, then these aircrafts are sent to that finite area to "Pinpoint " the enemy Submarine.

Optical sensors are the oldest sensors when it comes to submarine hunting, starting with the Mk1 eyeball, aka, human eyes.

But radar and optics only works up to a certain depth, periscope depth. The primary way to detect a submarine under water is by using sound. And since sound propogates differently due to changes in temperature, salinity, depth etc, you need a lot of air, surface and sub-surface assets if you are to detect, track and kill submarines. The P-8I is only one of those assets.

I don't believe a single asset can effectively perform anti-sub operations on its own. You need a sensor net over a very large area.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Optical sensors are the oldest sensors when it comes to submarine hunting, starting with the Mk1 eyeball, aka, human eyes.

But radar and optics only works up to a certain depth, periscope depth. The primary way to detect a submarine under water is by using sound. And since sound propogates differently due to changes in temperature, salinity, depth etc, you need a lot of air, surface and sub-surface assets if you are to detect, track and kill submarines. The P-8I is only one of those assets.

I don't believe a single asset can effectively perform anti-sub operations on its own. You need a sensor net over a very large area.
An ATL2 can successfully hunt a submarine on its own, so I think a P8I can too. To do this it will have to use several dozen acoustic buoys of different types over a fairly large area indeed.
 

randomradio

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An ATL2 can successfully hunt a submarine on its own, so I think a P8I can too. To do this it will have to use several dozen acoustic buoys of different types over a fairly large area indeed.

Will they operationally do it though? Randomly drop sonobuoys everywhere and hope something is picked up? I thought that would be wasteful expenditure of resources.

I'm sure the P-8 can indeed kill a submarine on its own even without the help of the ship or helicopter. My assumption is a ship, sub or an underwater sensor will detect a submarine somewhere, then a P-8 would be cued towards it, and then the P-8 starts dropping sonobuoys around its last known location, so that way the resources are not wasted. In the meantime, if a ship is involved, then it will use its own sensors, launch an ASW helicopter etc. You're the expert.
 

safriz

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P-8I has seen two major modifications when it comes to radar. The main radar in the nose has been given an air search function, with multiple modes. And, unlike the American version, it comes with an aft radar with an air search range of over 400Km. So this gives the P-8I full 360 deg AEW&CS capability.

This is the aft radar.
OK I was unaware of Maritime radar with Air surveillance mode.
Upon further reading I see some issues.
The whole system in only 84kg in weight and max output of 8kw.
A dedicated AEW&C has much larger radar and outputs of 50kw and above.
So this is an add on, not a replacement of AEW&C
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Will they operationally do it though? Randomly drop sonobuoys everywhere and hope something is picked up? I thought that would be wasteful expenditure of resources.

I'm sure the P-8 can indeed kill a submarine on its own even without the help of the ship or helicopter. My assumption is a ship, sub or an underwater sensor will detect a submarine somewhere, then a P-8 would be cued towards it, and then the P-8 starts dropping sonobuoys around its last known location, so that way the resources are not wasted. In the meantime, if a ship is involved, then it will use its own sensors, launch an ASW helicopter etc. You're the expert.
Yes, but it can also detect a periscope or a schnorkel with its radar, have placed a passive buoy barrage in the supposed path of enemy submarines and detect the passage when it takes place, and sometimes have a somewhat special bathythermia, with resurgences, which allows very long-range detection.
 
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randomradio

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OK I was unaware of Maritime radar with Air surveillance mode.
Upon further reading I see some issues.
The whole system in only 84kg in weight and max output of 8kw.
A dedicated AEW&C has much larger radar and outputs of 50kw and above.
So this is an add on, not a replacement of AEW&C

That's because you are comparing L band with S and X band. But yeah, it's adds to the capability, it's not a dedicated AWACS.

But radar capability can be enhanced with drones carrying a more dedicated radar connected to the P-8I using high bitrate datalinks like the ones we have with 5G. So the P-8I can still perform full AWACS duties as long as it's connected to offboard radars.
 

randomradio

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Yes, but it can also detect a periscope or a schnorkel with its radar, have placed a passive buoy barrage in the supposed path of enemy submarines and detect the passage when it takes place, and sometimes have a somewhat special bathythermia, with resurgences, which allows very long-range detection.

Yeah, there's no doubt that aircraft can deal with submarines when at periscope depths.

What do you think about high-powered lasers and later on quantum radars in terms of submarine detection?
 

Sathya

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Dec 2, 2017
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P-8I has seen two major modifications when it comes to radar. The main radar in the nose has been given an air search function, with multiple modes. And, unlike the American version, it comes with an aft radar with an air search range of over 400Km. So this gives the P-8I full 360 deg AEW&CS capability.

This is the aft radar.
I vaguely remember 200 km range reading somewhere..
I think from Falcon post.. That range in public domain is around 200 km.
 

Ashwin

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Indian Naval Air Squadron (INAS) 310, indiannavy's most decorated unit to celebrate Diamond Jubilee on March 21




 
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Parthu

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Years ago I saw P-8I in all its glory .
Talked to the crew who told me that the aircraft relies primarily on cameras for detection of Submarine.
It has cameras which can see wavelengths which can travel through water and can be picked up be cameras.

The concept and use of these aircrafts is different from what we the general public think.
These are not "Submarine detection " aircrafts rather pinpointing tools.

The aircraft cannot be sent out in the open open to detect a Submarine.
The initial detection has to be done by shore, ship or Submarine based sonars.
Usually arrays of sonars which triangle the enemy Submarine to a finite area.
Once it has been established that enemy Submarine is lurking in a certain area, then these aircrafts are sent to that finite area to "Pinpoint " the enemy Submarine.

Umm...in addition to those multi-spectral cameras the P-8s have:

A large number of Sonobuoys:

In storage:



In launcher:



A pair of advanced radars (front & back) that are sensitive enough to detect even a periscope or snorkel mast above the water:

AN/APY-10:



AN/APS-143(v)3 OceanEye (unique to Indian P-8I:



And a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) sensor, again unique to Indian P-8I:

AN/ASQ-508A AIMADS:

MAD.JPG


As well as sophisticated ELINT equipment that can detect burst transmissions sent out by radio buoys on surface (tethered to submarine below).

In short, the P-8I can hunt for Submarines in all the traditional ways as well. True the US has access to several extensive global sensor nets that it can lean on so the US variant is designed to function without the MAD sensor, but the Indian variant has incorporated this.
 
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Gautam

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Indian Navy's P-8I Submarine Hunting Aircraft Spotted Flying Near South China Sea

by Swarajya Staff
Aug 27, 2021 04:50 PM

1630120569353.png

Indian P-8I flying near South China Sea. (@detresfa_/Twitter)

Snapshot

  • The Indian P-8I is in the region to participate in the Malabar Exercise.
  • The naval drill is being hosted by the US in the Western Pacific.

A P-8I maritime patrol aircraft of the Indian Navy was spotted flying over the Philippines, close to the South China Sea, almost all of which is claimed by China.

The submarine-hunting aircraft is in the region to participate in the Malabar Exercise, featuring the navies of all four Quad countries.


This edition of the Malabar naval exercise is being hosted by the United States Navy in the Western Pacific, off the coast of Guam. The area is not far from the South China Sea, where China has built a large number of artificial islands and militarized them to strengthen its territorial claims over these waters, which host some of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.

China opposes the deployment of foreign military vessels in the region, including the Freedom of Navigation Patrols conducted by the US to assert its right to use the waterways in the South China Sea.

Before reaching Guam in Western Pacific for the Malabar Exercise, the Indian Naval taskforce comprising of Guided Missile Destroyer Ranvijay, Guided Missile Frigate Shivalik, Anti-Submarine Corvette Kadmatt and Guided Missile Corvette Kora was also deployed in the South China Sea. The Indian Navy held exercises with the navies of the Philippines and Vietnam, two of China's neighbours, which dispute its claims over parts of the South China Sea.

"These maritime initiatives enhance synergy and coordination between the Indian Navy and friendly countries, based on common interests and commitment towards Freedom of Navigation at sea," the Indian Navy said on 2 August.

A fleet of P-8I submarine-hunting aircraft of the Indian Navy has joined the naval task force for the Malabar exercise, which will see participation from Japan and Australia, apart from the US. The fleet will participate in an anti-submarine warfare drill during the exercise.

P-8I Aircraft

The Navy received its tenth P-8I aircraft from Boeing in July this year. The aircraft, part of the second batch of four P-8Is bought by India, arrived in Goa from Seattle in the US after stops at Hawaii, Guam and Brunei.

Nine of these aircraft are already in service with the Indian Navy, the largest foreign customer of the P8 platform.

While nine are in service, two more are likely to be delivered this year, and six more are being procured. The Navy, reports say, plans to have a total of 22 of these aircraft in the next few years to keep an eye on Chinese movements in the Indian Ocean Region, most importantly its submarines.

India has also used the aircraft to track Chinese deployments along the Line of Actual Control amid the ongoing standoff in eastern Ladakh. Indian Navy P8s were seen flying towards Ladakh at least twice.

The aircraft was used to monitor Chinese movements along the border during the 73-day-long Doklam standoff in 2017. As Captain D K Sharma (Retd), who was serving as the spokesperson and Public Relation Officer of the Indian Navy, revealed later, “The aircraft were live-streaming data to support decision making during the Doklam face-off”.

The aircraft, a report says, was also put to use “to keep an eye on movement of Pakistani troops after the Pulwama terror attack last year”.

The P-8Is come equipped with the AN/APY-10 radar, which its maker Raytheon describes as a “maritime, littoral and overland surveillance radar”. As it is clear from the description, the radar can be used to monitor ground movement, and is capable of providing data in all-weather conditions, both at night and day.

In the Synthetic Aperture and Inverse synthetic-aperture mode, the AN/APY-10 radar can penetrate through clouds and foliage to give detailed images of the surface below. Images produced by the radar in these modes can give details such as the size of objects and structures on the surface, movement and change.

Talking to Tyler Rogoway of TheWarZone, a pilot of Patrol Squadron Five, a maritime patrol squadron of the United States Navy, which is also known as the "Mad Foxes,” said: “ESM (electronic surveillance measures) is used to collect a wide range of emitters used by... land based facilities at extended ranges. It allows us to be able to geolocate emitters to find a foreign submarine, surface combatant, or land based surface-to-air site. It is also a passive system, which allows us to covertly monitor a wide area.”

“The EO/IR (electro-optical/infrared) camera can be used to visually identify both land and sea based targets, with the IR camera having both white hot and black hot images,” the pilot had told TheWarZone.

Indian Navy's P-8I Submarine Hunting Aircraft Spotted Flying Near South China Sea
 
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