Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

WHOHE

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This is not the opinion of the French military. And they seem to be convincing more and more foreign militaries. Counter active stealth technology is way more complex compare to counter stealth technology.
Lol. Which militaries are the french convincing with their lies? Definitely not the militaries where the F-35 is offered.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Lol. Which militaries are the french convincing with their lies? Definitely not the militaries where the F-35 is offered.
The military facing a real threat.

For example in Greece the F_35 is offered and they preferred to take Rafales again because for them Turkey is a real threat.

And in India, the Americans have been trying for years to place their F-35 with high level agreements, industrial agreements, by making a special version of the F-16 called F-21 which would foreshadow a future sale of F-35 etc... but it will never work because China is a real threat.

And I think for Finland Russia is a real threat. 😛
 
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BMD

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For a plane to be 5th generation, it has to be made by LM, which evolves the definition according to its desires (for example, originally, it needed supercruise but not data fusion, since there is no such thing on the F-22, and now it's the opposite).
In fact stealth is not operationally important, it is only a technical means to achieve survivability. And from the point of view of survivability we have the following situation:

Survivability
F-35
Rafale
Low Observable/Very Low Observable (LO/VLO)
+
Automatic Terrain following
+
Active stealth
+
Manoeuvrability / Supercruise
+
Total
1
3

Which one is really the most survivable? It depends on the situation, and everyone will have to prepare the missions to take advantage of the qualities of their aircraft.

In conclusion, we can say that the F-22 is a 4th generation stealth aircraft while the Rafale is a 5th generation LO aircraft only.
That chart's not even correct.
 
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WHOHE

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The military facing a real threat.

Which ones?
For example in Greece the F_35 is offered and they preferred to take Rafales again because for them Turkey is a real threat.

Greece Wants F-35s So Quickly It’s Willing to Accept Used Aircraft​

Nov. 19, 2020 | By John A. Tirpak
Greece has formally asked the U.S. to purchase 18-24 F-35s, and it wants them so quickly it’s willing to accept ex-USAF airplanes, according to Pentagon officials and Greek press reports.
The official Letter of Request was transmitted to the Pentagon by the Greek defense ministry on Nov. 6. The request asks for the “immediate” purchase of aircraft, such that the first ones could be delivered in 2021; the document said this timeline is “crucial.”
While it’s not clear why Greece views the timing of the purchase as so critical, industry officials said it likely has to do with European Union loan guarantees that will expire in the coming months. The financing is also viewed as the reason Greece may be willing to accept used, ex-Air Force F-35s. The LOR said the sale would be affected by the speed of delivery, configuration of the aircraft, and “the repayment plan.”
Greece has publicly indicated a desire to buy F-35s since early 2019, but ongoing fiscal problems prevented a formal request. The Greek defense ministry initially said it was contemplating the purchase of 25-30 F-35s.
A defense official, speaking on background, said the Air Force has “not identified any F-35s that are excess to need,” so it’s not certain that there are any aircraft that could be made available for sale to Greece secondhand. However, the Air Force has wrestled in recent years with whether it wants to spend the money to modify its oldest training F-35s up to the current production standard. Selling the older jets and replacing them with newer models might meet the Air Force’s needs. USAF has indicated, however, that it will use some older F-35s as Aggressor aircraft.
Defense officials said the U.S. has urged Greece to buy the F-16V Block 70, the most advanced version of the F-16 now available for export. With an extensive F-16 support enterprise already in place, Greece could easily absorb that airplane at a much lower cost, but one official said there’s “a prestige factor” involved. A small batch of F-35s could also be a “force multiplier” for Greece’s other F-16s, he observed.
Turkey, an original partner on the F-35, has been drummed out of the program by the U.S. and NATO allies because of Turkey’s insistence on ordering and deploying the Russian S-400 air defense system. Industry officials speculated that F-35s completed for Turkey–but not delivered–could be offered to Greece. While the U.S. Air Force is getting some of those aircraft, others could be made available for Greece.
“You could think of them as ‘pre-owned,’ but not necessarily ‘used,’” a defense official said.
If Greece is permitted to order brand-new F-35s, it would have to get in line: Lockheed Martin’s production capacity is spoken for through at least 2024, an industry official reported.
The request to buy the F-35 follows Greece’s recent order of Rafale fighters from France. That sale includes six new aircraft and 12 previously flown by the French air force. France has indicated it will replace the 12 airplanes with new-build examples. The first Rafales are set to be delivered to Greece early next year.
Greece Wants F-35s So Quickly It’s Willing to Accept Used Aircraft - Air Force Magazine

We just don't have F-35's ready for Greece we have other customers that were first they will have to wait mid 2020's but since nobody buys the french plane they are available. Also they are buying used french fighters.
And in India, the Americans have been trying for years to place their F-35 with high level agreements, industrial agreements, by making a special version of the F-16 called F-21 which would foreshadow a future sale of F-35 etc... but it will never work because China is a real threat.
We don't think India is ready for such advanced fighter like the F-35 which is why we offered a lesser fighter but equal to your french plane. Indian air force doesn't stand a chance against China because french plane is just another 4th gen fighter.
And I think for Finland Russia is a real threat. 😛
Which is why they will select the F-35.
 

WHOHE

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The French like Dassault's planes because Dassault is always : On time, on spec, on budget

F35 : On time ? On spec ? On budget ? well everything is said.
US fighters have never been on time and on budget but they are superior. Just ask dassault how they do when they go up against the F-35.
 

BMD

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Lately I've realised just how much France has in common with Turkey. Neither is getting the F-35, both exaggerate their own capability to produce fighters and both use migrants for political and financial blackmail.
 
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WHOHE

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The CEO of Dassault has repeatedly spoken out about the F-35 to express his low opinion of the aircraft.
Lol. CEO of dasult having low opinion of the F-35 is like the kid at school that gets beat up having a low opinion of his bully. No s**t!
It's very difficult to cope with the F-35 anyway because most of the time it's grounded.
F-35's have a 75%+ MCR and deployed F-35's like on LHD's and stationed in Okinawa and other have a 80%+ MCR unlike your french plane.

Rafale Fighter Jet Serviceability Rate With French Air Force Is 48.5 Percent​

-
The serviceability rate of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet in service with the French Air Force is 48.5%, according to information given to a French lawmaker by the government.

The serviceability rate or the availability rate is the number of aircraft ready for missions at any given time. In the case of the French Air Force’s Rafale jets, nearly half of the fleet is on the ground undergoing repairs or maintenance, Jane’s reported on 24 November 2016.

According to the Janes report, the official record for France's Dassault Rafale fighter fleet in 2015 (93 aircraft in service with the air force) with a budgeted maintenance cost of EUR343.90 million ($364.56 million). This information was given to a lawmaker which Jane’s did not identify.

The figure presents an interesting proposition as Dassault, through the French government is reported to have promised in its deal with India that it will ensure that there is 75 percent serviceability, i.e 27 aircraft are operationally available at any given time of the 36 that India has orders. “There will be steep penalties if they don’t adhere to timelines,” unnamed sources were quoted as saying by the Hindu on 23 September this year. India concluded an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of €7.87 billion on the same day.

In contrast the Su-30MKI fleet with the Indian Air Force has an operational availability between 55-60 percent which gives it a higher serviceability than the Rafale jets in service with the French AF. The Indian MoD has been in negotiations with the Russian manufacturer of the Su-30 jet to raise the serviceability to 70-75 per cent.

Dassault will begin aircraft deliveries after 36 months and complete in 67 months.

The deliveries of Dassault Rafale fighter jets India ordered will commence from September 2019 with the French government and Dassault committed to providing depot-level maintenance during the pendency of the contract to ensure a high serviceability rate.

And it hasn't gotten any better 2020-2021 for your inferior fighter. Poor Indians their pathetic Flanker fleet is at best 60% MCR and the french with their fighter have a 48% MCR the Indian airforce is going to have almost half of their "advanced" fighter fleet not available for combat against the chicoms and PAF. :eek:
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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"Active Stealth" Just a cute play in words frenchies has come up with to fool their fanboys. No such thing exist only in the minds of french fanboys.

During the presentation of the trilateral exercises American officers recognize the value of the French approach and active stealth.

Moving on to a third topic there you have the technology
I'm coming from a stealth environment. So you have the passive stealth and active stealth. We Americans invested a lot into passive stealth, for years, beginning wit the SR-71 then F-117, B-2, F-35, F-22… but I think it was a mistake because we forgot electronic warfare, when you France persisted into it. It's one of your key asset. You became almost masters in this technology. We Americans needs to come back into it. You also know that materials have their importance, and I assume we will see it on the SCAF. We need keep moving, and to keep our ability to adapt. I want to insist on the fact that both (passive and active) stealth are important, and need to be well integrated to be effective.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

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Lol. CEO of dasult having low opinion of the F-35 is like the kid at school that gets beat up having a low opinion of his bully. No s**t!

F-35's have a 75%+ MCR and deployed F-35's like on LHD's and stationed in Okinawa and other have a 80%+ MCR unlike your french plane.

Rafale Fighter Jet Serviceability Rate With French Air Force Is 48.5 Percent​

-
The serviceability rate of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet in service with the French Air Force is 48.5%, according to information given to a French lawmaker by the government.

The serviceability rate or the availability rate is the number of aircraft ready for missions at any given time. In the case of the French Air Force’s Rafale jets, nearly half of the fleet is on the ground undergoing repairs or maintenance, Jane’s reported on 24 November 2016.

According to the Janes report, the official record for France's Dassault Rafale fighter fleet in 2015 (93 aircraft in service with the air force) with a budgeted maintenance cost of EUR343.90 million ($364.56 million). This information was given to a lawmaker which Jane’s did not identify.

The figure presents an interesting proposition as Dassault, through the French government is reported to have promised in its deal with India that it will ensure that there is 75 percent serviceability, i.e 27 aircraft are operationally available at any given time of the 36 that India has orders. “There will be steep penalties if they don’t adhere to timelines,” unnamed sources were quoted as saying by the Hindu on 23 September this year. India concluded an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) with France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of €7.87 billion on the same day.

In contrast the Su-30MKI fleet with the Indian Air Force has an operational availability between 55-60 percent which gives it a higher serviceability than the Rafale jets in service with the French AF. The Indian MoD has been in negotiations with the Russian manufacturer of the Su-30 jet to raise the serviceability to 70-75 per cent.

Dassault will begin aircraft deliveries after 36 months and complete in 67 months.

[...]

And it hasn't gotten any better 2020-2021 for your inferior fighter. Poor Indians their pathetic Flanker fleet is at best 60% MCR and the french with their fighter have a 48% MCR the Indian airforce is going to have almost half of their "advanced" fighter fleet not available for combat against the chicoms and PAF. :eek:

Then it seems that Indian are very satisfied of Rafale.

It is understood that one squadron of Rafale is equivalent to 2.5 squadrons of Russian Su-30 MKI in terms of turnaround and maintenance.


Fortunately, people here have long been able to interpret the French availability figures, which makes the ignorant look ridiculous.
 

Lolwa

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Poor Indians their pathetic Flanker fleet is at best 60% MCR and the french with their fighter have a 48% MCR the Indian airforce is going to have almost half of their "advanced" fighter fleet not available for combat against the chicoms and PAF
I hope this was a bad faith argument, otherwise it brings your intelligence in question . You assume the Chinese will have 100% availability rates for their air regiments same for the Pakistani who can barely manage to run their f16 and mirage fleet. And as for the pathetic flankers your f-15 fleet has similar availability rates to our flanker fleet.
 

WHOHE

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During the presentation of the trilateral exercises American officers recognize the value of the French approach and active stealth.

It's a play in words for french fanboys like you. No other nations calls it that they call it EW/jamming. Lol.

An F-16 with "active stealth" or better known as AN/ALQ-254(V)1 and AN/ALQ-131(V) jamming pods are just as good or better than french "active stealth" or better known as super duper spectra.

AN/ALQ-131(V) Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) Pod - Northrop Grumman

Viper Shield™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 All-digital Electronic Warfare Suite | L3Harris™ Fast. Forward.

F-15EX EPAWSS and F-35's Barracuda is superior than spectra... just thought you should know.
 
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WHOHE

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I hope this was a bad faith argument, otherwise it brings your intelligence in question . You assume the Chinese will have 100% availability rates for their air regiments same for the Pakistani who can barely manage to run their f16 and mirage fleet. And as for the pathetic flankers your f-15 fleet has similar availability rates to our flanker fleet.
Stop assuming what you think I'm assuming when I'm not assuming it.... wait what? Anyways... No hunny bunny I'm not ignorant of the fact about chicom availability rates of their fighter fleet but it seems you have forgotten one thing... the chicoms are not reliant on foreign parts for their fighters like IAF. That's huge in a conflict where IAF will not only face chicoms but PAF at same time and having half of Indias "modern fighter fleet" grounded is not good.

-Consequently, the Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) bill for all these different fighters, including Rafales, becomes not only a logistical nightmare for the IAF, but also incredibly expensive and one that often adversely impacts their operational availability, which for years has averaged 55-60%.
Rafale Maintenance Costs Will Add Hugely to IAF's Already Strained Finances (thewire.in)

Btw you're nuts if you think USAF F-15 fleet MCR is similar to IAF flanker fleet.
F-15C 72% MCR.
F-15E 70% MCR.
F-16 fleet 73% MCR.
Air Force fighters' mission capable rates rise in 2020 - Air Force Magazine

I question your intelligence for assuming such a thing. :unsure:
 

AbRaj

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I hope this was a bad faith argument, otherwise it brings your intelligence in question . You assume the Chinese will have 100% availability rates for their air regiments same for the Pakistani who can barely manage to run their f16 and mirage fleet. And as for the pathetic flankers your f-15 fleet has similar availability rates to our flanker fleet.
He’s the Forest Gump of this forum.
 
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Lolwa

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Stop assuming what you think I'm assuming when I'm not assuming it.... wait what? Anyways... No hunny bunny I'm not ignorant of the fact about chicom availability rates of their fighter fleet but it seems you have forgotten one thing... the chicoms are not reliant on foreign parts for their fighters like IAF. That's huge in a conflict where IAF will not only face chicoms but PAF at same time and having half of Indias "modern fighter fleet" grounded is not good.

-Consequently, the Maintenance Repair and Overhaul (MRO) bill for all these different fighters, including Rafales, becomes not only a logistical nightmare for the IAF, but also incredibly expensive and one that often adversely impacts their operational availability, which for years has averaged 55-60%.
Rafale Maintenance Costs Will Add Hugely to IAF's Already Strained Finances (thewire.in)

Btw you're nuts if you think USAF F-15 fleet MCR is similar to IAF flanker fleet.
F-15C 72% MCR.
F-15E 70% MCR.
F-16 fleet 73% MCR.
Air Force fighters' mission capable rates rise in 2020 - Air Force Magazine

I question your intelligence for assuming such a thing. :unsure:
"Sukhoi availability which had slipped to 46 per cent today is now above 63 per cent," Parrikar said. This was in 2016
Keep in mind this deal happened in 2018 and there's no new info about availability rates and the availability rates have been increasing since 2014.
So we should be pretty much with similar availability rates to the American f-15.

There's a reason I questioned your intelligence but I guess it might be just ignorance.
 

Lolwa

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"Sukhoi availability which had slipped to 46 per cent today is now above 63 per cent," Parrikar said. This was in 2016
Keep in mind this deal happened in 2018 and there's no new info about availability rates and the availability rates have been increasing since 2014.
So we should be pretty much with similar availability rates to the American f-15.

There's a reason I questioned your intelligence but I guess it might be just ignorance.
Also forgot to add this
"IAF was able to achieve 80% serviceability of aircraft"
This is for an air force exercise..
 

WHOHE

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Then it seems that Indian are very satisfied of Rafale.




Fortunately, people here have long been able to interpret the French availability figures, which makes the ignorant look ridiculous.
Lets try this again since Indian mods are a little touchy about the facts.

India is not satisfied with your french plane or they would have bought the 120+ planned instead of 36. Why would they settle for 36 of this so-called "advanced fighter" when they have a huge threat to their north and west? Especially the north where CCP has stealth fighters and hundreds of 4th gen flankers. I'd understand buying 36 if India was some small Euro country with no real threats like Swiss and many Euro F-35 nations but 36 french fighters when you have CCP next to you says a lot about your plane, bub.
 
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WHOHE

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"Sukhoi availability which had slipped to 46 per cent today is now above 63 per cent," Parrikar said. This was in 2016
63% is not good at all especially when you don't have enough of them and face a bigger threat to the north with a massive flanker/4th gen fighter fleet.
Keep in mind this deal happened in 2018 and there's no new info about availability rates and the availability rates have been increasing since 2014.
So we should be pretty much with similar availability rates to the American f-15.

No. Should could doesn't cut it. India would be boasting if their Flanker fleet MCR was close to US F-15's but they don't because they are not. India is an importer of fighters and parts depending on other nations to keep their fleet fly worthy this is why India's flanker fleet MCR is likely still in high 50% to low 60%.

Also forgot to add this
"IAF was able to achieve 80% serviceability of aircraft"
Conclusion of Exercise Gaganshakti-2018
This is for an air force exercise..
Where does it say Flanker? Doesn't even say how many flankers took part if any.
 
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