Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

zinswinsin

Well-Known member
Dec 4, 2017
575
351
USA
Points about the F-15 being complimentary extrapolating how that makes the avionics of the F-35 bad. But ignore guys saying hey our F-35 is better at EW than growlers. The F-35 alone is the only plane that can operate without dedicated EW and AWACAS.


????????


All we need is jamming pods guys. No need for Growlers. Rhinos + Eagles + Jamming pods = EW better than F-35.


Realistically none of us know how good the EW is. USA has pumped 10's of billions of dollars into this. It's all classified. The bare statement we get is hey it's better than the growler and any 4.5 jet EW.
 

Picdelamirand-oil

Senior member
Nov 30, 2017
3,822
4,433
74
France
Le dude... Your little Rafail gets its a s s handed every time it takes on the F-35 PERIOD! Those are the facts and not opinions like your BS post about 3F not working when it does. Your Rafail is going to fail in Finland just like it failed in Switzerland. You remember Switzerland when you frogs thought Rafail had it in the bag and all of a sudden you got slapped with reality, eh?
That's weak arguments, I was used to better. :unsure:
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,516
11,311
India
Nope, it just means it's complementary in terms of the entire air force. The radar of the F-15EX does slightly better range though. I suppose 001 adds something different to 1 in your opinion.

It wouldn't work the way you say based on how the USAF used it in their exercise. The F-35 simply couldn't use some functions that the F-15EX could. Hence complementary.

Simply put, when the F-35 is around, the F-15EX's EW capability should be completely useless, going by your metric, but that's not so, as per the US. So the F-15 does things the F-35 does not.
 

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,771
1,090
Delhi
Points about the F-15 being complimentary extrapolating how that makes the avionics of the F-35 bad. But ignore guys saying hey our F-35 is better at EW than growlers. The F-35 alone is the only plane that can operate without dedicated EW and AWACAS.


????????


All we need is jamming pods guys. No need for Growlers. Rhinos + Eagles + Jamming pods = EW better than F-35.


Realistically none of us know how good the EW is. USA has pumped 10's of billions of dollars into this. It's all classified. The bare statement we get is hey it's better than the growler and any 4.5 jet EW.
F-15 EX has a faster mission computer and EPAWWS with F15's power will most probably outdo the f-35 when it comes to jamming. But I guess the software, situation awareness and network centric capabilities that make the f-35 still make it the more superior plane..
 

randomradio

Senior Member
Nov 30, 2017
15,516
11,311
India
If you start claiming F-15EX EW/avionics is better than F-35 I suggest you don't unless you want to make yourself look even more clueless.

That's actually what BAE and the USAF are claiming. Obviously since the F-15's EW suite is a decade more advanced. Maybe you don't realise this but BAE makes the F-15's and F-35's EW suite, and if they are claiming the F-15's suite is better, then you're gonna look like a fool disputing their claim.

BAE claims the F-15's EPAWSS is a significant upgrade over the F-35's DEWS. Not my words.

The F-35 has inferior hardware and lacks other capabilities that are present on the F-15, especially GaN.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lolwa

Lolwa

Senior member
Feb 6, 2020
1,771
1,090
Delhi
That's actually what BAE and the USAF are claiming. Obviously since the F-15's EW suite is a decade more advanced. Maybe you don't realise this but BAE makes the F-15's and F-35's EW suite, and if they are claiming the F-15's suite is better, then you're gonna look like a fool disputing their claim.

BAE claims the F-15's EPAWSS is a significant upgrade over the F-35's DEWS. Not my words.

The F-35 has inferior hardware and lacks other capabilities that are present on the F-15, especially GaN.
I forgot that the GaN based jamming would be superior. With that payload capacity and airframe life
Low-key now hoping the F-15 EX wins the MMRCA 2. Had Boeing just done the RCS reductions😭
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,554
968
California
That's actually what BAE and the USAF are claiming. Obviously since the F-15's EW suite is a decade more advanced. Maybe you don't realise this but BAE makes the F-15's and F-35's EW suite, and if they are claiming the F-15's suite is better, then you're gonna look like a fool disputing their claim.

BAE claims the F-15's EPAWSS is a significant upgrade over the F-35's DEWS. Not my words.

The F-35 has inferior hardware and lacks other capabilities that are present on the F-15, especially GaN.
Nice try. I said EW/AVIONICS not just EW. F-15EX overall avionics which include its EW is not as advanced as the F-35's overall avionics and USAF has made that known.


F-15EX Wins Some, Loses Some in Northern Edge​

-The F-15EX both shot down some adversaries and was shot down itself during the recent Northern Edge wargame in Alaska, and work is underway to analyze the results of its first appearance in the major force exercise, according to a test pilot who participated.

“We flew them with two-ships of F-15C models, two-ships of F-15E models, … two-ships of EXs supporting other fourth-gen [flights], and integrating with the F-22 and F-35,” he said.

Though the F-15EXs “tallied some kills while they were up there,” O’Rear acknowledged there were also some losses.

“If you go into any large force exercise and you come back with everybody—with no blue losses—I would probably say that your threat is not as robust as it needs to be, in order to get the learning,” he said. Northern Edge was meant to be a multi-service exercise against a near-peer threat having some low-observable capabilities.

Although O’Rear couldn’t speak to the incidents where the F-15EXs were shot down, “in this kind of environment, most of your blue ‘deaths’ are probably going to be outside of visual range, just because of the threat we’re replicating,” he said. Visual range dogfights are “not something that happens a whole bunch.”

The jets also exercised the Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System, an electronic warfare suite meant to buy the jet more survivability against modern threats. It was the second wargame outing for the EPAWSS, after a Black Flag exercise In December 2020 at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada.
F-15EX Wins Some, Loses Some in Northern Edge - Air Force Magazine

Guess which fighter didn't get shot down outside visual range... F-22 and F-35.

EPAWSS and Barracuda (AN/ASQ-239) are superior to SPECTRA the only problem with EPAWSS is that it is on a 4th gen fighter. EPAWSS was used in Northern Edge21 to see if it can get F-22 and F-35 closer to target (without F-35 using its ew) and it did great however the F-35's Barracuda also has
the same capabilities the difference is F-35 used its EW to hide non-stealthy F-16s.

-
‘The initial scenario was that our two F-35s would escort a four-ship of F-16s across a notional border and protect them against another eight-ship of F-16s simulating a modern adversary. A relatively inexperienced flight leader was in charge of the F-16s on our side and Lt Col Joost ‘Niki’ Luijsterburg, the Tucson detachment commander, was responsible for the adversaries. Up to this point we had only practised these scenarios in the simulators and while we had a decent game-plan, we were all anxious to see how the F-35 would perform in real life. We figured that the F-35’s stealth would keep us out of harm’s way for most of the fight, but that we also need to protect the friendly F-16s, maximize the lethality of their missiles and get them to the target.

To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the ‘Blue Air’ F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.

‘In the debrief ‘Niki’ told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force.’...
Dutch F-35As OUT of the SHADOWS - Combat Aircraft May 2018 pp6 (1).pdf

It's easy for F-15EX EPAWSS to hide a flight of stealthy fighters and get them as close to target as possible but can it do it on non stealthy fighters like the F-35's Barracuda can? F-35s jammed 8 radars while hiding themselves and four F-16's.

F-35 can literally give you an E-virus ("think of stuxnet") according to General Hostage.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,554
968
California
meh.... that is farfetched and quite improbable.
--The issue of how effective the F-35 would be in a classic dogfight often arises. Gen. Hostage noted during our interview that the F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has either made a mistake or been very unlucky. Shooting down other planes using kinetics is only one role of the F-35. Perhaps air forces around the world are going to have to come up with a new honor other than ace to define those who fly the F-35. What should a pilot be awarded for outsmarting the best air defense systems in the world or injecting something like Stuxnet into the enemy’s command and control system? So much of what this aircraft will do has nothing to do with shooting down another pilot that we may need a new term.
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts - Breaking Defense Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


-
LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.

These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.
'A God's Eye View Of The Battlefield:' Gen. Hostage On The F-35 - Breaking Defense Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

So it's his words, a USAF General who was in charged of the F-35 program and knows all of the F-35's classified capabilities, against what you think?

Come on, bruh.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,340
13,267
Mumbai
F-35 can literally give you an E-virus ("think of stuxnet") according to General Hostage.
That there is literally some achievement TEEHEE. I mean with such great capabilities all you've to do is keep flying those F-35s in the Persian Gulf while they upload this E Virus into those Nuclear facilities in I ran . Not only would the F-35s never be detected you'd also save your own as well as the Israelis much sweat . Hell, You could avoid initiating another war in the Middle East or possibly WW-III .

A tiny request . While your F-35s are at it , may we request deployment of those magnificent & omniscient F-35s over Pakistan & North Korea too. In case you're wondering why , these nations have clandestine Nuclear Weapons Programs too. A real pity you didn't fly them over Afghanistan . Could have saved you the spanking you received at the hands of the Taliban & Pakistan & the fact that you had to literally scram with your tails in between your legs .

P.S Reading about French talking about the capabilities of the Rafale @BMD & TEEHEE about the JSF reminds me of this story from the celebrated classic Three Men on a Boat by Jerome K Jerome.

 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,209
2,838
United States
--The issue of how effective the F-35 would be in a classic dogfight often arises. Gen. Hostage noted during our interview that the F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has either made a mistake or been very unlucky. Shooting down other planes using kinetics is only one role of the F-35. Perhaps air forces around the world are going to have to come up with a new honor other than ace to define those who fly the F-35. What should a pilot be awarded for outsmarting the best air defense systems in the world or injecting something like Stuxnet into the enemy’s command and control system? So much of what this aircraft will do has nothing to do with shooting down another pilot that we may need a new term.
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts - Breaking Defense Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


-
LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.

These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.
'A God's Eye View Of The Battlefield:' Gen. Hostage On The F-35 - Breaking Defense Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

So it's his words, a USAF General who was in charged of the F-35 program and knows all of the F-35's classified capabilities, against what you think?

Come on, bruh.


Imagine Stuxnet attacking a multidrop HART or a rtu Modbus without knowing the Modbus address or device id's. It's a bit more than regurgitating internet data. Stuxnet leveraged a nonconfigurable Profibus network, which the rest of the world has moved quite away from. PLC hardware and Military grade firmware is quite different. Hardware firmware can differ in a vast array especially when the systems are unknown. Given the good general or the manufacturers do not provide a single example of this "virus" being able to neutralize a single enemy system, all this is just unsubstantiated bluster. Russian 3M54 class rained down on Syria, and you had ample chances to electronically defeat such systems. Forget military hardware, If an F35 could successfully deliver a virus into a kids Ubuntu OS, the world would be impressed.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,554
968
California
That there is literally some achievement TEEHEE. I mean with such great capabilities all you've to do is keep flying those F-35s in the Persian Gulf while they upload this E Virus into those Nuclear facilities in I ran . Not only would the F-35s never be detected you'd also save your own as well as the Israelis much sweat . Hell, You could avoid initiating another war in the Middle East or possibly WW-III .

A tiny request . While your F-35s are at it , may we request deployment of those magnificent & omniscient F-35s over Pakistan & North Korea too. In case you're wondering why , these nations have clandestine Nuclear Weapons Programs too. A real pity you didn't fly them over Afghanistan . Could have saved you the spanking you received at the hands of the Taliban & Pakistan & the fact that you had to literally scram with your tails in between your legs .

P.S Reading about French talking about the capabilities of the Rafale @BMD & TEEHEE about the JSF reminds me of this story from the celebrated classic Three Men on a Boat by Jerome K Jerome.

original.gif


Spoken like a person who is way over his head on this topic.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,554
968
California
Imagine Stuxnet attacking a multidrop HART or a rtu Modbus without knowing the Modbus address or device id's. It's a bit more than regurgitating internet data. Stuxnet leveraged a nonconfigurable Profibus network, which the rest of the world has moved quite away from. PLC hardware and Military grade firmware is quite different. Hardware firmware can differ in a vast array especially when the systems are unknown. Given the good general or the manufacturers do not provide a single example of this "virus" being able to neutralize a single enemy system, all this is just unsubstantiated bluster. Russian 3M54 class rained down on Syria, and you had ample chances to electronically defeat such systems. Forget military hardware, If an F35 could successfully deliver a virus into a kids Ubuntu OS, the world would be impressed.
You got any source that contradicts what General Hostage is hinting at (without Hostage giving out classified info) when it comes to the F-35's e-virus capability or is it just going to be your opinion against his statement?

You may not like it for reasons I can probably guess (Rafale fan) but people in here are going to have to get used to the fact that the F-35's capabilities are beyond what many in here can comprehend. It truly is the most advanced fighter by far to fly right now and with block 4-5 upgrades it will continue to be the most advanced fighter depending what stage NGAD enters service.

You think nations that are offered the F-35 are just selecting the most scrutinize fighter ever with delay issues just all willy-nilly?

These nations defense officials get the classified briefing which is why every time the F-35 and Rafail is offered they select the F-35.

When zee Germans got the classified briefing the Chief Luftwaffe General got fired for supporting the F-35. Germans knew it would be the kiss of death for their Typhoons if they selected the F-35 so the politicians forced him to leave.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,340
13,267
Mumbai
View attachment 20408

Spoken like a person who is way over his head on this topic.
Seems like we've another storyteller here @Milspec

Someone who effortlessly deals in faction - mixing up facts & fiction on the go, in differing ratios & proportions depending on the occasion. A rather cheerful disposition too full of unbridled optimism about everything American manifesting itself in abuses & insults for those doubting American capabilities including data manipulation while calling out the same in others offering serious competition to our own resident optimist.

I'm loving it.


 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,340
13,267
Mumbai
When zee Germans got the classified briefing the Chief Luftwaffe General got fired for supporting the F-35. Germans knew it would be the kiss of death for their Typhoons if they selected the F-35 so the politicians forced him to leave.
Let me guess - you lent your shoulder to Ze German General but declined his offer to pen a tell all in the interests of NATO solidarity. Quite admirable, I must confess.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,340
13,267
Mumbai
Well, he'd obviously be fired for his indiscretions in any democracy. No armed forces chief gets to openly contradict rhe government's position on a policy matter & be adamant about it. The Germans were already in talks with the French for the 6th Gen FCAS program.

If not that they'd have in all probability gone with their former partners on the Eurofighter Typhoon - the British who've their own 6th Gen program planned out. Too bad your foremost NATO ally didn't see things your way nor patronised your silver bullet.
 

Innominate

Well-Known member
Jun 23, 2021
1,554
968
California
Well, he'd obviously be fired for his indiscretions in any democracy. No armed forces chief gets to openly contradict rhe government's position on a policy matter & be adamant about it. The Germans were already in talks with the French for the 6th Gen FCAS program.

If not that they'd have in all probability gone with their former partners on the Eurofighter Typhoon - the British who've their own 6th Gen program planned out. Too bad your foremost NATO ally didn't see things your way nor patronised your silver bullet.
He wanted what was best for his nation and got canned for it. Also there's no such thing as a European 6th gen fighter since they've never had a 5thgen program. Just because majority of EU nations will fly the F-35 it doesn't make the FCAS a 6th gen especially when you see the supposed capabilities of the FCAS. FCAS, (if it ever enters service) will likely struggle like Typhoon and will enter service very limited just like Typhoon around the 2040's.

Selecting the F-35 would have killed their Typhoon program/jobs and even though the F-35 was going to replace Tornados the F-35 capabilities would have not justify keeping a 4th gen fighter that was very expensive and inferior in the air to air role which is the main role of Typhoon.

It doesn't bother me at all that Germany didn't select the F-35 because it wasn't the F-35's lack of capabilities that caused it to lose but politics. The fact that the people who know what Germany needs for its defense, unlike German politicians, wanted the F-35 says a lot.
 

_Anonymous_

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2017
17,340
13,267
Mumbai
He wanted what was best for his nation and got canned for it. Also there's no such thing as a European 6th gen fighter since they've never had a 5thgen program. Just because majority of EU nations will fly the F-35 it doesn't make the FCAS a 6th gen especially when you see the supposed capabilities of the FCAS. FCAS, (if it ever enters service) will likely struggle like Typhoon and will enter service very limited just like Typhoon around the 2040's.

Selecting the F-35 would have killed their Typhoon program/jobs and even though the F-35 was going to replace Tornados the F-35 capabilities would have not justify keeping a 4th gen fighter that was very expensive and inferior in the air to air role which is the main role of Typhoon.

It doesn't bother me at all that Germany didn't select the F-35 because it wasn't the F-35's lack of capabilities that caused it to lose but politics. The fact that the people who know what Germany needs for its defense, unlike German politicians, wanted the F-35 says a lot.
I'd defer to @Picdelamirand-oil & @BMD

He's taking a piss on European programs i.e the Tempest & FCAS.

Well, to all the French members out here - You were itching to get back at him. I've provided you the opening. Hope you don't let us down.
 

Milspec

सर्वदा शक्तिशाली; सर्वत्र विजय
Moderator
Dec 2, 2017
2,209
2,838
United States
You got any source that contradicts what General Hostage is hinting at (without Hostage giving out classified info) when it comes to the F-35's e-virus capability or is it just going to be your opinion against his statement?

You may not like it for reasons I can probably guess (Rafale fan) but people in here are going to have to get used to the fact that the F-35's capabilities are beyond what many in here can comprehend. It truly is the most advanced fighter by far to fly right now and with block 4-5 upgrades it will continue to be the most advanced fighter depending what stage NGAD enters service.

You think nations that are offered the F-35 are just selecting the most scrutinize fighter ever with delay issues just all willy-nilly?

These nations defense officials get the classified briefing which is why every time the F-35 and Rafail is offered they select the F-35.

When zee Germans got the classified briefing the Chief Luftwaffe General got fired for supporting the F-35. Germans knew it would be the kiss of death for their Typhoons if they selected the F-35 so the politicians forced him to leave.
As I said, If you want to regurgitate data from the internet without using your grey cells, that is completely your choice. I deal with real firmware and industrial comm protocols for a living, if someone tells me an aircraft is going to wirelessly implant Stuxnet type viruses on military equipment which at times has no PLC and can have custom controls, languages, and sensors and infect them without any real demonstration, I am going to say that is highly unlikely. If it indeed is some technology that I cannot comprehend at this point in time, I am more than open to learning something new and be amazed. Until then I will hold my position.

As far as f35, I have nothing against F35''s capabilities, It's a great plane, and I hope IAF/IN opts for a squadron or two if our development programs don't pan out.

Coming back to this virus, I would love to learn more. Please do educate me on how does a virus affects dissimilar systems.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: suryakiran