Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

WHOHE

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Dude try to avoid the 4chan lingo cause it's low-key cringe inducing. You are better off at /k/ if you want to talk like a juvenile. Also there's enough proof of a second pilot going down and being treated at the Pakistani hospital. Also Pakistan literally made there populace believe that osama was never in Abottabad your famed operation was just regular CIA drama. And to the credit of the Pakjabis you have failed to show much proof of Osama's body.
You should not act high and mighty considering Pakistanis screwed you over in Afghanistan and are still screwing you over and for some reason your state department continues to Kowtow to them. So you following Pakistani state line is honestly not surprising.

Also regarding hiding crash sites. An an32 crashed in North East India and couldn't be found. The initial logic because of "muh" smartphones you can't hide crashes is utter crap add on the fact that region is militarised by the great Pakistan Army and the entire state of Pakistan has less press freedom than Indian Kashmir and how controlled their information is regarding their military I don't think that would be the case. Also Pakistan has a history of hiding shootdowns and losses and casualties. You don't just make up story when you have too many circumstantial evidences. While you have to post washington DC shills as some proof. I'd rather believe Indian media than American media since a mig 21 shooting down an f16 would embarrass your MIC guys more than anyone..



I don't want to further derail this thread for some fat corn syrup consuming man-child so let's get back on the topic of you shilling for the f-35 and the French posters shilling for the Rafale..
Advanced US fighters flown by Saudis have been shot down a lot by primitive Houthis yet those get reported coming from a nation that controls its media but somehow Pakistanis and US are collaborating in hiding the shootdown of a not so advanced Viper? You're shitting me, right? Lol.

It didn't happen and you need to get over it, you call scamming skinny.
 

randomradio

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"No one said all 1600+ will be used for radar functions alone. You can even embed T/R modules for other bands without any radar functions. So you can have 1000+ modules functioning as radar and the remaining 600 doing something else entirely."

Frenchy isn't smart enough to think like that he actually thinks the APG-81 only has 1000 T/R modules because he's either dumb or purposely misread the article to make it fit his agenda. He's been corrected.

However the radar on the right is not what's on the Rafale. The actual radar has 1000+ TR modules. And this is actually much more impressive than the F-35's 1600+ TR modules. It's because the Rafale's radar is below 600mm whereas the F-35's radar is 800mm.

If the F-35's radar needs to be on the same level as the Rafale's radar, then it needs 2200 TR modules.

It's no different from pixel density on a smartphone, the Rafale's "PPI" is much greater than the F-35's "PPI" even though the F-35's radar is bigger. It's like the Rafale's radar is a 40" 4K screen while the F-35's radar is a 55" 2K screen. The base technology of the Rafale's radar is a generation ahead due to its more advanced TR module technology. It's the same reason why the Rafale's detection range is merely 20% smaller than the F-22's detection range even though the F-22's radar is more than twice as big. The F-35's TR module tech is simply a more modernised cousin of what's used on the F-22.

It's merely due to its larger size and and more multifunction options that the F-35's radar beats the Rafale's. Once the F4.2 technology comes into play over the next few years, the F-35 will take second place.
 
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Lolwa

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Advanced US fighters flown by Saudis have been shot down a lot by primitive Houthis yet those get reported coming from a nation that controls its media but somehow Pakistanis and US are collaborating in hiding the shootdown of a not so advanced Viper? You're shitting me, right? Lol.

It didn't happen and you need to get over it, you call scamming skinny.
Yeah because they are bunch of insurgents in arab land using AA to shootdown American aircrafts. And that too failing since in most cases they are damaged but still reach back home.
In case of Pakistan it's a early Soviet interceptor shooting down a post cold war multi-role fighter.
Also giving credit to the Saudis. They actually showed the footage of the f15 surviving. In case of Pakistan their is neither existence of the pilot neither the f16 was displayed. And a lot of narrative matters for a failing state like Pakistan since the military is their main hope for sanity. The American dod has no skin in the matter and has never commented about it(since no-one actually has given source actual dod spokespersons speaking). But it's the DC shills who have the most opinion about with no actual source and fabricating statements from US D.O.D. And everybody knows how shameless and immoral U.S journalism is...
Also Americans should be the last one talking about scamming considering how many people you have screwed over...
 
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WHOHE

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However the radar on the right is not what's on the Rafale. The actual radar has 1000+ TR modules. And this is actually much more impressive than the F-35's 1600+ TR modules. It's because the Rafale's radar is below 600mm whereas the F-35's radar is 800mm.

If the F-35's radar needs to be on the same level as the Rafale's radar, then it needs 2200 TR modules.

It's no different from pixel density on a smartphone, the Rafale's "PPI" is much greater than the F-35's "PPI" even though the F-35's radar is bigger. It's like the Rafale's radar is a 40" 4K screen while the F-35's radar is a 55" 2K screen. The base technology of the Rafale's radar is a generation ahead due to its more advanced TR module technology. It's the same reason why the Rafale's detection range is merely 20% smaller than the F-22's detection range even though the F-22's radar is more than twice as big. The F-35's TR module tech is simply a more modernised cousin of what's used on the F-22.

It's merely due to its larger size and and more multifunction options that the F-35's radar beats the Rafale's. Once the F4.2 technology comes into play over the next few years, the F-35 will take second place.
oh boy. No. The current RB2-AA AESA on Rafales does not have 1000+ modules you pulled that claim out of your a s s which is why you didn't post a source to back it up. RB2-AA AESA currently on Rafales (including Indian) are inferior to all US fighter AESA's including the smallest that is on the F-18E in the APG-79 which has more T/R modules. All US fighter AESA's have EW ability unlike the RB2-AA which also lacks GMTI/GMTT capability. All US fighters with Exception to F-15c AESA have GMTI/GMTT capability.

- This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules).

You're the only Rafail fanboy that claims such BS even the Frenchy's at AirDefense-forum make no such claim because they are not that dumb.

Rafail lacks the power and cooling capability of US fighters which is why Rafail AESA are inferior to US and by a lot which the Swiss made a note of it.

Once block 4 technology comes into play over the next few years, the Rafail will still be in third place.
 

randomradio

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oh boy. No. The current RB2-AA AESA on Rafales does not have 1000+ modules you pulled that claim out of your a s s which is why you didn't post a source to back it up. RB2-AA AESA currently on Rafales (including Indian) are inferior to all US fighter AESA's including the smallest that is on the F-18E in the APG-79 which has more T/R modules. All US fighter AESA's have EW ability unlike the RB2-AA which also lacks GMTI/GMTT capability. All US fighters with Exception to F-15c AESA have GMTI/GMTT capability.

- This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules).

You're the only Rafail fanboy that claims such BS even the Frenchy's at AirDefense-forum make no such claim because they are not that dumb.

Rafail lacks the power and cooling capability of US fighters which is why Rafail AESA are inferior to US and by a lot which the Swiss made a note of it.

Once block 4 technology comes into play over the next few years, the Rafail will still be in third place.

RBE-2AA comes with American TR modules, which is why the count is only 800+. It was made for R&D of the radar.

The RBE-2 AESA, which is a different radar, is 1000+ and is what's found on the operational Rafale.

At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).

There's nothing special about Block 4, only comes with a new computer and display. A new radar for the F-35 is expected well after Block 5. Sometime around the mid 2030s. Block 4 is all about foreign weapons and technologies with the same American common hardware. So no new radar.
 

WHOHE

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RBE-2AA comes with American TR modules, which is why the count is only 800+. It was made for R&D of the radar.

The RBE-2 AESA, which is a different radar, is 1000+ and is what's found on the operational Rafale.

At the end of 2006, Thales completed its first active phased array, comprising some 1,000 gallium-arsenide T/R modules manufactured by European firm United Monolithic Semiconductors (UMS).

There's nothing special about Block 4, only comes with a new computer and display. A new radar for the F-35 is expected well after Block 5. Sometime around the mid 2030s. Block 4 is all about foreign weapons and technologies with the same American common hardware. So no new radar.
Nope. Thales has a PR problem.
The RBE-2 AA picture released yesterday by Thales has raised a polemic all around the web. Indeed, the number of modules of the presented antenna is exacly 838, which is almost 20% less than the usually advertised "1000 modules" for this radar.
However it is not known if the picture shows the actual radar. It could be an earlier prototype or a dummy. One thing is sure, though: it is exactly the same antenna (same pattern) as the one shown in the previous pictures of the RBE-2 AA.

The graph on the left is illustrating the asymmetrical pattern of the modules and the number of modules on each of the 36 columns of the antenna.
Rafale News: Thales AESA RBE-2 modules pattern
RBE-2AA_module_pattern.png


This from Thales themselves which is recent than your 2009 source.
-In a radar, an antenna is said to be «active» when it has a single subassembly for amplification of radiated power and pre-amplification of received power. This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules). By controlling each T/R module individually, the active antenna can steer the radar beam at speeds of an electronic chip.
Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar | Thales Group

"ARRAY OF SEVERAL HINDREDS"

Pics don't lie especially when it's a pic of a Rafail with open nose showing its AESA.
Count again, bub.
some%20840%20TR.jpg



As for F-35 block 4.
Sidekick.jpg

F35_0003.jpg


So what have we learned..?

1. RB2 AESA doesn't have 1000+ T/R modules. Pics don't lie but the folks that overhype Spectra as some super duper EW do.
2. RB2 AESA is inferior to US smallest AESA APG-79.
3. RB2 AESA has no EW capability or GMT/GMTI mode It is NOT capable of performing Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground modes simultaneously.
4. F-35 block 4 avionics alone will be superior to Rafail f4.

Btw block 4 will be able to carry hypersonic missiles.
Update: F-35 Block 4 Upgrades and New F-35B At-Sea Users - Naval News
SAS-2019-Lockheed-Martins-Hypervelocity-Missile-for-F-35C-3.jpg
 

randomradio

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Nope. Thales has a PR problem.

Rafale News: Thales AESA RBE-2 modules pattern
View attachment 20385

This from Thales themselves which is recent than your 2009 source.
-In a radar, an antenna is said to be «active» when it has a single subassembly for amplification of radiated power and pre-amplification of received power. This is achieved by the antenna front end, which comprises an array of several hundreds transmit/receive modules (T/R modules). By controlling each T/R module individually, the active antenna can steer the radar beam at speeds of an electronic chip.
Active Electronically Scanned Array - AESA RBE2 radar | Thales Group

"ARRAY OF SEVERAL HINDREDS"

Pics don't lie especially when it's a pic of a Rafail with open nose showing its AESA.
Count again, bub.
View attachment 20386


As for F-35 block 4.
View attachment 20387
View attachment 20388

So what have we learned..?

1. RB2 AESA doesn't have 1000+ T/R modules. Pics don't lie but the folks that overhype Spectra as some super duper EW do.
2. RB2 AESA is inferior to US smallest AESA APG-79.
3. RB2 AESA has no EW capability or GMT/GMTI mode It is NOT capable of performing Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground modes simultaneously.
4. F-35 block 4 avionics alone will be superior to Rafail f4.

Btw block 4 will be able to carry hypersonic missiles.
Update: F-35 Block 4 Upgrades and New F-35B At-Sea Users - Naval News
View attachment 20389

RBE-2AA is not part of the Rafale, it's just a tech demonstrator/prototype meant for R&D. India has a radar with 700+ TRMs and Russia has one with 600+. All these radars are not operational radars.

And GMTI is just a software upgrade. You don't need GMTI for simultaneous A2A and A2G, you need SAR and that's something the Rafale has had since the beginning. RBE-2 AESA in its current form is not meant to have EW capability, it has other dedicated antennas for that. But the new GaN radar will give it all the extra capabilities and more.

As for F-35 Block 4, everything mentioned is what was considered for the Swiss contest, and is a configuration that was decided 2 decades ago. There's nothing new coming in Block 4. At this time, the F-35 also doesn't have EW capability, it's meant for Block 5, ie, post 2030.
 

WHOHE

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RBE-2AA is not part of the Rafale, it's just a tech demonstrator/prototype meant for R&D. India has a radar with 700+ TRMs and Russia has one with 600+. All these radars are not operational radars.

And GMTI is just a software upgrade. You don't need GMTI for simultaneous A2A and A2G, you need SAR and that's something the Rafale has had since the beginning. RBE-2 AESA in its current form is not meant to have EW capability, it has other dedicated antennas for that. But the new GaN radar will give it all the extra capabilities and more.

As for F-35 Block 4, everything mentioned is what was considered for the Swiss contest, and is a configuration that was decided 2 decades ago. There's nothing new coming in Block 4. At this time, the F-35 also doesn't have EW capability, it's meant for Block 5, ie, post 2030.


And about the UAE demand to have a more powerful RBE2 radar, could it answer to some expectations for the Air force?

The Air Force is interested in having a RBE2 with an active antenna. It is now established with the powerful AESA antenna which will equip our tranche 4 Rafale. What the Emirians are calling for is much more complex. They want, in addition to the AESA, to have new functionalities on their Rafale, such as GMTT / GMTI (detection and tracking of moving ground target), interlacing between air/air and air/ground modes, etc.. Even if this is not for us an urgent need, the operational 'plus' obtained could nonetheless eventually interest us. However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar.

But more power to the RBE2, could it be a risk to generate serious electromagnetic interference (EMI) with the SPECTRA receptors ?

There is indeed a very real EMI risk to treat. This is the case whenever we want to change aircraft emission systems. There are solutions, obviously, but this will require to reexamine SPECTRA. But the biggest problem we have identified is about electric generation, which could be insufficient. To increase the maximum range of a few nautical miles, we would have to deeply review the electrical generation system of the aircraft.
In short, to conceive what it could be a Rafale-9, that is to say a new aircraft moving away from the similarity you want with french Rafale. The Emirati experts participating in negotiations are well aware of the problem. But they are also used to have very high quality weapons systems. They want to avoid any regression with the Rafale, at least on the radar range, compared to the F-16 Block 60, the Rafale having also many other qualities. The Emirians don’t have AWACS and therefore want - it is a fundamental requirement - that the Rafale can see very far. Beyond the radar, they are showing fairly strong requirements into SPECTRA development with, for example, the expansion of some frequency bands, an increased sensitivity, adding functionalities; in short, they want we push up the current technologies. Of course, to improve the electronic warfare of our Rafale faster than originally planned could be an additional operational advantage for the Air force. However, our current approach is to consolidate the features implemented in SPECTRA, to make them more robust and make it easier for operators and programmers before wanting to go further into addition of new capabilities. The current SPECTRA is working well and even very good. In sum, what separates us, about Spectra, is a matter of timing and calendar […]. In a more general way, we share the same wishes about capabilities, but with very different maturities calendar sometimes. Budgetary constraints remain a dimensioning factor.

At this time the F-35's EW capability is second to the Growler. F-35's AN/ASQ-239 is superior to Rafail's spectra not to mention the APG-81 EW ability that it actually jammed the F-22's APG-77. All this it can do in block 3F block 4 takes it to another level.
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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At this time the F-35's EW capability is second to the Growler. F-35's AN/ASQ-239 is superior to Rafail's spectra not to mention the APG-81 EW ability that it actually jammed the F-22's APG-77. All this it can do in block 3F block 4 takes it to another level.
Interview in 2010, at this time F-35 EW capability was inexistant.
 

randomradio

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At this time the F-35's EW capability is second to the Growler. F-35's AN/ASQ-239 is superior to Rafail's spectra not to mention the APG-81 EW ability that it actually jammed the F-22's APG-77. All this it can do in block 3F block 4 takes it to another level.

You think relevant articles from 2015 are ancient, but you have no issues bringing in irrelevant articles from an era gone.

If the F-35's EW suite was that good, then the USAF wouldn't have said the F-15EX's new EW suite complements the F-35's.
 
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sunstersun

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"Much speculation has swirled around the question of the F-35’s electronic warfare and electronic attack capabilities. The Air Force has resolutely refused to discuss any specifics. Yet experts have pointed out that, in its most recent EW/EA roadmap, USAF has failed to mention any plans for a dedicated jamming aircraft. It is a conspicuous omission. O’Bryan certainly couldn’t go into the subject of the fighter’s EW/EA suite in any detail, or the way it might coordinate with specialized aircraft such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System, RC-135 Rivet Joint, E-8 JSTARS, or EA-18G Growler jammer aircraft. He did say, however, that F-35 requirements call for it to go into battle with “no support whatever” from these systems. “I don’t know a pilot alive who wouldn’t want whatever support he can get,” O’Bryan acknowledged. “But the requirements that we were given to build the airplane didn’t have any support functions built in. In other words, we had to find the target, ... penetrate the anti-access [defenses], ... ID the target, and ... destroy it by ourselves.” O’Bryan said the power of the F-35’s EW/EA systems can be inferred from the fact that the Marine Corps “is going to replace its EA-6B [a dedicated jamming aircraft] with the baseline F-35B” with no additional pods or internal systems. Asked about the Air Force’s plans, O’Bryan answered with several rhetorical questions: “Are they investing in a big jammer fleet? Are they buying [EA-18G] Growlers?” Then he said, “There’s a capability here.” O’Bryan went on to say that the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.” The F-35’s “sensitivity” and processing power—a great deal of it automated— coupled with the sensor fusion of internal and offboard systems, give the pilot unprecedented situational awareness as well as the ability to detect, locate, and target specific systems that need to be disrupted.


F-35 is better than the Growler at EW.
 
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WHOHE

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You think relevant articles from 2015 are ancient, but you have no issues bringing in irrelevant articles from an era gone.

If the F-35's EW suite was that good, then the USAF wouldn't have said the F-15EX's new EW suite compleme


Statement makes no sense.
Of course it makes no sense because THEY make no sense once you get them talking about specifics and facts about fighters.
 

WHOHE

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"Much speculation has swirled around the question of the F-35’s electronic warfare and electronic attack capabilities. The Air Force has resolutely refused to discuss any specifics. Yet experts have pointed out that, in its most recent EW/EA roadmap, USAF has failed to mention any plans for a dedicated jamming aircraft. It is a conspicuous omission. O’Bryan certainly couldn’t go into the subject of the fighter’s EW/EA suite in any detail, or the way it might coordinate with specialized aircraft such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System, RC-135 Rivet Joint, E-8 JSTARS, or EA-18G Growler jammer aircraft. He did say, however, that F-35 requirements call for it to go into battle with “no support whatever” from these systems. “I don’t know a pilot alive who wouldn’t want whatever support he can get,” O’Bryan acknowledged. “But the requirements that we were given to build the airplane didn’t have any support functions built in. In other words, we had to find the target, ... penetrate the anti-access [defenses], ... ID the target, and ... destroy it by ourselves.” O’Bryan said the power of the F-35’s EW/EA systems can be inferred from the fact that the Marine Corps “is going to replace its EA-6B [a dedicated jamming aircraft] with the baseline F-35B” with no additional pods or internal systems. Asked about the Air Force’s plans, O’Bryan answered with several rhetorical questions: “Are they investing in a big jammer fleet? Are they buying [EA-18G] Growlers?” Then he said, “There’s a capability here.” O’Bryan went on to say that the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.” The F-35’s “sensitivity” and processing power—a great deal of it automated— coupled with the sensor fusion of internal and offboard systems, give the pilot unprecedented situational awareness as well as the ability to detect, locate, and target specific systems that need to be disrupted.


F-35 is better than the Growler at EW.
Yeah General Hostage also hinted of the F-35's electronic virus capability in BreakingDefense article.

-The issue of how effective the F-35 would be in a classic dogfight often arises. Gen. Hostage noted during our interview that the F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has either made a mistake or been very unlucky. Shooting down other planes using kinetics is only one role of the F-35. Perhaps air forces around the world are going to have to come up with a new honor other than ace to define those who fly the F-35. What should a pilot be awarded for outsmarting the best air defense systems in the world or injecting something like Stuxnet into the enemy’s command and control system? So much of what this aircraft will do has nothing to do with shooting down another pilot that we may need a new term.
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts - Breaking Defense Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


-
LANGLEY AFB: If you want to stop a conversation about the F-35 with a military officer or industry expert, then just start talking about its cyber or electronic warfare capabilities.

These are the capabilities that most excite the experts I’ve spoken with because they distinguish the F-35 from previous fighters, giving it what may be unprecedented abilities to confuse the enemy, attack him in new ways through electronics (think Stuxnet), and generally add enormous breadth to what we might call the plane’s conventional strike capabilities.

So I asked Air Force Gen. Mike Hostage, head of Air Combat Command here, about the F-35’s cyber capabilities, mentioning comments by former Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz several years ago about the F-35 having the “nascent capability” to attack Integrated Air Defense Systems (known to you and me as surface to air missiles) with cyber weapons.
'A God's Eye View Of The Battlefield:' Gen. Hostage On The F-35 - Breaking Defense Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary


Rafail fanboys in here are clueless when it comes to the F-35's capability or purposely made themselves clueless because it goes against their narrative of what the F-35 is to them.
You think relevant articles from 2015 are ancient, but you have no issues bringing in irrelevant articles from an era gone.

If the F-35's EW suite was that good, then the USAF wouldn't have said the F-15EX's new EW suite complements the F-35's.
Lol. Huh?
 
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Picdelamirand-oil

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Rafail fanboys in here are clueless when it comes to the F-35's capability or purposely made themselves clueless because it goes against their narrative of what the F-35 is to them.
In any case, the French who know the Rafale are certainly those who best understand the description of the capabilities that the Fail-35 fan-boy attributes to their aircraft, because these capabilities already exist on the Rafale or will be proposed with F-4 while the DOD is struggling to get the Block 3F software to work and to develop Block 4 without managing to converge the development because of the innumerable known anomalies to be corrected and the even greater number of unknown anomalies that are revealed each time one wants to modify something in this pile of shit.
 

BMD

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Of course it does. It means the F-15EX can do things the DEWS cannot. That's the meaning of "complemetary".
Nope, it just means it's complementary in terms of the entire air force. The radar of the F-15EX does slightly better range though. I suppose 001 adds something different to 1 in your opinion.
 
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WHOHE

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Of course it does. It means the F-15EX can do things the DEWS cannot. That's the meaning of "complemetary".
Lets get specific. What is it that YOU think the F-15EX can do that the F-35 can't? And don't say it can carry a huge payload when the F-15EX will never carry a max combatload in war. Desert Storm and Iraq war 2 F-15E's never carried a max combatload not even when IADS were a non issue like in Afghanistan where F-15E's max combat load were 6 bombs 5 were of the 500lb verity GBU-12s, GBU-38s and one centerline GBU-32.

If you start claiming F-15EX EW/avionics is better than F-35 I suggest you don't unless you want to make yourself look even more clueless.
 

WHOHE

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In any case, the French who know the Rafale are certainly those who best understand the description of the capabilities that the Fail-35 fan-boy attributes to their aircraft, because these capabilities already exist on the Rafale or will be proposed with F-4 while the DOD is struggling to get the Block 3F software to work and to develop Block 4 without managing to converge the development because of the innumerable known anomalies to be corrected and the even greater number of unknown anomalies that are revealed each time one wants to modify something in this pile of shit.
Le dude... Your little Rafail gets its a s s handed every time it takes on the F-35 PERIOD! Those are the facts and not opinions like your BS post about 3F not working when it does. Your Rafail is going to fail in Finland just like it failed in Switzerland. You remember Switzerland when you frogs thought Rafail had it in the bag and all of a sudden you got slapped with reality, eh?
 
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